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sulfite solution and hydroquinone



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 19th 07, 11:50 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
sreenath
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone

Hi All,

While going through an old book on Photography by
L.P.Clerc(Photography: theory and practice), I came across the
following interesting piece:

"Sulfite solutions do not keep well, therefore preparation of solution
is not advised. If absolutely necessary, a 20 percent solution can be
prepared and a small quantity (5 %) of either p-aminophenol or
hydroquinone can be added to protect the sulfite solution."

I forget the exact words, but the above is the essence.

I am really surprised. I have always assume that it is sulfite that
protects developing agents like hydroquinone and aminophelos, and here
I see the opposite.

So when we prepare D-76 and D-72, are we protecting the hydroquinone
or the sulfite!!??

rgds,
Sreenath

  #2  
Old June 19th 07, 12:13 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone

On Jun 19, 3:50 am, sreenath wrote:
Hi All,

While going through an old book on Photography by
L.P.Clerc(Photography: theory and practice), I came across the
following interesting piece:

"Sulfite solutions do not keep well, therefore preparation of solution
is not advised. If absolutely necessary, a 20 percent solution can be
prepared and a small quantity (5 %) of either p-aminophenol or
hydroquinone can be added to protect the sulfite solution."

I forget the exact words, but the above is the essence.

I am really surprised. I have always assume that it is sulfite that
protects developing agents like hydroquinone and aminophelos, and here
I see the opposite.

So when we prepare D-76 and D-72, are we protecting the hydroquinone
or the sulfite!!??

rgds,
Sreenath


One problem with Clerk is that there are no attributions or
citations. Sulfite slowly absorbs oxygen becoming Sodium Sulfate. In a
developer or fixing bath its affinity for oxygen is used to protect
other chemicals by preferential absorption. Hydroquinone and Metol are
also oxygen absorbers but, like you, I've never heard of adding any
to a Sulfite solution to preserve it.
Generally, the more concentrated a sulfite solution it the longer
it will last. Probably the best way to preserve a sulfite solution is
to keep it in a closed, sealed container of some material which does
not allow air to pass through. Glass is best but some high density
plastics are nearly as good.
The various editions of Clerk's books have a lot of good stuff
in them but, IMO, the lack of citations and references severely limits
them.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

  #3  
Old June 19th 07, 02:04 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Jean-David Beyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone

Richard Knoppow wrote:

One problem with Clerk is that there are no attributions or
citations. Sulfite slowly absorbs oxygen becoming Sodium Sulfate. In a
developer or fixing bath its affinity for oxygen is used to protect
other chemicals by preferential absorption. Hydroquinone and Metol are
also oxygen absorbers but, like you, I've never heard of adding any
to a Sulfite solution to preserve it.
Generally, the more concentrated a sulfite solution it the longer
it will last. Probably the best way to preserve a sulfite solution is
to keep it in a closed, sealed container of some material which does
not allow air to pass through. Glass is best but some high density
plastics are nearly as good.
The various editions of Clerk's books have a lot of good stuff
in them but, IMO, the lack of citations and references severely limits
them.

The only copy of L.P. Clerc I have seen is an English translation in two
volumes. These seem to be intended for English students who want a career in
photography. I know some color illustrations (all of them) are missing,
though referred to in the text. Could it be that a French edition would
contain the citations? L.P.Clerc was a scholar, among other things, and it
seems unlikely that he would have left out the citations.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 08:25:01 up 7 days, 13:25, 3 users, load average: 4.47, 4.26, 4.15
  #4  
Old June 19th 07, 11:56 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone


"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
news:5vQdi.3275$lY5.1258@trnddc07...
Richard Knoppow wrote:

One problem with Clerk is that there are no
attributions or
citations. Sulfite slowly absorbs oxygen becoming Sodium
Sulfate. In a
developer or fixing bath its affinity for oxygen is used
to protect
other chemicals by preferential absorption. Hydroquinone
and Metol are
also oxygen absorbers but, like you, I've never heard of
adding any
to a Sulfite solution to preserve it.
Generally, the more concentrated a sulfite solution
it the longer
it will last. Probably the best way to preserve a sulfite
solution is
to keep it in a closed, sealed container of some material
which does
not allow air to pass through. Glass is best but some
high density
plastics are nearly as good.
The various editions of Clerk's books have a lot of
good stuff
in them but, IMO, the lack of citations and references
severely limits
them.

The only copy of L.P. Clerc I have seen is an English
translation in two
volumes. These seem to be intended for English students
who want a career in
photography. I know some color illustrations (all of them)
are missing,
though referred to in the text. Could it be that a French
edition would
contain the citations? L.P.Clerc was a scholar, among
other things, and it
seems unlikely that he would have left out the citations.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User
85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine
241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 08:25:01 up 7 days, 13:25, 3 users, load average:
4.47, 4.26, 4.15


I have several editions of Clerk, all English
translations. The forward indicates that citations were
delibrately left out to reduce the size and cost of the
book. I am quite sure they didn't exist in the original
French editions. There are a few citations in the text,
mostly just to names, with no indication of where to find
them, so its very difficult to trace down original sources.
The first two or three editions were published in a
single volume. Then the book was taken over by Focal Press
who broke it up into several small books. Focal tends to do
this sort of thing. Clerk remains a valuable book but the
value is very much reduced by the lack of references.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #5  
Old June 21st 07, 06:46 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
sreenath
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone

This is 2nd English edition, and L.P.C does state in the foreword that
references have been intentionally left out.

