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[SI] Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!



 
 
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  #61  
Old September 16th 11, 06:47 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
PeterN
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Posts: 3,039
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On 9/16/2011 11:28 AM, Pete A wrote:
snip

When I comment on SI submissions I attempt to separate the art from the
craft. For surreal images (my favourite kind), I assume that the artist
"got their art right" therefore I can indicate only my appreciation of
the art. If I don't like it, be pleased. Surreal art is supposed to
provoke a reaction, it is irrelevant whether the reaction is positive or
negative. The art is a failure only when everyone says "It's OK."



It would be a dull world if we all liked the same thing. I have never
liked or appreciated Van Eyck, but millions of others do.



If I dislike, or do not understand, the art, I try to put that aside
while I think of technical aspects that may be detracting from the art.


When I comment on technical aspects, I try to express what I think would
enhance, not change the image I think the maker intended.


My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me
totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to
critique the works of others?


As a sentient human you have opinions, likes and dislikes. You clearly
have the right to express your opinions. And as a contribution to the
art world, perhaps an obligation.


Why don't I just submit images then sit
back and learn from the experience of others? Because, I never want my
art, or anyone else's, to be "designed by committee."


Nor should it ever be.


Each of us is an adherent of some photographic rules. I'm obsessed with
bokeh, horizons, vanishing points, optical illusions, chroma noise,
distracting dots/lines, and tone - the distribution of levels in terms
of both contrast and colour. Yet for the life of me I can't learn to
frame or compose an image.


Practice, practice, practice. ;-)

Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more
useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro.
photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever
learnt from camera clubs

Depends on the club.
Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC
competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand
the rules before one can break them successfully.


I've left my biggest obsession until last: "rendering intent." While
writing my comments on SI submissions I have no idea as to the intended
rendering of each image. I wonder, is its purpose: to look good as
displayed on the Web page with a black background; to be the front cover
of a magazine; to be a double-page spread in a prestigious journal; to
be framed and offered for sale at a high price; or to be a giant poster
on display in a shop or on billboard?



Agreed. Yet a good image will sell itself.

You all must be sick to death of me harping on about this: a digital
image is not a finished product, the rendering of it is out of our
control. If you give me a perfect image and I display it on a ****
monitor, it will look terrible. If you send me a beautifully framed
print, designed to look its best under carefully controlled incandescent
lighting (a studio or gallery) it will look **** hanging on my bedroom
wall illuminated by cold North-East afternoon light.

The oft-forgotten aspect of "rendering intent" is the appropriate
rendition of sharpness throughout an image to match the visual acuity of
the viewer. Nature has fine detail from the macro right down to the
micro: the outline of a forest should be sharp as should be the fine
detail in each leaf. Even a 60 MP camera isn't going to record that
range. Visual acuity peaks around 7 to 9 line-pairs per degree and drops
to almost zero by 30 (20/20 vision). Unlike an painter, a photographer
has to juggle with depth-of-field, diffraction, camera resolution,
available light, dynamic range, and noise. If the photographer does not
know the rendering intent for the image then it is impossible to select
"best" values for ISO, aperture and shutter speed, let alone select or
purchase his/her best lens for the job. Examples:

1. A windmill in the mist does not need a camera and lens combination
that has 12 f-stops of dynamic range and the last word in spatial
resolution; it requires a combination that is extraordinarily good at
resolving micro-contrast and subtleties of colour.

2. Resolving every defect in a model's face is not "good photography."


True, but it may be good marketing.


3. A section of picket fence as the main subject should look sharp, but
the fine detail in the surrounding grass or gravel should not look
sharp. Such a shot requires an image with high MTF at mid frequencies
and low MTF at high frequencies. The definition of "mid" and "high"
spatial frequencies must coincide with the visual acuity of the viewer,
not a lens-test MTF chart.



Why?

Is it really necessary for are to follow rules. That last paragraph is
exactly the camera club system.


--
Peter
  #62  
Old September 16th 11, 06:56 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Pete A
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Posts: 204
Default [SI] Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On 2011-09-16 18:26:51 +0100, Bowser said:

[...]
And once again, nobody likes that damned third shot.

:-)


Oh, for goodness sake! I wrote "I have a sense of unease looking at
this one. The guy in the boat is pointing to it: I think it needs to
show either bit more on the left or bit less."

