No photographs allowed

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:06:06 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 9/12/2011 11:23 AM, tony cooper wrote:

snip
I did make the point, though, that if someone asks me not to
photograph them I usually comply. Not always. If they ask with
attitude as this guy did, then it's another story.


Sorry Tony I misunderstood what you said.
Here in NY, especially in come of the ethnic neighborhoods some people
get really upset at the sight of anyone with a camera. Attitude or not,
I just don't think it's right to make someone uncomfortable, just for my
own pleasure.

I have a couple of series of shots I took at a wholesale farmer's
market where all of the subjects were Mexicans. These are people who
bring in fruit and vegetables and sell it people who run small
groceries and roadside stands.

I didn't ask anyone's permission, but I held up the camera and kinda
gestured that I was taking photos. There were a *lot* of wave-offs
that day, but some willing subjects.

I thought the wave-offs and turn-away-quicklies were about
undocumented people, but one stall owner explained the fear was that I
was from the state and photographing them making unreported income.

My favorites from those series a

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...4_tra6R-X3.jpg

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...9_t4ibA-X2.jpg

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...4_5mpb6-X3.jpg

Obviously, I didn't ask the first lady, but the subjects in the other
two knew they were being photographed.




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:25:04 -0400, tony cooper wrote:

The instructor got shirty with me and said it was against the law to
take a photograph of someone without their permission. This made me
laugh. He had an NRA patch on his shirt, so I asked him how he would
feel if I started making up laws about guns. He just turned and
walked away.

My father taught me never to argue with a man with a gun.

Unless my gun was bigger...

tony cooper writes:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 13:39:45 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet
wrote:

You cannot drive in your car with a
gun on your belt.

But what's this about not being able to carry in my own car? That's
absurd.

You may not "open car carry" in Florida. A person 18 or older to may
possess a concealed firearm in their car, without a license, if the
firearm is "securely encased". "Securely encased" means in a glove
compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun
case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed
box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for
access.

Ah, it's a restriction on the "open" part. That's more common, and not
so big a deal to me. (I haven't been in Florida in years. I've carried
in a number of states that recognize my MN permit, and of course make a
point of checking their laws before I go there, or at the very least
asking locals who I trust to get it right.)

Savageduck writes:

On 2011-09-12 11:39:45 -0700, David Dyer-Bennet said:

Savageduck writes:

In April of this year Florida implemented an Amendment which still
bans "open carry" in Florida, but protects legal gun owners with valid
concealed carry weapon (CCW) permits if they inadvertently expose
their concealed weapon, and those engaged in, or going directly to and
from legitimate shooting events. You cannot drive in your car with a
gun on your belt.
It has been referred to as "open carry lite".
http://opencarry.org/fl.html

Ah, thanks. I remembered older articles on the problem of minor
concealment mishaps ("wardrobe malfunctions" :-) ) being criminalized.
I'm glad they at least sort-of fixed it.

But what's this about not being able to carry in my own car? That's
absurd.

That is Florida and its version of open carry. I believe it has
something to do with Florida drawing a narrow line between "concealed"
and "open" carry. Their interpretation has a non-CCW gun owner,
walking in plain sight from his car to a shooting event with his gun
clearly visible on his hip he is OK. If he has the gun on his hip
while sitting in a car it is concealed from the casual observer and
now requires a CCW.

Ah, okay, under their "open" carry; I was thinking originally it was
restriction on CCW carry, which was obviously absurd.

So if you do not have a Florida CCW permit you can walk to wherever
you are engaged in legal shooting, be that to a range or legal
hunting, with your gun on your hip in open carry. Don't wear a jacket
or a shirt which will cover it, or you are back in CCW territory.

I would of course check local laws before going somewhere new and
carrying there.

I don't have a Florida CCW; though I've signed people off as qualified
to get one (I was MN carry permit instructor for a while, and also got
Utah certification to teach a combined MN/UT/FL course; FL just lets me
sign off on a fairly general letter for out-of-state people applying for
an FL permit).

In California a gun on the hip, uncovered is consider open carry, but
must be unloaded. That has led to some of the strange scenes in San
Francisco Starbucks with groups of open carry protagonists sipping
coffee while wearing unloaded handguns.

That one I remember from local news.

California has specific laws
for transportation of firearms in vehicles which would mean that any
of these California open carry protagonists would not be able to carry
their guns on their hip legally without a CCW.

Personally as a retired LEO I have 50 state CCW privilege.

Nice for you :-) .