I searched through the book again, and found that the original paper
is by Lumiere and Seyewetz, 1905.

Here is the exact text :

"It should, moreover to be noted that several developers, particularly
HQ and paraminophenol), if added i very minute quantity to a solution
of sulphite, retard very markedly the oxidation of the latter by
oxygen of the air(Lumiere & Seyewetz, 1905). They probably oppose the
catalytic action of various metallic salts, especially copper salts,
which may be present in quantities so small as to escape detection"

In another page, he states the quantity of developer to be added as 5
gr ( I think grains) to 20 Oz of sulfite solution.

Perhaps this is no longer of practical significance.

I find this book really fascinating.

thanks,
Sreenath


On Jun 20, 3:56 am, "Richard Knoppow" wrote:
"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message

news:5vQdi.3275$lY5.1258@trnddc07...



Richard Knoppow wrote:


One problem with Clerk is that there are no
attributions or
citations. Sulfite slowly absorbs oxygen becoming Sodium
Sulfate. In a
developer or fixing bath its affinity for oxygen is used
to protect
other chemicals by preferential absorption. Hydroquinone
and Metol are
also oxygen absorbers but, like you, I've never heard of
adding any
to a Sulfite solution to preserve it.
Generally, the more concentrated a sulfite solution
it the longer
it will last. Probably the best way to preserve a sulfite
solution is
to keep it in a closed, sealed container of some material
which does
not allow air to pass through. Glass is best but some
high density
plastics are nearly as good.
The various editions of Clerk's books have a lot of
good stuff
in them but, IMO, the lack of citations and references
severely limits
them.


The only copy of L.P. Clerc I have seen is an English
translation in two
volumes. These seem to be intended for English students
who want a career in
photography. I know some color illustrations (all of them)
are missing,
though referred to in the text. Could it be that a French
edition would
contain the citations? L.P.Clerc was a scholar, among
other things, and it
seems unlikely that he would have left out the citations.


--


  #6  
Old June 21st 07, 11:33 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Jean-David Beyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone

sreenath wrote:
This is 2nd English edition, and L.P.C does state in the foreword that
references have been intentionally left out.

I have the 2-volume Amphoto edition edited by D.A.Spencer -- the one
published in USA in 1973 and copyright in 1970. This has no Forward, but it
does have a Preface by Spencer. It is Spencer who says that the references
have been left out (to save space). He does not say the color plates have
been left out, though they have been left out even though they are cited in
the text. I think the omissions are due to the English editors trying to
appeal to English trade-school students, rather that to Clerc himself
(though this is just my opinion).

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 06:20:01 up 13:55, 3 users, load average: 4.27, 4.11, 4.03
  #7  
Old October 30th 07, 09:49 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone


"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
news:ytsei.3674$tI5.2965@trnddc08...
sreenath wrote:
This is 2nd English edition, and L.P.C does state in the
foreword that
references have been intentionally left out.

I have the 2-volume Amphoto edition edited by
D.A.Spencer -- the one
published in USA in 1973 and copyright in 1970. This has
no Forward, but it
does have a Preface by Spencer. It is Spencer who says
that the references
have been left out (to save space). He does not say the
color plates have
been left out, though they have been left out even though
they are cited in
the text. I think the omissions are due to the English
editors trying to
appeal to English trade-school students, rather that to
Clerc himself
(though this is just my opinion).

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User
85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine
241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 06:20:01 up 13:55, 3 users, load average: 4.27,
4.11, 4.03



This is also true of the english translation of Eder's
history. The original German edition had many illustrations
which were left out. They were included, or others
substituted, in the Dover reprint. I am they were left out
of the english translation to lower the costs and Focal does
seem to target trade school students with many of its books.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #8  
Old October 30th 07, 09:56 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default sulfite solution and hydroquinone


"sreenath" wrote in message
oups.com...
This is 2nd English edition, and L.P.C does state in the
foreword that
references have been intentionally left out.

I searched through the book again, and found that the
original paper
is by Lumiere and Seyewetz, 1905.

Here is the exact text :

"It should, moreover to be noted that several developers,
particularly
HQ and paraminophenol), if added i very minute quantity to
a solution
of sulphite, retard very markedly the oxidation of the
latter by
oxygen of the air(Lumiere & Seyewetz, 1905). They probably
oppose the
catalytic action of various metallic salts, especially
copper salts,
which may be present in quantities so small as to escape
detection"

In another page, he states the quantity of developer to be
added as 5
gr ( I think grains) to 20 Oz of sulfite solution.

Perhaps this is no longer of practical significance.

I find this book really fascinating.

thanks,
Sreenath

Both hydroquinone and paraminophenol and its relative
Metol, are very active reducing agents, i.e., they absorb
oxygen. There may be some mutual protection where both
sulfite and one of these developing agents is included. If
so, it would suggest that the liftime of low pH developers,
like D-23 or D-25, is longer than the lifetime of a similar
concentration of sulfite. I don't know how to prove this
since I am not a chemist. One clue may be that the shelf
life of Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, which is a neutral pH
buffered solution of sodium sulfite _does_ have a shorter
shelf life than many relatively low pH developers. I will
have to dig out my edition of Clerc and find this. I have
both the first and second edtions in translation plus the
later Focal Press edition in 5(?) volumes. I agree that its
a fascinating book.
Lumiere and Sayewetz are very respectible researchers and
photographic pioneers.

--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



 




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