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#1
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Lith film emulation
Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all P. |
#2
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Lith film emulation
"piterengel" wrote in message ps.com... Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all P. The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective" development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff. There are somewhat lower contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide, which produce very high contrast but not quite what a true lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith developer is needed unless you are doing true line work. Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get it outside of the US. For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than the usual film developers but at the cost of being quite grainy. Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I would try one first to see if the contrast is high enough. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#3
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Lith film emulation
On 2007-10-21, Richard Knoppow wrote:
"piterengel" wrote in message ps.com... Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all P. The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective" development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff. I use Kodak litho film (not much) and one of their litho developers. It does not contain liquid formaldehyde, but paraformaldehyte that is a related compound. J.T.Baker have this to say about it: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p0154.htm As far as I can tell, I have never had any trouble with the mixed working strength developer. There are somewhat lower contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide, which produce very high contrast but not quite what a true lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith developer is needed unless you are doing true line work. Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get it outside of the US. For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than the usual film developers but at the cost of being quite grainy. Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I would try one first to see if the contrast is high enough. -- .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 15 days, 1:56, 1 user, load average: 5.22, 5.55, 5.14 |
#4
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Lith film emulation
"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message .. . On 2007-10-21, Richard Knoppow wrote: "piterengel" wrote in message ps.com... Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all P. The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective" development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff. I use Kodak litho film (not much) and one of their litho developers. It does not contain liquid formaldehyde, but paraformaldehyte that is a related compound. J.T.Baker have this to say about it: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p0154.htm As far as I can tell, I have never had any trouble with the mixed working strength developer. There are somewhat lower contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide, which produce very high contrast but not quite what a true lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith developer is needed unless you are doing true line work. Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get it outside of the US. For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than the usual film developers but at the cost of being quite grainy. Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I would try one first to see if the contrast is high enough. -- .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 15 days, 1:56, 1 user, load average: 5.22, 5.55, 5.14 Actually, D-85 uses paraformaldehyde, which is a crystaline form and becomes formaldehyde in solution. It is a two solution developer, the two parts being mixed just before use. I don't know if there is a more environmentally friendly substance that can be used in stead of the paraformaldehyde. Its function in the developer is not as a hardener but specifically to promote infectious developemt. This causes dense areas to develop much more rapidly than lower densities resulting in exagerated contrast. For the most part lithographic developers were used for line work where the negative needed to be either very high density or clear. Lith developers are also currently used for lith printing. This is a sort of special effect which has become popular in the last decade or so. A Google search for lith printing will give you lots of hits. For just higher than normal contrast on pictorial film I think less extreme developers will work fine. One can use something like Kodak D-8 or D-11 but, as I mentioned before, probably any print developer will be enough. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#5
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Lith film emulation
On Oct 22, 3:05 pm, "Richard Knoppow" wrote:
"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in omain... On 2007-10-21, Richard Knoppow wrote: "piterengel" wrote in message oups.com... Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all P. The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective" development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff. I use Kodak litho film (not much) and one of their litho developers. It does not contain liquid formaldehyde, but paraformaldehyte that is a related compound. J.T.Baker have this to say about it: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p0154.htm As far as I can tell, I have never had any trouble with the mixed working strength developer. There are somewhat lower contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide, which produce very high contrast but not quite what a true lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith developer is needed unless you are doing true line work. Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get it outside of the US. For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than the usual film developers but at the cost of being quite grainy. Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I would try one first to see if the contrast is high enough. -- .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 15 days, 1:56, 1 user, load average: 5.22, 5.55, 5.14 Actually, D-85 uses paraformaldehyde, which is a crystaline form and becomes formaldehyde in solution. It is a two solution developer, the two parts being mixed just before use. I don't know if there is a more environmentally friendly substance that can be used in stead of the paraformaldehyde. Its function in the developer is not as a hardener but specifically to promote infectious developemt. This causes dense areas to develop much more rapidly than lower densities resulting in exagerated contrast. For the most part lithographic developers were used for line work where the negative needed to be either very high density or clear. Lith developers are also currently used for lith printing. This is a sort of special effect which has become popular in the last decade or so. A Google search for lith printing will give you lots of hits. For just higher than normal contrast on pictorial film I think less extreme developers will work fine. One can use something like Kodak D-8 or D-11 but, as I mentioned before, probably any print developer will be enough. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA I've already tried ID-13 with Ilford Delta 100 film to obtain "line art" pictures but result was totally wrong. Maybe I've to use stronger developer, with paraformaldehyde in composition, together with a low sensibility film. Thanks for all hints. P. |
