Advice on monochrome process

"Mark" wrote in message
...
I'm looking for comments on the following tentative
archival
monochrome sheet film (4x5) and paper processing routines
to see if
there are any issues or improvements I can make. For now
I will
standardize on T-Max 100 developed in water-jacked trays
(I realize
temperature and consistent technique are critical), and
for paper I
will normally use fiber-based Oriental grade 2 developed
in Dektol.
I've surfed and read and besides a headache I found lots
of opinions,
including this 1987 article by John Sexton on Tmax 100
processed at
75F, where he gives processing tips:

http://largeformatphotography.info/a...xton-tmax.html

I still have to determine my personal film
speed/development time but
I have John Sexton's time/temp in here for now in case
someone has an
opinion on the dilution/time/temp for normal development.


Processing T-Max 100 sheet film, normal development

Water presoak 1-3 minutes @ ~75F
Developer: T-MaxRS 1:15, 13 minutes @75F
Water Rinse 30 seconds
Fixer: TF-4 Rapid Fixer 5-6 minutes @~70F
Water Rinse (necessary?)
Kodak Hypo Clearing stock 1:4 3 minutes ~70F
Water Rinse (necessary?)
Archival Wash in Zone VI washer 15 minutes
Kokak Photo Flo ¼ cap in 16oz. distilled water


Processing fiber base paper with Selenium toning

Dektol 1:3 2½ minutes @ 70F
Water Rinse 30 seconds
Fixer 1: TF-4 Rapid Fix 1 minute ~70F
Water rinse 2 minutes
Cold water storage
Fixer 2: TF-4 1 minutes ~70F
Kodak Rapid Selenium 3-5 minutes ~75F -temp?
(1 part selenium:4 parts Hypo clearing working solutin) -
too weak?
Kodak Hypo Clearing stock 1:4 3 minutes ~70
Water rinse 3 minutes
Archival Wash in Zone VI washer 60 minutes

I'm not sure about the rapid fixer as opposed to Hypo
going into the
selenium. I appreciate any feedback because as you know
there are
lots of methods and things may have changed since the 30
year old
Ansel Adams and Fred Picker books were published!

Mark

I am not convinced about pre-soaks. There is really no
necessity for them.
T-Max RS is a good developer similar to other Phenidone
and Hydroquinone developers like Ilford Microphen. The
normal dilution is 1 part concentrate to 4 parts water. This
stock can be diluted 1:1 with water to get longer
development times. For normal tanks development times of
around 6 minutes minimum are desirable to insure uniform
development. Also longer times are easier to control. Follow
the times and agitation technique in the Kodak data booklet
when starting. The charts are for a target contrast about
right for contact printing or diffusion enlarging. In a
condenser enlarger it may be desirable to reduce negative
contrast by about one paper grade. For T-Max film this
requires about a %20 to %25 reduction of time and a
consequent increase of about 3/4 stop of exposure. T-Max
gains contrast faster than conventional films so its
important to have good control of development rate.
I am also not convinced about so called alkaline
processing. An acid stop bath will stop development
instantly. If you want to use a water rinse it should
consist of two or three changes of water with vigorous
agitation. About three minutes are needed to remove the bulk
of the developer from the emulsion.
T-Max will fix in Sodium Thiosulfate fixer but a two bath
system is necessary to insure complete fixing. Total fixing
time of about 10 to 12 minutes is necessary with half the
time in each bath. For faster fixing use a "Rapid" fixer at
film strength. There is some controversey as to whether a
two bath fixing system is needed when using rapid fixer. I
prefer to use one because it insures complete fixing. You
can use a non-hardening fixer if you choose. T-Max emulsion
is similar to color film emulsion in that it is hardened to
take 100F processing and does not really need hardening in
the fixing bath.
A rinse between fixer and wash aid is not necessary but
the capacity of the wash aid is considerably extended with
the rinse. I use wash aid as a one shot so a rinse is of no
consequence.
Kodak recommends 1 to 2 minutes treatment in Kodak Hypo
Clearing Agent followed by a five minute wash. This is
sufficient. If you are going to treat your negatives with
Kodak Brown Toner to protect the image a longer wash is
permissible. The reason for limiting the wash time is that a
very small trace of hypo left in the emulsion has been found
to act as a stabilizer, helping to prevent oxidation of the
silver. The toner is a much more effective treatment and is
the current standard method for microfilm. Kodak Rapid
Selenium Toner at high dilutions has been found not to
provide adequate protection.
When toning film or prints in KBT use a solution of 10%
sodium sulfite, or stock strength KHCA as a stop/clearing
bath. This will prevent after toning in the wash and prevent
staining. A one minute treatment is enough.