On 2011-09-12 22:11:21 -0700, David Dyer-Bennet said:

Savageduck writes:

On 2011-09-12 11:39:45 -0700, David Dyer-Bennet said:

Savageduck writes:

In April of this year Florida implemented an Amendment which still
bans "open carry" in Florida, but protects legal gun owners with valid
concealed carry weapon (CCW) permits if they inadvertently expose
their concealed weapon, and those engaged in, or going directly to and
from legitimate shooting events. You cannot drive in your car with a
gun on your belt.
It has been referred to as "open carry lite".
http://opencarry.org/fl.html

Ah, thanks. I remembered older articles on the problem of minor
concealment mishaps ("wardrobe malfunctions" :-) ) being criminalized.
I'm glad they at least sort-of fixed it.

But what's this about not being able to carry in my own car? That's
absurd.

That is Florida and its version of open carry. I believe it has
something to do with Florida drawing a narrow line between "concealed"
and "open" carry. Their interpretation has a non-CCW gun owner,
walking in plain sight from his car to a shooting event with his gun
clearly visible on his hip he is OK. If he has the gun on his hip
while sitting in a car it is concealed from the casual observer and
now requires a CCW.

Ah, okay, under their "open" carry; I was thinking originally it was
restriction on CCW carry, which was obviously absurd.

So if you do not have a Florida CCW permit you can walk to wherever
you are engaged in legal shooting, be that to a range or legal
hunting, with your gun on your hip in open carry. Don't wear a jacket
or a shirt which will cover it, or you are back in CCW territory.

I would of course check local laws before going somewhere new and
carrying there.

I don't have a Florida CCW; though I've signed people off as qualified
to get one (I was MN carry permit instructor for a while, and also got
Utah certification to teach a combined MN/UT/FL course; FL just lets me
sign off on a fairly general letter for out-of-state people applying for
an FL permit).

Unfortunately MN is one of the states without mutual CCW reciprocity
with Florida.


In California a gun on the hip, uncovered is consider open carry, but
must be unloaded. That has led to some of the strange scenes in San
Francisco Starbucks with groups of open carry protagonists sipping
coffee while wearing unloaded handguns.

That one I remember from local news.

There are some California Counties and municipalities which restrict
and forbid open carry. A stroll down Hollywood Boulevard with a visible
firearm on your hip would for example gain you the attention of LA's
finest.


California has specific laws
for transportation of firearms in vehicles which would mean that any
of these California open carry protagonists would not be able to carry
their guns on their hip legally without a CCW.

Personally as a retired LEO I have 50 state CCW privilege.

Nice for you :-) .

....and here we are ;-)
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/135613117

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2011-09-12 22:06:45 -0700, said:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:25:04 -0400, tony cooper
wrote:

The instructor got shirty with me and said it was against the law to
take a photograph of someone without their permission. This made me
laugh. He had an NRA patch on his shirt, so I asked him how he would
feel if I started making up laws about guns. He just turned and
walked away.

My father taught me never to argue with a man with a gun.

Unless my gun was bigger...

....but always consider the .45 ACP paper punch and the practiced skill
to be somewhat consistent.
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...%26Targetw.jpg


--
Regards,

Savageduck

"Charles E. Hardwidge" wrote in message
...
"Pete Stavrakoglou" wrote in message
...
"dadiOH" wrote in message
...

Regardless, if someone doesn't want there picture taken I think their
wishes should be respected. YMMV

Ture, but either lying or claiming something due to one's ignorance
doesn't help one's case.

Excuse the Buddhist in me stepping in: this is irrelevant. Mere words and
laws whether true or not at just "stuff" without a causal link. They are just
words and laws - fresh air.

Can the Buddhist in you explain exactly what in my post you consider to be
irrelevant?

On 9/12/2011 11:07 PM, tony cooper wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:06:06 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 9/12/2011 11:23 AM, tony cooper wrote:

snip
I did make the point, though, that if someone asks me not to
photograph them I usually comply. Not always. If they ask with
attitude as this guy did, then it's another story.


Sorry Tony I misunderstood what you said.
Here in NY, especially in come of the ethnic neighborhoods some people
get really upset at the sight of anyone with a camera. Attitude or not,
I just don't think it's right to make someone uncomfortable, just for my
own pleasure.

I have a couple of series of shots I took at a wholesale farmer's
market where all of the subjects were Mexicans. These are people who
bring in fruit and vegetables and sell it people who run small
groceries and roadside stands.

I didn't ask anyone's permission, but I held up the camera and kinda
gestured that I was taking photos. There were a *lot* of wave-offs
that day, but some willing subjects.

I thought the wave-offs and turn-away-quicklies were about
undocumented people, but one stall owner explained the fear was that I
was from the state and photographing them making unreported income.

