Apple gives a new meaning to solid state.

On 2013.10.26, 11:49 , Alan Browne wrote:
On 2013.10.26, 11:16 , nospam wrote:
In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

You don't have to be a geek to install memory.

depends what you call a geek. most people aren't interested in opening
up the computer to install parts, even if it's easy.

you don't need to be an auto mechanic to change a flat tire but most
people don't want to deal with that either.

But you are probably
right in this case. IIRC Lenovo wanted $240 more for 16gig. I paid
under
$100. I do admit, that I got a deal on it, as I found a place that was
going out of business. Otherwise it owuld have cost me $160, from
Crucial. Still a savings.

apple currently charges $200 for 16 gig ddr3 1600 memory.

Entirely wrong.

If you order a base Mac with 8GB, you get one price.
eg: i7 iMac 3.4 GHz 27": $1,999.00

To "bump" it to 16 GB you pay $200 for 8 GB _more_.
: $2,199.00

So that's $200 for 8 GB more.

it's $200 for 16 gig, which replaces the 8 gig that was in the machine.

Completely wrong.

The original 8 GB is "priced in" to the Mac price. It's the difference
in price from Apple for "8 GB" and "16 GB".

IOW the 8 GB memory they theoretically "remove" goes to another Mac
(they don't actually remove anything, they take SKU's with the right
config from the shelf).

Apple prices for upgraded memory:

8 mo 16 - 8 = 8. So 8 more = $200 which is $25/GB.

24 mo 32 - 8 = 24. So 24 more = $400 which is $16.67 / GB.


OTOH, I ordered 16 GB from Crucial:

24 mo 24 - 8 = 16. So 16 more = $185 which is 11.56 / GB.[1]

16 more, I meant to write.

To match the Apple scenario out of Crucial:

8 mo 16 - 8 = 8. So 8 more = $100 which is $12.50 / GB.[1]


No matter how you look at it, buying extra memory from Apple is
expensive compared to reliable 3rd party vendors like Crucial. There
are others such as OWC - but in my case they were a little more
expesnive than Crucial. (I've ordered from them in the past).

[1]: incl. S&H to Canada. In the US it would be less.



--
"Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another."
-Ambrose Bierce

On 10/26/2013 11:16 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

you don't need to be an auto mechanic to change a flat tire but most
people don't want to deal with that either.

But they deal with it.

no they don't.

they hire someone else to deal with it by calling aaa or a local tow.

You are missing that many people want the
optional ability to change the tire, or open the laptop themselves, or
to have the person of their choice do it for them. The new laptops take
away that option.

not that many are interested in opening it or even know what to do if
they do open it.

should it need servicing, they take it to a repair shop.

it's just like a car. some people tinker on their own cars but most
don't, even for minor stuff.


You are missing the point. They want the option of taking it to a local
guy, the manufacturer's "authorized" place, doing it themselves, or
scrapping it.
I had a HD crash and, while I do know how to replace it and reinstall
the OS, I chose to find a local guy who would do the whole job for me in
a day. I could have sent it to other places, including the authorized HP
dealer, but they would have taken longer.
You are missing that people want to have options.



But you are probably
right in this case. IIRC Lenovo wanted $240 more for 16gig. I paid under
$100. I do admit, that I got a deal on it, as I found a place that was
going out of business. Otherwise it owuld have cost me $160, from
Crucial. Still a savings.

apple currently charges $200 for 16 gig ddr3 1600 memory.

So. If I decide I wnat to upgrade my memory after the purchase, what is
my option?

you max it out when you buy it. that's what most people do anyway.



Where is your support for that statement?


--
PeterN

On 10/26/2013 11:16 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

For some strange reason, I like the option, to be able to replace. I
don't like having replacement forced on me.

nothing is forced on anyone.