For fiber paper:
Dektol should not be diluted more than 1:2. While older
instructions show dilutions up to 1:4 the higher dilutions
have less capacity and tend to produce weak blacks. Kodak
recommends 2 minutes as a target time for most of its (all
discontinued now) fiber papers. Varying the development time
can make up to some degree for errors in exposure but the
range is not great.
Again, I don't like water rinses and think they really
have no advantage.
Paper fixes out faster than you think but Dave Valvo,
formerly a division manager at Kodak, tells me that longer
fixing times are necessary for fiber paper because of small
amounts of halide which gets into the substrate. You can
check for completeness of fixing by using a Sodium sulfide
test solution or a 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium
Toner (works only where prints are well washed). Neither
solution should produce a visible stain after a 3 minute
period.
KHCA will neutralize the acid in acid fixing baths
eliminating the advantage of shorter washing times of
alkaline or neutral baths. Treat double weight paper for 3
to 4 minutes as specified. The short wash times following
this treatment are due to the same consideration of residual
hypo above.
For best permenance treat prints with Kodak Brown Toner.
KBT, and other Polysulfide toners, tone all densities evenly
so that partial toning provides protection to all parts of
the image. The use of KRST at 1:19, as long recommended, has
been found to leave the light density parts of the image
with insufficient protection. If used at a dilution of no
more than 1:9, and for a minimuj of three minutes, KRST will
tone print highlights sufficiently to protect them but will
cause a noticable change in image color. AT this time there
is no really effective treatment which does not change the
appearance of the image to some extent. Agfa Sistan (now
discontinued) is a stablizing agent (Potassium thiocyanate
in a wetting agent) which provides significant protection
without any change in image color or density but it is not
as effective as a toner.
Any sulfiding toner or KRST will provide excellent image
protection if allowd to tone to completion, however, this
results in a sepia color print.
Rapid fixer has relatively little advantage for print
emulsions but may be convenient. As for film use a two bath
system to insure complete fixing. The capacity of a single
sodium thiosulfate bath for archival fixing is extremely
limited, Kodak and Ilford give figures of 10 8x10 prints per
_gallon_. A two bath system will extend this from 4 to 10
times. The use of KHCA will further extend the capicity
because it makes some otherwise insoluble halide soluble.
Conventional processing with fresh chemicals will result
in film and prints capable of 'archival" life. However, for
long term survival storage is very important. Even properly
processed materials are still vulnerable to strong oxidizers
and sulifdes in the atmosphere.
Another toner suitable for image protection is Gold. Gold
toners are standard for microfilm but are expensive. Gold
tends toward a blue image. On neutral or cold tone papers it
produces a little intensification with little color change.
On warm tone papers it tends toward a more vivid blue but
never as vivid as Iron-blue toner.

To summarize: If you follow conventional processing and
use conventional materials you will have pretty permanent
results. Its simply not necessary to jump through hoops or
use unusual procedures or solutions.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

I cannot disagree with Richard on any point here, except that I do use
a pre-wet with roll film. I would also recommend hanger and tank
processing of sheet film, not tray processing.

I also strongly recommend acid rapid fixers preceded by acid stop
baths. I would never use hypo today. Never.

Richard Knoppow wrote:
"Mark" wrote in message
...
I'm looking for comments on the following tentative
archival
monochrome sheet film (4x5) and paper processing routines
to see if
there are any issues or improvements I can make. For now
I will
standardize on T-Max 100 developed in water-jacked trays
(I realize
temperature and consistent technique are critical), and
for paper I
will normally use fiber-based Oriental grade 2 developed
in Dektol.
I've surfed and read and besides a headache I found lots
of opinions,
including this 1987 article by John Sexton on Tmax 100
processed at
75F, where he gives processing tips:

http://largeformatphotography.info/a...xton-tmax.html

I still have to determine my personal film
speed/development time but
I have John Sexton's time/temp in here for now in case
someone has an
opinion on the dilution/time/temp for normal development.


