Exposing Velvia

Any hints?

When using Velvia 50 in a lot of cases I find the sky gets burnt out
but shadows are rather dark so stopping down is not an option. I am
exposing to try and get decent detail in the sky and shadows.

Any suggestions? Get a bit more radical with graduated filters perhaps?
Note that I I'm not adverse to using filters I just don't like pictures
that scream 'graduated filter' when you look at them.


--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

"Peter Chant" wrote in message
...
Any hints?

When using Velvia 50 in a lot of cases I find the sky gets burnt out
but shadows are rather dark so stopping down is not an option. I am
exposing to try and get decent detail in the sky and shadows.

Any suggestions? Get a bit more radical with graduated filters perhaps?
Note that I I'm not adverse to using filters I just don't like pictures
that scream 'graduated filter' when you look at them.


I reckon Velvia 50 has the narrowest tonal range of any slide film I use,
and if the range from highlight to shadow is too great in the scene, there's
not much you can do about it. Some people expose Velvia at iso 40 to reduce
the saturation, but this won't really help much with the high contrast, but
try it and see: asking your lab for a 1/3 pull on such rolls _may_ help.
I know one person who exposes at iso 32 with no pull, but he reckons this
works with sheet film but not with smaller formats.

I pretty much always use a spot meter to expose Velvia, so I can at least
ensure nothing burns out, but this is often at the cost of a conscious
decision to sacrifice shadow detail. Since burnt out highlights are so
unattractive, this is usually the preferable way to go. If the only
highlight giving problems is the sky (or some similar 'block' of brighter
light) then the ND grad. can be the answer. To avoid the obvious look, I
aim to select a grad. that will leave the sky at least one stop brighter
than the foreground - ie. if there is a three stop difference, I'd try not
to use more than a two stop grad. Since you are only trying to control
over-bright skies, rather than produce a deliberate 'saturated sky' effect,
a one stop ND grad. may well often be enough. Use the spot-meter to work
out how strong a filter you need.

(While Lee and Singh Ray both sell grad.s in one stop intervals, both will
make them in half stop intervals too to special order.)

You can also shoot two frames at different exposures and combine the sky of
one with the foregrund of the other in PhotoShop. More work than using ND
grad.s, but if the sky edge is too convoluted to use a grad. it can be an
alternative.

Other than that, try a different film... I find Velvia 100F has very nearly
as much saturation as Velvia 50, but is a little less contrasty. You might
get half a stop more range, so give a roll a try and see if it helps. Kodak
E100VS is even more saturated, but emphasises different colours - it too
seems to me slightly less contrasty than Velvia 50, though not by much.



Peter

In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

I reckon Velvia 50 has the narrowest tonal range of any slide film I use,
and if the range from highlight to shadow is too great in the scene, there's
not much you can do about it. Some people expose Velvia at iso 40 to reduce
the saturation, but this won't really help much with the high contrast, but
try it and see: asking your lab for a 1/3 pull on such rolls _may_ help.
I know one person who exposes at iso 32 with no pull, but he reckons this
works with sheet film but not with smaller formats.

I had on my older camera shot slide films at a slightly lower ASA than
rated as it helped scanning. Trouble is, I like projecting as well!


I pretty much always use a spot meter to expose Velvia, so I can at least
ensure nothing burns out, but this is often at the cost of a conscious
decision to sacrifice shadow detail. Since burnt out highlights are so
unattractive, this is usually the preferable way to go. If the only
highlight giving problems is the sky (or some similar 'block' of brighter
light) then the ND grad. can be the answer. To avoid the obvious look, I
aim to select a grad. that will leave the sky at least one stop brighter
than the foreground - ie. if there is a three stop difference, I'd try not
to use more than a two stop grad. Since you are only trying to control
over-bright skies, rather than produce a deliberate 'saturated sky' effect,
a one stop ND grad. may well often be enough. Use the spot-meter to work
out how strong a filter you need.

I was spot metering the shadows and sky and tried to pitch the exposure
for the middle.


(While Lee and Singh Ray both sell grad.s in one stop intervals, both will
make them in half stop intervals too to special order.)

I have a set of 3 cokin p grands in differing strengths.


You can also shoot two frames at different exposures and combine the sky of
one with the foregrund of the other in PhotoShop. More work than using ND
grad.s, but if the sky edge is too convoluted to use a grad. it can be an
alternative.