What are my options when the battery goes?
must I get a new machine, or can the battery be easily replaced?

it's very easily replaced. take it to an apple store and it's replaced
while you wait. not a big deal, especially since it only needs to be
done once every 5 years or so.

there might also be third party repair shops that offer battery
replacement services.

if either isn't convenient for some reason, apple can dispatch a box
for overnight delivery.

it may also be possible to replace the battery yourself with nothing
more than a screwdriver, depending on which macbook it is.

keep in mind that the battery is rated for 5 years and will normally
outlive the computer.

in 5 years you will more than likely want a new computer and there's a
good chance you will have already replaced it by that time anyway.

in other words, this is a lot of noise over nothing.

also keep in mind that by having an internal battery, the laptop is
thinner, lighter and more reliable, something that the user benefits
from every single day, versus being able to swap the battery once in
five years, which is something they might never actually do.

and let's not forget that apple isn't the only company moving to
internal batteries, for the very same reasons.

if you want to bash apple over this, you must also bash many other pc
makers, including microsoft, as well as smartphone makers, video camera
makers, bluetooth headset makers and the list goes on and on.

what happens when the battery in my spendy bluetooth headset fails? can
i replace it? nope. it's not even an option and there's no way to open
it either, without major damage. it really *is* disposable.

I suspect that "most
people," and I exclude the gaming crowd, use their computers solely for
Internet browsing, email and occasional word processing. The tablets
changed that somewhat, by making low cost specialized apps available.

many people do little more than that, which is why an ipad works out
well for them. a laptop and certainly a desktop is overkill.

for those who are doing stuff like 3d rendering, video editing, etc.,
they can get a more powerful workstation for those tasks and fall back
to an ipad for the simpler stuff. use the best tool for the job.

it also won't be all that long until some of the more sophisticated
stuff will be done on mobile devices.

What do you mean by "sophisticated stuff?"

did you not read the examples i gave?

My point is that from a
purely functional standpoint, an old e-machine would do what a lot of
user want to do. If they wnat a new machine just to play, fine. They
should have the option.

everyone has options.


Not to replace the battery. The lack of options will certainly be
factored into my purchase decision.

A few years ago I went to a Honda dealer, who may have been related to
you. He told me the car he had for me had all the extras I needed.
Needless to say he did not make the sale.
That is my real option. If enough people feel asI do, Apple will change
their policies. If not, I will get what I want from a competitor, or
make an informed purchase.

--
PeterN

On 2013.10.26, 11:49 , Alan Browne wrote:

The original 8 GB is "priced in" to the Mac price. It's the difference
in price from Apple for "8 GB" and "16 GB".

IOW the 8 GB memory they theoretically "remove" goes to another Mac
(they don't actually remove anything, they take SKU's with the right
config from the shelf).

Apple prices for upgraded memory:

8 mo 16 - 8 = 8. So 8 more = $200 which is $25/GB.

24 mo 32 - 8 = 24. So 24 more = $400 which is $16.67 / GB.


OTOH, I ordered 16 GB from Crucial:

16 mo 24 - 8 = 16. So 16 more = $185 which is 11.56 / GB.[1]

Oops - another error. The total delivered cost to me in Canada was
$173.99. So $10.85 per GB.

--
"Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another."
-Ambrose Bierce

On 10/26/2013 11:27 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2013.10.26, 11:05 , PeterN wrote:
On 10/26/2013 10:47 AM, Alan Browne wrote:

snip


Another possibility is buying from parts brokers. There are risks (no
traceability (certificates) to manufacturer) therebecause parts are
"re-labled" by unsavoury types to look more qualified (esp. temperature
range) than they really are. We would pay screening houses to take in
the parts and qualify them for us. This would drive the cost of a $100
part to $300 - $500 plus tooling costs ($5000 - $25,000 per run). End
customer pays, of course.


Traceability of structural parts is an FAA requirement. I would be very
surprised if that was not a military requirement for avionics.

Oh Peter. You're so charmingly innocent!