That doesn't mean I didn't like it. I took into account in my comments
that you know very well I'm a great fan of your images, so, I really
really like that shot, OK? If it had been framed slightly differently
on the left I think it would transform it from "very good" to "superb."

  #63  
Old September 16th 11, 07:01 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Tony Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,748
Default [SI] Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:26:51 -0400, Bowser wrote:

On 9/16/2011 10:01 AM, tony cooper wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:40:58 -0400, wrote:

The Dusk or Dawn gallery is posted, and it's a very healthy gallery,
too. Some nice shots in there. Take a look, and offer a friendly
critique, if you dare.

http://www.pbase.com/shootin/duskdawn


Pithy comments:

Bowser1& Bowser2: Both excellent shots, but how they fit the Dusk to
Dawn mandate baffles me. Bowser3 fits the mandate, but is a rather
trite view of a much-photographed setting.


All three shots were taken at dusk. the first one, I thought, was pretty
obvious, but I'll grant you the mushrooms isn't as obvious. But it was
taken at dusk and the light was really nice.

And once again, nobody likes that damned third shot.

Well, to me, a "dusk or dawn" photo ought to *look* like it was taken
at dusk or at dawn. I did like the mushroom photo, though.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #64  
Old September 16th 11, 07:08 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Tony Cooper
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Posts: 4,748
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:14 +0100, Pete A
wrote:

My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me
totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to
critique the works of others?


This, frankly, is bull****. We are *all* qualified to judge and
comment on all the photographs submitted. The only qualification
necessary is the ability to form and express an opinion.

What makes you think your opinion is any less valid than anyone
else's? You may see something - good or bad - in photo that no one
else sees or brings up.




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #65  
Old September 16th 11, 09:09 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Tony Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,748
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:47:18 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more
useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro.
photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever
learnt from camera clubs

Depends on the club.
Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC
competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand
the rules before one can break them successfully.


Every camera club is different, but my time has been well-spent
attending the meetings. I've learned more about what *not* to do than
what I should do.

The critiques bring out the flaws more than they compliment the good
aspects. When you see how a photograph can be improved by cropping,
you learn not include the extraneous in the next submission. In
general, you learn *why* a particular photograph isn't as pleasing as
you think it should be or why the judges aren't pleased with it.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #66  
Old September 16th 11, 10:28 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Pete A
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 204
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On 2011-09-16 19:08:06 +0100, tony cooper said:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:14 +0100, Pete A
wrote:

My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me
totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to
critique the works of others?


This, frankly, is bull****. We are *all* qualified to judge and
comment on all the photographs submitted. The only qualification
necessary is the ability to form and express an opinion.

What makes you think your opinion is any less valid than anyone
else's? You may see something - good or bad - in photo that no one
else sees or brings up.


I find it very difficult to express my opinions in writing - it took me
five hours to write my comments on the submissions to this SI. I
enjoyed doing it and I took the time because in a previous post you
mentioned that there was a lack of negative feedback (suggestions for
improvement).

Hopefully this time, I've contributed worthwhile observations from my
areas of knowledge that will benefit others.

The last thing I want anyone to do is degrade their work of art because
of something I've said. In my opinion, some contributors to the SI are
overly willing to adjust the artistic rendition of their image based on
feedback - feedback that I strongly disagree with, but I remain silent.
I do not wish to start an argument, furthermore, I have no empirical
evidence for my disagreement.

What really ****es me off is when I see budding artists who are
compliant enough (through admirable humility) to willingly degrade
their art based on the feedback of those who totally missed the point
of their art.

But, like I said, who the hell am I to make such powerful statements?
It's just my humble opinions at the end of the day.

  #67  
Old September 17th 11, 02:12 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
PeterN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On 9/16/2011 4:09 PM, tony cooper wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:47:18 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more
useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro.
photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever
learnt from camera clubs

Depends on the club.
Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC
competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand
the rules before one can break them successfully.


Every camera club is different, but my time has been well-spent
attending the meetings. I've learned more about what *not* to do than
what I should do.

The critiques bring out the flaws more than they compliment the good
aspects. When you see how a photograph can be improved by cropping,
you learn not include the extraneous in the next submission. In
general, you learn *why* a particular photograph isn't as pleasing as
you think it should be or why the judges aren't pleased with it.