Processing T-Max 100 sheet film, normal development

Water presoak 1-3 minutes @ ~75F
Developer: T-MaxRS 1:15, 13 minutes @75F
Water Rinse 30 seconds
Fixer: TF-4 Rapid Fixer 5-6 minutes @~70F
Water Rinse (necessary?)
Kodak Hypo Clearing stock 1:4 3 minutes ~70F
Water Rinse (necessary?)
Archival Wash in Zone VI washer 15 minutes
Kokak Photo Flo ¼ cap in 16oz. distilled water


Processing fiber base paper with Selenium toning

Dektol 1:3 2½ minutes @ 70F
Water Rinse 30 seconds
Fixer 1: TF-4 Rapid Fix 1 minute ~70F
Water rinse 2 minutes
Cold water storage
Fixer 2: TF-4 1 minutes ~70F
Kodak Rapid Selenium 3-5 minutes ~75F -temp?
(1 part selenium:4 parts Hypo clearing working solutin) -
too weak?
Kodak Hypo Clearing stock 1:4 3 minutes ~70
Water rinse 3 minutes
Archival Wash in Zone VI washer 60 minutes

I'm not sure about the rapid fixer as opposed to Hypo
going into the
selenium. I appreciate any feedback because as you know
there are
lots of methods and things may have changed since the 30
year old
Ansel Adams and Fred Picker books were published!

Mark

I am not convinced about pre-soaks. There is really no
necessity for them.
T-Max RS is a good developer similar to other Phenidone
and Hydroquinone developers like Ilford Microphen. The
normal dilution is 1 part concentrate to 4 parts water. This
stock can be diluted 1:1 with water to get longer
development times. For normal tanks development times of
around 6 minutes minimum are desirable to insure uniform
development. Also longer times are easier to control. Follow
the times and agitation technique in the Kodak data booklet
when starting. The charts are for a target contrast about
right for contact printing or diffusion enlarging. In a
condenser enlarger it may be desirable to reduce negative
contrast by about one paper grade. For T-Max film this
requires about a %20 to %25 reduction of time and a
consequent increase of about 3/4 stop of exposure. T-Max
gains contrast faster than conventional films so its
important to have good control of development rate.
I am also not convinced about so called alkaline
processing. An acid stop bath will stop development
instantly. If you want to use a water rinse it should
consist of two or three changes of water with vigorous
agitation. About three minutes are needed to remove the bulk
of the developer from the emulsion.
T-Max will fix in Sodium Thiosulfate fixer but a two bath
system is necessary to insure complete fixing. Total fixing
time of about 10 to 12 minutes is necessary with half the
time in each bath. For faster fixing use a "Rapid" fixer at
film strength. There is some controversey as to whether a
two bath fixing system is needed when using rapid fixer. I
prefer to use one because it insures complete fixing. You
can use a non-hardening fixer if you choose. T-Max emulsion
is similar to color film emulsion in that it is hardened to
take 100F processing and does not really need hardening in
the fixing bath.
A rinse between fixer and wash aid is not necessary but
the capacity of the wash aid is considerably extended with
the rinse. I use wash aid as a one shot so a rinse is of no
consequence.
Kodak recommends 1 to 2 minutes treatment in Kodak Hypo
Clearing Agent followed by a five minute wash. This is
sufficient. If you are going to treat your negatives with
Kodak Brown Toner to protect the image a longer wash is
permissible. The reason for limiting the wash time is that a
very small trace of hypo left in the emulsion has been found
to act as a stabilizer, helping to prevent oxidation of the
silver. The toner is a much more effective treatment and is
the current standard method for microfilm. Kodak Rapid
Selenium Toner at high dilutions has been found not to
provide adequate protection.
When toning film or prints in KBT use a solution of 10%
sodium sulfite, or stock strength KHCA as a stop/clearing
bath. This will prevent after toning in the wash and prevent
staining. A one minute treatment is enough.