Not at all. I've seen a lot of things going on in my lifetime. In my
practice I have had FAA certified shops and aircraft parts suppliers as
clients and friends. I just didn't want to stray too far off topic. ;-)


Traceability is absolutely a requirement in civil and military avionics
whether for safety-of-life or performance/reliability reasons.

What a concept. If only it worked.

Unfortunately even the highest qualified parts do not last long in the
market and they have to be procured in irregular fashion. For such, the
parts can be screened as described above and the screening co. (who
might even be us, but we'd much rather sub it) issues the test results
for each part. If it meets the end requirement, fine. If it does not.
(Say a -55C requirement part stops working at -45C) then you so inform
the US gov't buyer and he issues a waiver on a case by case basis or a
waiver to requirements for the entire system production run.

For commercial avionics (excluding entertainment systems and such), in
the absence of traceable parts, then the avionics builder can qualify
the part much as above. In DO-160 electronics such qualification is
quite expensive. And then again the assembled system needs to pass
DO-160E qualification again (at least for temperature and vibration and
maybe humidity and some parts of the many electrical effects if the part
is in the i/o section of the system).

It would take a very long explanation in any real detail and there are
exceptions and qualifiers galore.


I know of at least one case where an FAA certified shop was offered
substantial money to certify a part, without inspection. My friend,
declined the offer, in a not very polite fashion. I imagine there might
be some unethical shops around.

--
PeterN

On 2013.10.26, 12:22 , PeterN wrote:
On 10/26/2013 11:27 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2013.10.26, 11:05 , PeterN wrote:
On 10/26/2013 10:47 AM, Alan Browne wrote:

snip


Another possibility is buying from parts brokers. There are risks (no
traceability (certificates) to manufacturer) therebecause parts are
"re-labled" by unsavoury types to look more qualified (esp. temperature
range) than they really are. We would pay screening houses to take in
the parts and qualify them for us. This would drive the cost of a $100
part to $300 - $500 plus tooling costs ($5000 - $25,000 per run). End
customer pays, of course.


Traceability of structural parts is an FAA requirement. I would be very
surprised if that was not a military requirement for avionics.

Oh Peter. You're so charmingly innocent!

Not at all. I've seen a lot of things going on in my lifetime. In my
practice I have had FAA certified shops and aircraft parts suppliers as
clients and friends. I just didn't want to stray too far off topic. ;-)


Traceability is absolutely a requirement in civil and military avionics
whether for safety-of-life or performance/reliability reasons.

What a concept. If only it worked.

Unfortunately even the highest qualified parts do not last long in the
market and they have to be procured in irregular fashion. For such, the
parts can be screened as described above and the screening co. (who
might even be us, but we'd much rather sub it) issues the test results
for each part. If it meets the end requirement, fine. If it does not.
(Say a -55C requirement part stops working at -45C) then you so inform
the US gov't buyer and he issues a waiver on a case by case basis or a
waiver to requirements for the entire system production run.

For commercial avionics (excluding entertainment systems and such), in
the absence of traceable parts, then the avionics builder can qualify
the part much as above. In DO-160 electronics such qualification is
quite expensive. And then again the assembled system needs to pass
DO-160E qualification again (at least for temperature and vibration and
maybe humidity and some parts of the many electrical effects if the part
is in the i/o section of the system).

It would take a very long explanation in any real detail and there are
exceptions and qualifiers galore.


I know of at least one case where an FAA certified shop was offered
substantial money to certify a part, without inspection. My friend,
declined the offer, in a not very polite fashion. I imagine there might
be some unethical shops around.

You imagine correctly. It has been relatively common in the US for a
long time. If shop A won't, shop R will.

No need to be impolite about it. There is a procedure for such and will
be glad to train you at no cost: Just say "no".

It was less common in Canada because TC (formerly MOT) were bears. But
over the past 10 years or so TC have "delegated" quality to the shops to
be self certifying with far fewer inspections. TC verified that your
quality processes were correct and that the director of quality reports
only to the president (owner) of the co. and nobody else, etc.