Good idea, more work and not so hot for projection however.

Other than that, try a different film... I find Velvia 100F has very nearly
as much saturation as Velvia 50, but is a little less contrasty. You might
get half a stop more range, so give a roll a try and see if it helps. Kodak
E100VS is even more saturated, but emphasises different colours - it too
seems to me slightly less contrasty than Velvia 50, though not by much.


Thanks for all that. It looks like I ought to be really chosy over when
I shoot Velvia 50, or perhaps use another film as you suggest. Otherwise
a bit of careful grad use, as you suggest.


--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

"Peter Chant" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

I reckon Velvia 50 has the narrowest tonal range of any slide film I
use,
and if the range from highlight to shadow is too great in the scene,
there's
not much you can do about it. Some people expose Velvia at iso 40 to
reduce the saturation, but this won't really help much with the high
contrast, but try it and see: asking your lab for a 1/3 pull on such
rolls
_may_ help. I know one person who exposes at iso 32 with no pull,
but he reckons this works with sheet film but not with smaller formats.

I had on my older camera shot slide films at a slightly lower ASA than
rated as it helped scanning. Trouble is, I like projecting as well!

Yeah - for that you need to shoot an extra exposure of everything... I
expose Velvia at 50 and it scans _OK_ - not as easily as many films, but
OK. But this is with a Minolta Scan Multi Pro, which is unfortunately an
expensive machine. What scanning software do you use? I find Vuescan is
good.


I pretty much always use a spot meter to expose Velvia, so I can at
least
ensure nothing burns out, but this is often at the cost of a conscious
decision to sacrifice shadow detail. Since burnt out highlights are so
unattractive, this is usually the preferable way to go. If the only
highlight giving problems is the sky (or some similar 'block' of
brighter
light) then the ND grad. can be the answer. To avoid the obvious look,
I aim to select a grad. that will leave the sky at least one stop
brighter
than the foreground - ie. if there is a three stop difference, I'd try
not
to use more than a two stop grad. Since you are only trying to control
over-bright skies, rather than produce a deliberate 'saturated sky'
effect,
a one stop ND grad. may well often be enough. Use the spot-meter to
work out how strong a filter you need.

I was spot metering the shadows and sky and tried to pitch the exposure
for the middle.


With a lot of slide films you can meter the highlights and set an exposure
up to 2 1/2 stops, maybe 2 2/3, below that without them burning out. With
Velvia 50 I reckon you can't really go below about 2 stops under. That'll
hold the highlights and give you about three stops down for shadows. If the
scene's tonal range is more than five stops you can't keep both without a
grad. If you are going for the middle, you may well be 2 1/2 to 3 stops
below the highlights, and for Velvia this is too much, unfortunately.


(While Lee and Singh Ray both sell grad.s in one stop intervals, both
will
make them in half stop intervals too to special order.)

I have a set of 3 cokin p grands in differing strengths.


Ditto. I have to say I didn't find the Cokin ones that great: they seem to
me to have a slight magenta cast. For 35mm (and smaller Medium Format
lenses) I've replaced my Cokin NDs with Singh Ray ones, which are extremely
nice - but painfully expensive. I still use Cokin for the B&W contrast
filters and some other things though, where they fine, and the price is much
nicer. For most Medium Format I use Lee, which are also expensive, but do
crop up on *Bay from time to time (those morons who sell them thinking that
because they've gone digital they don't need filters any more - poor
schmucks.)


You can also shoot two frames at different exposures and combine the
sky of one with the foregrund of the other in PhotoShop. More work
than using ND grad.s, but if the sky edge is too convoluted to use a
grad. it can be an alternative.


Good idea, more work and not so hot for projection however.

Yes, no good for projection, and it is a lot of work. Still, if you want to
have a tree in front of a sunset, and not have the tree a silhouette (or
blasted by fill-flash) it can be the only answer - on any film.


Other than that, try a different film... I find Velvia 100F has very
nearly
as much saturation as Velvia 50, but is a little less contrasty. You
might
get half a stop more range, so give a roll a try and see if it helps.
Kodak
E100VS is even more saturated, but emphasises different colours - it too
seems to me slightly less contrasty than Velvia 50, though not by much.