For fiber paper:
Dektol should not be diluted more than 1:2. While older
instructions show dilutions up to 1:4 the higher dilutions
have less capacity and tend to produce weak blacks. Kodak
recommends 2 minutes as a target time for most of its (all
discontinued now) fiber papers. Varying the development time
can make up to some degree for errors in exposure but the
range is not great.
Again, I don't like water rinses and think they really
have no advantage.
Paper fixes out faster than you think but Dave Valvo,
formerly a division manager at Kodak, tells me that longer
fixing times are necessary for fiber paper because of small
amounts of halide which gets into the substrate. You can
check for completeness of fixing by using a Sodium sulfide
test solution or a 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium
Toner (works only where prints are well washed). Neither
solution should produce a visible stain after a 3 minute
period.
KHCA will neutralize the acid in acid fixing baths
eliminating the advantage of shorter washing times of
alkaline or neutral baths. Treat double weight paper for 3
to 4 minutes as specified. The short wash times following
this treatment are due to the same consideration of residual
hypo above.
For best permenance treat prints with Kodak Brown Toner.
KBT, and other Polysulfide toners, tone all densities evenly
so that partial toning provides protection to all parts of
the image. The use of KRST at 1:19, as long recommended, has
been found to leave the light density parts of the image
with insufficient protection. If used at a dilution of no
more than 1:9, and for a minimuj of three minutes, KRST will
tone print highlights sufficiently to protect them but will
cause a noticable change in image color. AT this time there
is no really effective treatment which does not change the
appearance of the image to some extent. Agfa Sistan (now
discontinued) is a stablizing agent (Potassium thiocyanate
in a wetting agent) which provides significant protection
without any change in image color or density but it is not
as effective as a toner.
Any sulfiding toner or KRST will provide excellent image
protection if allowd to tone to completion, however, this
results in a sepia color print.
Rapid fixer has relatively little advantage for print
emulsions but may be convenient. As for film use a two bath
system to insure complete fixing. The capacity of a single
sodium thiosulfate bath for archival fixing is extremely
limited, Kodak and Ilford give figures of 10 8x10 prints per
_gallon_. A two bath system will extend this from 4 to 10
times. The use of KHCA will further extend the capicity
because it makes some otherwise insoluble halide soluble.
Conventional processing with fresh chemicals will result
in film and prints capable of 'archival" life. However, for
long term survival storage is very important. Even properly
processed materials are still vulnerable to strong oxidizers
and sulifdes in the atmosphere.
Another toner suitable for image protection is Gold. Gold
toners are standard for microfilm but are expensive. Gold
tends toward a blue image. On neutral or cold tone papers it
produces a little intensification with little color change.
On warm tone papers it tends toward a more vivid blue but
never as vivid as Iron-blue toner.

To summarize: If you follow conventional processing and
use conventional materials you will have pretty permanent
results. Its simply not necessary to jump through hoops or
use unusual procedures or solutions.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

Richard Knoppow wrote (in part):

I am not convinced about pre-soaks. There is really no
necessity for them.

I favor a pre-soak, but the reason should be understood because, depending
on your processing technique, it may be unnecessary.

The only benefit I get, that cannot be obtained any other way, is the
freedom from air bells that make undesired problems in the developed
negative. With a pre-wet, the film may have air bells on it to begin with,
but these are of no consequence because plain water is an ineffective
developing agent. Once the agitation has been completed and the film
thoroughly wet (I use a 5-minute pre-wet in a Jobo processor), I then
process the film. With the film so thoroughly wet, no air bells are created.

It seems to me that if you could give sufficiently vigorous agitation from
the get-go, and if the development time is sufficiently long (perhaps by
diluting the developer more than usual), the effects of the air bells would
be so small as to be inconsequential, but when doing things in my Jobo, the
time for a pre-wet does not matter to me.

Now do not just start doing a pre-wet, or just stop doing one. If you do,
the development time will almost certainly need to be changed, so you might
wish to recalibrate your process.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 21:10:00 up 17 days, 12:38, 4 users, load average: 4.21, 4.15, 4.12

"UC" wrote in message
oups.com...
I cannot disagree with Richard on any point here, except
that I do use
a pre-wet with roll film. I would also recommend hanger and
tank
processing of sheet film, not tray processing.

I also strongly recommend acid rapid fixers preceded by acid
stop
baths. I would never use hypo today. Never.

Richard Knoppow wrote:

Pre-soaks are somtimes necessary. JOBO recommends them
when using their developing system and Kodak suggests it for
tray processing of sheet film to prevent sticking.
I certainly agree about using tanks for sheet film but
sometimes tray processing is unavoidable. I find it very
difficult to do tray processing without getting some
scratches or gouges on the film no matter what technique I
use. I use this process when I have a single sheet to do and
am in a rush. Otherwise I use drums for film larger than 4x5
and an ancient Nikor sheet film tank for 4x5. The problem
with conventional tanks and hangers is that they take up a
lot of room and are best suited to permanent darkrooms. This
system has its own set of vices such as a tendency toward
uneven development and streaking if the agitation is not
done right. Ideally (if one has lots of space and money) a
Nitrogen burst agiatation system is the way to go.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

Correct. I used to get air bells from time to time. Now, with pre-wet,
I never get them.