My favorites from those series a

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...4_tra6R-X3.jpg

Interesting shot. You have captured her exhaustion. There is something
bothering me about her skin tones. Did you try some color mapping?



http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...9_t4ibA-X2.jpg

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...4_5mpb6-X3.jpg


Playful mood. I would have been tempted to buy a watermelon and
encourage them to get into a food fight with it. It would not take much
to get them to do it. ;-)

Obviously, I didn't ask the first lady, but the subjects in the other
two knew they were being photographed.



--
Peter

On 9/12/2011 10:56 PM, tony cooper wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:59:35 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 9/12/2011 7:47 AM, dadiOH wrote:
tony cooper wrote:
Someone pulled that on me today. I took my grandchildren to a
shooting range where a group of "Cowboy Shooters" meet once a month.
We spent a couple of hours watching these hobbyists fire six-shooters,
rifles, and shotguns with genuine or replica frontier-era weapons.

Nice group of people. Several took the time to explain what was going
on to my six and seven year-old grandchildren, showed them their
weapons, and one even allowed the boys to dry fire his six-shooter.

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/photos...fGQnLTS-X3.jpg

Some good shots of the grandchildren today, but nothing that isn't
just a snapshot. Mostly, the view is the back of people. Not too
good standing in front of them since they are using live ammo.

The shooting is scored on time minus misses, so the person standing
behind this shooter is timing him.

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/photos...fLmj27p-X3.jpg

In another area was a group of people taking instruction on modern
small weapons from an instructor. I took a couple of snaps and the
instructor came over and said "No photographs allowed".

My answer was the short form: "Bull****". I was far behind them with
a 200mm lens and out of ear range of the shutter click, so I wasn't
disturbing anything.

The instructor got shirty with me and said it was against the law to
take a photograph of someone without their permission. This made me
laugh. He had an NRA patch on his shirt, so I asked him how he would
feel if I started making up laws about guns. He just turned and
walked away.

The subject matter wasn't interesting, so I left after just a couple
of snaps. What gets me the most is the hypocrisy of the instructor.
There is no group in this country that spends more time, energy, and
money to ensure that their right to pursue their own hobby is not
abridged than gun owners who are in the NRA. Yet, this guy wanted to
deny me my right to pursue my own hobby.

The little would-be tyrant:

Regardless, if someone doesn't want there picture taken I think their wishes
should be respected. YMMV


I completely agree with you. So does Tony. IIRC somewhere in this thread
he said he would not take someone's picture if asked not to. In this
case I understand the NRA guy ws tell him no pictures of anybody was
allowed.

Where Tony Cooper and I disagree is that I will ask, implicitly or
explicity. In the case of a child I will not shoot without asking the
supervising adult if it is OK.

In this particular case, the instructor was in the middle of a class.
I wasn't about to go up and ask him. I would have got nothing but
backs of the class members from my position because they were facing
the instructor.

However, you are right in that I shoot a lot of candids and do so
without asking even though I could. I'm not going to get a candid
shot if I ask.

Quite often the subject sees me. There's either no reaction a
favorable reaction 99% of the time. With bikers, I get a thumbs up or
a wave. What I'm looking for in a candid is subject with some
character.

I've been waved off a few times when the subject has seen me raise the
lens. I don't take the shot. I was warned off once when I saw a
group of bikers stopped at a rest stop on the way to Daytona. I got
out of the car with my camera, and a guy from the group ambled over
and pointed out Warlocks don't like their pictures taken. I got back
in the car.

I rarely take photos of children. For this one, I asked the mother
and offered to email her a copy:

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...01-30-5-X3.jpg

Cute family portrait. They will enjoy it in years to come.


Also asked before taking this one the same day:

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...1-30-02-X2.jpg


Shows a lot a character. Wonder what caused their sadness. Kids with
painted faces don't usually look that sad, unless mom just said
something like: "two ice cream cones are enough."


I didn't ask for this one, but the child's face isn't really visible.

http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...3-07-01-X3.jpg



--
Peter

On 9/13/11 12:55 AM, in article
2011091222552550878-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
wrote:

On 2011-09-12 22:06:45 -0700, said:

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:25:04 -0400, tony cooper
wrote:

The instructor got shirty with me and said it was against the law to
take a photograph of someone without their permission. This made me
laugh. He had an NRA patch on his shirt, so I asked him how he would
feel if I started making up laws about guns. He just turned and
walked away.

My father taught me never to argue with a man with a gun.

Unless my gun was bigger...

...but always consider the .45 ACP paper punch and the practiced skill

to be somewhat consistent.
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechut...%26Targetw.jpg

Nice grouping!