Thanks for all that. It looks like I ought to be really chosy over when
I shoot Velvia 50, or perhaps use another film as you suggest. Otherwise
a bit of careful grad use, as you suggest.


I am unlikely ever to go out with only Velvia 50 with me, because it is so
picky. Usually if I am using it I'll have at least two bodies with me, more
often three, with E100VS in another, and maybe Portra 160NC - which is very
low contrast (but not a slide film, of course.) If I am taking only one
film type, and it is slide, it is much more likely to be Velvia 100F than
the original 50, but even then I wouldn't do that on a bright-sun day, where
the contrast will tend to be high. (Since V100F came out I hardly use
Provia outside the studio anymore.)

Since you already spot-meter and use grad.s, I think you'll get this sorted
out fine - it is just a metter of knowing that Velvia is very unforgiving!



Peter

In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

Yeah - for that you need to shoot an extra exposure of everything... I
expose Velvia at 50 and it scans _OK_ - not as easily as many films, but
OK. But this is with a Minolta Scan Multi Pro, which is unfortunately an
expensive machine. What scanning software do you use? I find Vuescan is
good.

Vuescan and an Acer ScanWitt. Spec seems ok but one of the cheaper and
lesser known scanners. In deep shadows scanner noise starts to appear
if you try to lift any detail out on dark slides. Works well provided
you have a reasonable slide or neg. I use Vuescan. Unfortunately
multipass scanning does not seem reliable.

With a lot of slide films you can meter the highlights and set an exposure
up to 2 1/2 stops, maybe 2 2/3, below that without them burning out. With
Velvia 50 I reckon you can't really go below about 2 stops under. That'll
hold the highlights and give you about three stops down for shadows. If the
scene's tonal range is more than five stops you can't keep both without a
grad. If you are going for the middle, you may well be 2 1/2 to 3 stops
below the highlights, and for Velvia this is too much, unfortunately.

I really out to do a bit of experimentation in a controlled manner.

Since you already spot-meter and use grad.s, I think you'll get this sorted
out fine - it is just a metter of knowing that Velvia is very unforgiving!


Thanks for all that. It sounds like I ought to stick with Velvia 50
but use it were extream care.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

Yeah - for that you need to shoot an extra exposure of everything... I
expose Velvia at 50 and it scans _OK_ - not as easily as many films, but
OK. But this is with a Minolta Scan Multi Pro, which is unfortunately an
expensive machine. What scanning software do you use? I find Vuescan is
good.

Vuescan and an Acer ScanWitt. Spec seems ok but one of the cheaper and
lesser known scanners. In deep shadows scanner noise starts to appear
if you try to lift any detail out on dark slides. Works well provided
you have a reasonable slide or neg. I use Vuescan. Unfortunately
multipass scanning does not seem reliable.

With a lot of slide films you can meter the highlights and set an exposure
up to 2 1/2 stops, maybe 2 2/3, below that without them burning out. With
Velvia 50 I reckon you can't really go below about 2 stops under. That'll
hold the highlights and give you about three stops down for shadows. If the
scene's tonal range is more than five stops you can't keep both without a
grad. If you are going for the middle, you may well be 2 1/2 to 3 stops
below the highlights, and for Velvia this is too much, unfortunately.

I really out to do a bit of experimentation in a controlled manner.

Since you already spot-meter and use grad.s, I think you'll get this sorted
out fine - it is just a metter of knowing that Velvia is very unforgiving!


Thanks for all that. It sounds like I ought to stick with Velvia 50
but use it were extream care.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

Yeah - for that you need to shoot an extra exposure of everything... I
expose Velvia at 50 and it scans _OK_ - not as easily as many films, but
OK. But this is with a Minolta Scan Multi Pro, which is unfortunately an
expensive machine. What scanning software do you use? I find Vuescan is
good.

Vuescan and an Acer ScanWitt. Spec seems ok but one of the cheaper and
lesser known scanners. In deep shadows scanner noise starts to appear
if you try to lift any detail out on dark slides. Works well provided
you have a reasonable slide or neg. I use Vuescan. Unfortunately
multipass scanning does not seem reliable.

With a lot of slide films you can meter the highlights and set an exposure
up to 2 1/2 stops, maybe 2 2/3, below that without them burning out. With
Velvia 50 I reckon you can't really go below about 2 stops under. That'll
hold the highlights and give you about three stops down for shadows. If the
scene's tonal range is more than five stops you can't keep both without a
grad. If you are going for the middle, you may well be 2 1/2 to 3 stops
below the highlights, and for Velvia this is too much, unfortunately.