Jean-David Beyer wrote:
Richard Knoppow wrote (in part):

I am not convinced about pre-soaks. There is really no
necessity for them.

I favor a pre-soak, but the reason should be understood because, depending
on your processing technique, it may be unnecessary.

The only benefit I get, that cannot be obtained any other way, is the
freedom from air bells that make undesired problems in the developed
negative. With a pre-wet, the film may have air bells on it to begin with,
but these are of no consequence because plain water is an ineffective
developing agent. Once the agitation has been completed and the film
thoroughly wet (I use a 5-minute pre-wet in a Jobo processor), I then
process the film. With the film so thoroughly wet, no air bells are created.

It seems to me that if you could give sufficiently vigorous agitation from
the get-go, and if the development time is sufficiently long (perhaps by
diluting the developer more than usual), the effects of the air bells would
be so small as to be inconsequential, but when doing things in my Jobo, the
time for a pre-wet does not matter to me.

Now do not just start doing a pre-wet, or just stop doing one. If you do,
the development time will almost certainly need to be changed, so you might
wish to recalibrate your process.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 21:10:00 up 17 days, 12:38, 4 users, load average: 4.21, 4.15, 4.12

TF-4 is a fine fixer and, to my knowledge, allows you to go directly from
fix to KSRT. See the technical articles at www.heylloyd.com

Thanks for the Lloyd link - he's an interesting guy. Lots of detail
and things to think about there. He's definitely not into any acid in
his process.

He has a point about processing prints to completion (instead of
holding a bunch for later toning) so he can keep adjusting exposure
for the final result. But once you have it down and you want to make
some stock duplicates you may want to save the toning for later. So
you would need cold storage.

Richard,

Wow, thanks for all the info. I'll look into all your suggestions,
and I'm curious about the effect of the Brown Toner you recommend.

KHCA will neutralize the acid in acid fixing baths
eliminating the advantage of shorter washing times of
alkaline or neutral baths. Treat double weight paper for 3
to 4 minutes as specified. The short wash times following
this treatment are due to the same consideration of residual
hypo above.

Assuming I go with selenium toning, it appears the KHCA after fixing
is mainly to neutralize the acid fixer before toning, because the
fixer itself doesn't matter in the toner. After the toning, I would
need another treatment in KHCA to remove any traces of fixer though,
right?

I take it you would disagree with this acid-free process that Lloyd
Erlick uses (although he credits you on his website):

http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/wb/acid_free_r.htm

He eliminates steps by using no stop bath and plain fixer (sodium
thiosulfate/sodium sulfite), which supports the right PH for toning.

Mark

TF-4 is a fine fixer and, to my knowledge, allows you to go directly from
fix to KSRT. See the technical articles at www.heylloyd.com

Thanks for the Lloyd link - he's an interesting guy. Lots of detail
and things to think about there. He's definitely not into any acid in
his process.


Lloyd's on this newsgroup and will probably pop his head in here :-)

Although I haven't adopted all his ideas, I really like his single-tray
processing.

Mark wrote:

I'd love to hold the prints after developing, but you know the room
lights would come on. Are you saying the prints are safe after
stopping, or do you have a 'wet' paper safe?!


Hold them in the stop. What do you mean by "... the room
lights would come on."?
I process single tray using minimal volumes of
one-shot developer and very dilute one-shot fixer. The
very dilute fixer has sufficient volume to yield archival results
with one fix. I may or may not include a rinse twixt the developer
and fixer. If I were to hold I'd likely do it after the developer and
use a very dilute sulfite-bisulfite blend. The blend would be
a little acidic and good for up to four prints which would
go on to be batch fixed. Dan

Richard Knoppow wrote (in part):

KHCA will neutralize the acid in acid fixing baths
eliminating the advantage of shorter washing times of
alkaline or neutral baths. Treat double weight paper for 3
to 4 minutes as specified. The short wash times following
this treatment are due to the same consideration of residual
hypo above.

As I recall, Ansel Adams suggested rinsing prints after final fix in a 2%
Kodalk bath prior to selenium toning to neutralize the residual acidity, and
I do that. I suppose it is not all that critical what you use, and you might
as well choose whether Kodalk or sodium metabisulphite is cheaper.

Of course, belt and suspenders guy that he was, he _also_ put KHCA in his KRST.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 06:35:00 up 17 days, 22:03, 4 users, load average: 4.49, 4.26, 4.14