This can only lead to marginal shops cutting corners.

--
"Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another."
-Ambrose Bierce

On 2013-10-26 15:16:26 +0000, nospam said:

In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

Some people like the ability to add new memory.

very few do so after purchase.

What's Apple charging these days, $500 a gig?

about $12/gig for ddr3 1600, competitive with most ram vendors.

Wrong.

Apple charge $200 to bump from the included 8 GB to 16 GB. An 8 GB bump.

That's $25/GB.

you are buying 16 gig chips.

you are not buying 8 gig that goes into a spare slot, keeping the
existing 8 gig. you are replacing the 8 gig with 16 gig, and have 8
left over if you do it yourself.

on the macbooks that had 2 slots, apple used lower density chips in
both rather than one high density chip in one leaving the other empty,
so if you wanted to upgrade, you had to remove both chips.

Apple has been notorious for overpricing RAM, and has been sticking it
to the non-geek buying a larger RAM configuration on custom builds.
They also made things awkward for the geek. On the iMac I am currently
using, a 3.6 GHz i5 delivered with 8GB of 1333MHz DDR3 it has each of
the 4 slots populated with 4 x 2GB cards. That fills all 4 slots, when
they could have just as easily used 2 x 4GB cards making a user upgrade
easier with just a purchase of another 2 x 4GB to fill the empty slots.
Only OWC takes used RAM in trade, Apple doesn't & Crucial doesn't.

Folks like you, Alan, & me have no problem making these changes, but
the average buyer is being exploited by Apple, and I have been an Apple
user and supporter of all things Apple since 1983 starting with my
Apple][e, and that is my observation.

Apple has been making the options for user servicing for stuff such as
RAM upgrades(replacing bad RAM), replacing/upgrading optical drives,
HDD/SSD tougher with each new model. the new MacBooks are just the next
step in the progression.
It seems that with this trend of moving to a disposable laptop, Apple
should consider extending their standard warranty, but I suspect this
will be a major selling point for AppleCare which will repair a failing
new generation MacBook by replacing it.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2013-10-26 16:12:16 +0000, PeterN said:

On 10/26/2013 11:16 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

For some strange reason, I like the option, to be able to replace. I
don't like having replacement forced on me.

nothing is forced on anyone.

What are my options when the battery goes?
must I get a new machine, or can the battery be easily replaced?

it's very easily replaced. take it to an apple store and it's replaced
while you wait. not a big deal, especially since it only needs to be
done once every 5 years or so.

there might also be third party repair shops that offer battery
replacement services.

if either isn't convenient for some reason, apple can dispatch a box
for overnight delivery.

it may also be possible to replace the battery yourself with nothing
more than a screwdriver, depending on which macbook it is.

keep in mind that the battery is rated for 5 years and will normally
outlive the computer.

in 5 years you will more than likely want a new computer and there's a
good chance you will have already replaced it by that time anyway.

in other words, this is a lot of noise over nothing.

also keep in mind that by having an internal battery, the laptop is
thinner, lighter and more reliable, something that the user benefits
from every single day, versus being able to swap the battery once in
five years, which is something they might never actually do.

and let's not forget that apple isn't the only company moving to
internal batteries, for the very same reasons.

if you want to bash apple over this, you must also bash many other pc
makers, including microsoft, as well as smartphone makers, video camera
makers, bluetooth headset makers and the list goes on and on.

what happens when the battery in my spendy bluetooth headset fails? can
i replace it? nope. it's not even an option and there's no way to open
it either, without major damage. it really *is* disposable.

I suspect that "most
people," and I exclude the gaming crowd, use their computers solely for
Internet browsing, email and occasional word processing. The tablets
changed that somewhat, by making low cost specialized apps available.

many people do little more than that, which is why an ipad works out
well for them. a laptop and certainly a desktop is overkill.

for those who are doing stuff like 3d rendering, video editing, etc.,
they can get a more powerful workstation for those tasks and fall back
to an ipad for the simpler stuff. use the best tool for the job.

it also won't be all that long until some of the more sophisticated
stuff will be done on mobile devices.