I really out to do a bit of experimentation in a controlled manner.

Since you already spot-meter and use grad.s, I think you'll get this sorted
out fine - it is just a metter of knowing that Velvia is very unforgiving!


Thanks for all that. It sounds like I ought to stick with Velvia 50
but use it were extream care.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

"Peter Chant" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

Yeah - for that you need to shoot an extra exposure of everything... I
expose Velvia at 50 and it scans _OK_ - not as easily as many films,
but OK. But this is with a Minolta Scan Multi Pro, which is
unfortunately an expensive machine. What scanning software do you
use? I find Vuescan is good.

Vuescan and an Acer ScanWitt. Spec seems ok but one of the cheaper
and lesser known scanners. In deep shadows scanner noise starts to
appear if you try to lift any detail out on dark slides. Works well
provided
you have a reasonable slide or neg. I use Vuescan. Unfortunately
multipass scanning does not seem reliable.

Shadow noise is the bane of scanning with Velvia, so you may well need to
expose for slightly thinner slides - but then you have the trouble with
blown highlights even worse... The Minolta's good shadow performance is one
of its best points. I know _of_ the ScanWitt, but have never used one - I
know it's supposed to be very good for the money.


With a lot of slide films you can meter the highlights and set an
exposure
up to 2 1/2 stops, maybe 2 2/3, below that without them burning out.
With Velvia 50 I reckon you can't really go below about 2 stops under.
That'll hold the highlights and give you about three stops down for
shadows. If the scene's tonal range is more than five stops you can't
keep both without a grad. If you are going for the middle, you may well
be 2 1/2 to 3 stops below the highlights, and for Velvia this is too
much,
unfortunately.

I really out to do a bit of experimentation in a controlled manner.

Probably well worth it...


Since you already spot-meter and use grad.s, I think you'll get this
sorted
out fine - it is just a metter of knowing that Velvia is very
unforgiving!


Thanks for all that. It sounds like I ought to stick with Velvia 50
but use it were extream care.

Yeah, tricky stuff but worth playing with. I must admit I use Velvia 100F
much more now, but 50 does still have slightly more saturation - a wonder
for food photography, or an overcast day in the woods...



Peter

"Peter Chant" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Bandicoot" writes:

Yeah - for that you need to shoot an extra exposure of everything... I
expose Velvia at 50 and it scans _OK_ - not as easily as many films,
but OK. But this is with a Minolta Scan Multi Pro, which is
unfortunately an expensive machine. What scanning software do you
use? I find Vuescan is good.

Vuescan and an Acer ScanWitt. Spec seems ok but one of the cheaper
and lesser known scanners. In deep shadows scanner noise starts to
appear if you try to lift any detail out on dark slides. Works well
provided
you have a reasonable slide or neg. I use Vuescan. Unfortunately
multipass scanning does not seem reliable.

Shadow noise is the bane of scanning with Velvia, so you may well need to
expose for slightly thinner slides - but then you have the trouble with
blown highlights even worse... The Minolta's good shadow performance is one
of its best points. I know _of_ the ScanWitt, but have never used one - I
know it's supposed to be very good for the money.


With a lot of slide films you can meter the highlights and set an
exposure
up to 2 1/2 stops, maybe 2 2/3, below that without them burning out.
With Velvia 50 I reckon you can't really go below about 2 stops under.
That'll hold the highlights and give you about three stops down for
shadows. If the scene's tonal range is more than five stops you can't
keep both without a grad. If you are going for the middle, you may well
be 2 1/2 to 3 stops below the highlights, and for Velvia this is too
much,
unfortunately.

I really out to do a bit of experimentation in a controlled manner.

Probably well worth it...


Since you already spot-meter and use grad.s, I think you'll get this
sorted
out fine - it is just a metter of knowing that Velvia is very
unforgiving!


Thanks for all that. It sounds like I ought to stick with Velvia 50
but use it were extream care.

Yeah, tricky stuff but worth playing with. I must admit I use Velvia 100F
much more now, but 50 does still have slightly more saturation - a wonder
for food photography, or an overcast day in the woods...



Peter