We try to emphasize the positive. Having said that, sometimes a critique
must be harsh. Last night, after the formal presentation was over we
continued the discussion with the presenter, for about another hour. We
learned additional refinement of the technique in that hour.

I will pass on one tip I learned for quickly setting a gray point. It
takes longer to read, than do:
Duplicate the base layer;
blur it: filter! blur ! average;
create a curve adjustment layer'
click on the center eye dropper and touch it to the blurred layer. It
will turn 18% gray'

delete the blurred layer and the base image will reflect the gray point
setting;
then set your black and white points.
Note: this also works well with a levels adjustment layer.





--
Peter
  #68  
Old September 17th 11, 02:16 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
PeterN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On 9/16/2011 5:28 PM, Pete A wrote:
On 2011-09-16 19:08:06 +0100, tony cooper said:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:14 +0100, Pete A
wrote:

My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me
totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to
critique the works of others?


This, frankly, is bull****. We are *all* qualified to judge and
comment on all the photographs submitted. The only qualification
necessary is the ability to form and express an opinion.

What makes you think your opinion is any less valid than anyone
else's? You may see something - good or bad - in photo that no one
else sees or brings up.


I find it very difficult to express my opinions in writing - it took me
five hours to write my comments on the submissions to this SI. I enjoyed
doing it and I took the time because in a previous post you mentioned
that there was a lack of negative feedback (suggestions for improvement).

Hopefully this time, I've contributed worthwhile observations from my
areas of knowledge that will benefit others.

The last thing I want anyone to do is degrade their work of art because
of something I've said. In my opinion, some contributors to the SI are
overly willing to adjust the artistic rendition of their image based on
feedback - feedback that I strongly disagree with, but I remain silent.
I do not wish to start an argument, furthermore, I have no empirical
evidence for my disagreement.

What really ****es me off is when I see budding artists who are
compliant enough (through admirable humility) to willingly degrade their
art based on the feedback of those who totally missed the point of their
art.

But, like I said, who the hell am I to make such powerful statements?
It's just my humble opinions at the end of the day.


Don't confuse humility with a lack of self confidence.
I try to make it clear, that my comments are only my opinion and the
artist should not take them literally, but should merely consider them.

--
Peter
  #69  
Old September 17th 11, 03:00 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
PeterN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On 9/16/2011 7:28 PM, Pete A wrote:


snip

That sounds great. I've had three people suggest I should start a camera
club completely separate from our local one, meaning, mine should be
geared towards novices having fun, with photography as a secondary
interest. I'm not quite up to organising that, but I'll have a go at
coercing the able-bodied enthusiasts to start something.

It takes a lot of work and a great deal of commitment to run even a
small CC. If you are not sure you can do it, don't. It's too easy to get
nice people mad at you, for your good intentions.




--
Peter
  #70  
Old September 17th 11, 04:36 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Tony Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,748
Default Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:12:02 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 9/16/2011 4:09 PM, tony cooper wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:47:18 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more
useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro.
photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever
learnt from camera clubs

Depends on the club.
Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC
competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand
the rules before one can break them successfully.


Every camera club is different, but my time has been well-spent
attending the meetings. I've learned more about what *not* to do than
what I should do.

The critiques bring out the flaws more than they compliment the good
aspects. When you see how a photograph can be improved by cropping,
you learn not include the extraneous in the next submission. In
general, you learn *why* a particular photograph isn't as pleasing as
you think it should be or why the judges aren't pleased with it.

We try to emphasize the positive.


Who "we"? Our critiques are from at least one, if not two, non-member
judges and one or two member judges. The images are graded without
the grader knowing who shot the image.

All the judges usually (but not always) compliment the image one way
or the other, but then they say why it was a 7 instead of a 10.




I will pass on one tip I learned for quickly setting a gray point. It
takes longer to read, than do:
Duplicate the base layer;
blur it: filter! blur ! average;
create a curve adjustment layer'
click on the center eye dropper and touch it to the blurred layer. It
will turn 18% gray'

delete the blurred layer and the base image will reflect the gray point
setting;
then set your black and white points.
Note: this also works well with a levels adjustment layer.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 




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