#6
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Lith film emulation
On Oct 21, 11:35 am, piterengel wrote:
Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all - P. A variety of lith films are available here in the USA. Lith films are slow orthochromatic films which are processed in well lighted darkrooms; the same level of lighting used to process Graded Paper. Any film I'd think would lith process. Panchromatic film processing would be done in complete darkness. So, slow ortho films are used. As for developer a very low sulfite carbonate plus hydroquinone mix will likely work well; does for paper. Dan |
#7
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Lith film emulation
As regards not using (para)formaldehyde for lithographic
film development I have tacked to the corkboard in the darkroom: Kodak D-8 Richard Knoppow provided also, this formula which dispenses with paraformaldehyde. Richard's formula is as follows: Water (90 degrees F) 750 ml 7 oz Sodium Sulfite (anh) 90 gm 3 tsp Hydroquinone 45 gm 3 tsp Let cool before adding Sodium Hydroxide 38 gm 1.5 tsp Potassium Bromide 30 gm 2 oz 10% soln Water to make 1 litre 8 oz Richard notes that the solution should be stirred thoroughly before use. He also suggests that a less alkaline version which will give nearly as much contrast can be obtained by reducing the amount of Hydroxide to 28 grams per liter. He also wisely notes that one should be very careful mixing the hydroxide as it produces a lot of heat going into solution and can cause boiling and splattering. Hydroxide should only be added to COLD solutions. To Use with Films: Mix 2 parts stock solution and 1 part water. I added the 8 oz make-up - about right for a few sheets of 4x5 in a tray. The paper on the corkboard doesn't list its provenance, but it appears he http://members.iinet.net.au/~forbes/lithdev.html with the additional comment: To Use for Lith Printing: I'm going to experiment with this developer and post my preferred dilutions for lith printing. Until I do, I suggest that you consult Tim Rudman's book for ideas on diluting it for use in printing. I use this stuff with lith film and it works well, not as dramatic and dense as Kodalith A/B but certainly workable. The _original_ formula was obviously: Water (90 degrees F) 24 oz Sodium Sulfite (anh) 3 oz avdp Hydroquinone 1.5 oz avdp Sodium Hydroxide 1 oz avdp Potassium Bromide 1 oz avdp Water to make 1 quart Formulae with 85.1 gm of this and 38.35 gm of that give the impression that titrations of great precision were used in determining the optimum amounts. The amounts only look funny because they got converted to metric, rounded (or not) and then tweaked with 'and extra 10 ml or so' yielding numbers like 38.35 ml. The quantities used when the formula was developed are obviously a jigger or this, a splash of that and a teaspoon of the other. When making it up there is no need to be any more precise. == Nicholas O. Lindan Cleveland Engineering Design, LLC Cleveland, Ohio 44121 |
#8
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Lith film emulation
wrote in message ups.com... On Oct 21, 11:35 am, piterengel wrote: Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all - P. A variety of lith films are available here in the USA. Lith films are slow orthochromatic films which are processed in well lighted darkrooms; the same level of lighting used to process Graded Paper. Any film I'd think would lith process. Panchromatic film processing would be done in complete darkness. So, slow ortho films are used. As for developer a very low sulfite carbonate plus hydroquinone mix will likely work well; does for paper. Dan Lithographic films were made in all spectral sensitivies, pan films were used for making half-tone plates for three or four color letterpress reproduction. The main property of lith films which differentiates them for pictorial films is their contrast. The contrast of a film depends on certain features of its emulsion, mostly the range of sensitivities of the silver halide particals which make it up. Pictorial film has wide range of halide sensitivity, lith film a very narrow range. So, for a lith film the difference between an exposure which results in full development and one which does not expose a partical enough to develop it is very small. The result is that the image is essentially either full density or none. Lith film was used originall for photo-mechanical reproduction of line or half-tone work, the latter using a screen. The original half-tone process used a variation of the wet-plate Collodion process because the senstive coating (not an emulsion) could be very high contrast and was very thin which maintained the sharpness of the dots or lines. Later various types of lithographic dry plates were used including some with the half-tone screen built in. There were also a variety of "commercial" films, often blue sensitive but also ortho or panchromatic, meant for very high contrast but lower than the lith films. All of this stuff has been replaced by digital methods for photo-mechanical purposes but lith film remains because it is used in a number of alternative photographic processes and for special effects such as masking. The lith developers using Paraformaldehide must be low sulfite because sulfite interfers with the infectious development property. Infectious development is the accelerating development of silver halide particals near a developing one. This produces a sort of chain reaction which results in very high density and very high contrast. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#9
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Lith film emulation
"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote
Water (90 degrees F) 750 ml 7 oz Oops, that should be 5 oz -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com |
#10
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Lith film emulation
"Richard Knoppow" wrote:
... but lith film remains because it is used in a number of alternative photographic processes and for special effects such as masking. Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA Check your local printing supply outlets or visit via the WWW Valley Litho, a Mid West mail order supplier of a vast selection of press room supplies including a large selection of lith - half tone process films and developers. Should add, also a somewhat unique assortment of film, paper, and darkroom supplies. Dan |
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