What do you mean by "sophisticated stuff?"

did you not read the examples i gave?

My point is that from a
purely functional standpoint, an old e-machine would do what a lot of
user want to do. If they wnat a new machine just to play, fine. They
should have the option.

everyone has options.


Not to replace the battery. The lack of options will certainly be
factored into my purchase decision.

A few years ago I went to a Honda dealer, who may have been related to
you. He told me the car he had for me had all the extras I needed.
Needless to say he did not make the sale.
That is my real option. If enough people feel asI do, Apple will change
their policies. If not, I will get what I want from a competitor, or
make an informed purchase.

This is beginning to sound like the guy who advises trading a car
because the ashtray is full, or the gas tai is empty.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article ,
says...

On 10/25/13 8:43 PM, in article
2013102518431477254-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
wrote:

On 2013-10-26 01:00:40 +0000, "MC" said:

nospam wrote:


how many people repair their own laptops? not very many.

Maybe not but they should be, at least, repairable or servicable
without it being cheaper to buy a new one. Come on, at least you
should be able to replace a battery, especially at the price these
products sell for. I mean, they are hardly disposable... or are they?
If so, clever Apple for reeling in those with more money than sense.

Still, Apple is Apple and there will always be the brand whores who
will buy their products, whatever the cost and design. And, I suppose,
that is Apple's strength. Their business model relys on being cult
status and having "brainwashed" their users over the years into
believing their products are better than anything else, when really
they are not. Good luck to them, I say, although the easily led will
not fall for it forever.

MC

It seems that for the sceptic future MacBook buyers, buying AppleCare
is going to be pushed by Apple and other official resellers.

As far as I am concerned, my MBP 17'' is tough as nails, and still
works just fine, and realistically I don't really have a need for
another laptop as my iPad is pretty much filling that role these days.
If anything, one of these days I will probably upgrade to a new 128GB
iPad and keep my battered old MBP for those other odd traveling tasks.

Here is what my battered MBP looks like after taking a drop out of a
case onto my driveway. Not pretty, but it works just fine.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil...IMG_0382Ew.jpg


OUCH!

Looks like Apple actually hired a metallurgist. I remember the first
magnesium-famed laptop I ever saw. It was in a CompUSA and was in
several pieces after somebody dropped it and the cast magnesium did what
cast magnesium does.

In article , am says...

| I suspect that "most
| people," and I exclude the gaming crowd, use their computers solely for
| Internet browsing, email and occasional word processing. The tablets
| changed that somewhat, by making low cost specialized apps available.
|
| many people do little more than that, which is why an ipad works out
| well for them. a laptop and certainly a desktop is overkill.
|

I don't think it's entirely an issue of what one does. Tablets
are being *marketed* as the more modern replacement for
PCs, but they're just a different tool.

There are the millions of people who don't demand a lot
from their computer, but who do use it a lot for work: students,
academics, scientists, office workers, writers, business
people..... the millions of people who need to use office
software, or other specialized tools. Many of those tools
can work on a tablet, or even on a phone. They don't require
a lot of CPU power, RAM, etc. The issue is not the power
of a tablet but rather simple ergonomics: A large screen,
a good keyboard and a good chair that supports good posture
are the most important factors for anyone who's going to
spend 3 hours writing a paper.

(Though of course college students can get away with
abusing their bodies to some extent, writing term papers
while flopped in a beanbag chair or overstuffed sofa. There's
probably a suite of iCollege apps on the iPhone for iThem,
allowing them to iWrite all of their iPapers without ever
sitting iUp.

Hey, I still do my best work on the overstuffed sofa. There's a nice
office down the hall with several computers, a couple of large monitors,
and a very nice office chair. But I generally use it by RDPing into it
from the living room (there's a computer there connected to the TV).