Decent alternative to dslr?

Serge Desplanques wrote:

i get the picture now...I had a hard time understanding, first, why
anyone would be so aggressive about compact, fixed-lens, toy viewfinder
cameras unless he was angry about something...he/they insists there was
no anger...secondly, the whole 'amateur psychoanalyst' phenomenon is
odd, but surely not limited to internet trolls..I blame Dr. Phil

The phenomena of someone buying a product that turns out to be inferior,
then trying to entice others to do the same in order to validate their
decision has been going on for centuries. The only difference is now
it's easier for people like "Gary" or whatever he's using on each day to
broadcast their ignorance to the entire world. You used to see this
behavior a lot in the automotive newsgroups, where someone would buy a
low-quality, low-cost vehicle, and immediately start berating every
better, more expensive vehicle as being a waste of money.

Alas, it's hard to keep the kill-files up to date when these people keep
changing identities.

On 2007-11-09 09:21:31 -0700, =?UTF-8?B?U01TIOaWr+iSguaWh+KAoiDlpI8=?=
said:

jean wrote:

Well, not quite. A P+S will not be ready in time to take a picture outside
the range of it's design. In low light when you want to take a quick shot
or for action shots, a P+S will just not be up to it, skill or no skill.

This is true. It's not a knock on the P&S, it's inherent in the design
and there's no way around it. You have to understand the limitations of
each device. OTOH, a point and shoot will have much better macro
capability without the need for an expensive macro lens.

Just try and go through the menus to set up higher ISO, put it in full
manual and prefocus to a certain distance and compare the time it takes to
do the same steps on a DSLR on which some of the functions like focussing
will be done in a flash, speaking of which, when more light is needed, just
how many P+S can accept an external flash?

Many of the higher end point and shoots can accept an external flash,
and some models without a hot shoe can use a wireless flash, i.e. the
Canon HF-DC1.

I did try many P+S, but not ALL of them. The last one being a Canon G6. In
some situations, I got very good pictures, but in others, it left me wanting
something better and skill or technique had nothing to do with it. The only
advantage to a P+S (to me) is size.

Yes, that's what all the experts agree upon. However price is another
issue. Some buyers looks at an ultra-zoom point and shoot and think
they can get D-SLR equivalence at a bargain price without understanding
the differences in noise, sensor size, shutter lag, continuous frame
rate, or the compromises that an ultra-zoom lens makes. Of course some
buyers do realize the trade-offs they're making and just want something
with a wide range zoom that doesn't cost much.

my first camera was a Sony that cost $329 in 1997...I got another Sony
for about the same money in 2005, mainly because it had a 12x 'Carl
Zeiss' zoom...neither gave me picture quality any better than what I
would consider 'snapshots'...I traded the second camera in on a Nikon
L5...much better-looking photos, which I attribute to the Nikkor
lens...that's why I started to research the Nikon system, to take
advantage of the optics...I still consider the body to be a vehicle for
the lens...I use the D80 now, with some very nice non-professional
grade Nikkors, and still have the L5, but it gets very little use...it
might seem odd for an art director to have so little hands-on knowledge
of camerawork, but I did put in many hours on large format still
cameras with digital scanning backs, as well as video equipment...my
interest in personal (recreational) photography is more recent than my
professional experience behind a lens or in front of a monitor, and
I've taken many more pictures with a P&S than an SLR, so I have no 'axe
to grind'

It's funny, on my last vacation, I lugged a 20D and my wife took a 400XTi,
everyone else in the group had P+S cameras, wonders of wonders, everyone
else say our pictures are better than theirs.

Duh.

Try going to Alaska some time and try getting wildlife photos without
an SLR (digital or otherwise) and a long zoom. Forget it. Fortunately I
learned this in time, and took my film SLR rather than my digital point
and shoot (G2).


--
"Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know."

"DSLR STUPIDITY STRIKES AGAIN" a écrit dans le
message de ...
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 02:24:46 -0500, "jean" wrote:

Just try and go through the menus to set up higher ISO, put it in full
manual and prefocus to a certain distance and compare the time it takes
to
do the same steps on a DSLR on which some of the functions like focussing
will be done in a flash,

What P&S cameras have you tried? Do you honestly think that some of them
aren't
set up with better button layouts and menus than even top of the line
DSLRs? I
don't even bother looking at a camera until after I have downloaded the
manual
and read it from front to back to see how the camera is laid out and if
the
button configuration will prevent me from getting a shot in time. It's why
I
specifically rejected all Nikon cameras, their DSLRs included. Their menu
systems are so convoluted and non-intuitive, their button layouts are so
minimal
and useless, forcing you to use their annoying menus that you could cause
you to
miss 20 minutes worth of photos just trying to find the right options for
your
first shot. You might as well just buy a doorstop with a design like that,
it
would be just as useful for getting a photo. Many DSLRs from other
companies are
just as bad. I know, I've read their manuals.

I don't have to go through menus to change the ISO on 3 of my P&S cameras,
my
most used ones. I don't have to go through any menus on my most favorite
one.
All functions are accessible by buttons perfectly placed under each
finger. On
my left hand I have the manual focus/zoom ring and toggle switch to go
between
the two, AE lock, manual focus lock, and white-balance settings. On my
right
hand I have buttons for quick EV settings, ISO, focus frame, flash
settings,
macro mode, and shutter. Everything I need, perfectly placed under each of
my
fingers on both hands. In time it's like playing an instrument. Each
button a
note on the scale to play any tune I need, instantly. Doing everything by
touch
alone without even having to check to see what mode I am in.

You DSLR advocates do nothing but continually display your amazing amount
of
ignorance and lack of experience. It's no wonder that I never see any
photos
coming out of DSLRs that seem to be worth it. If you can't even put enough
research into different cameras to find out which ones are best and why, I
suspect you put as much effort into learning how to use the one you have.
This
lack of experience and knowledge most certainly shows in any examples of
photography that I've seen posted by people that own DSLRs. Of this there
is no
doubt.


So, which camera do YOU use, educate a poor ignorant and tell me why pro
photographers don't use P+S cameras to earn their living. Don't forget to
post a link to YOUR pictures so I can see for myself the prowess YOU
accomplished with a P+S.

Jean

On Nov 9, 12:38 pm, "jean" wrote:

So, which camera do YOU use, educate a poor ignorant and tell me why pro
photographers don't use P+S cameras to earn their living. Don't forget to
post a link to YOUR pictures so I can see for myself the prowess YOU
accomplished with a P+S.

Jean

He's never actually used a camera.

All he does is dowload manuals and troll the Usenet.

GaryJ. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 05:58:49 +1000, Doug Jewell
wrote:

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article , "Henry"
wrote:

which is the *best* non-dslr camera out there below 500 GBP?
Canon S2 IS

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...ategoryid=144&
modelid=11368

Of course, this model has been "long"-since discontinued, but it is the model
with which I have some experience.

I bought my Canon 20D a few months after the model was released. Some months
later, I convinced my daughter and son-in-law to purchase the S2 IS. I have
used that camera personally more than a few times and worked with its output a
LOT ever since. It is such a good camera producing truly stunning images
that, at times, I regret having spent the added $ on my dSLR - and my
experience in THAT goes back to Canon's AE1 then T9
I have an S2IS, and while it's not a bad camera, I did find
it extraordinarily disappointing. Shortly after purchasing
it, I started regretting the purchase, and wished I'd put
the money toward an SLR instead. Nothing wrong with it's
resolution, it's the complete lack of dynamic range, shots
that are so noisy as to be unusable at ISO 400, half a dozen
hot pixels that "are within specification", dreadful delay
getting focus, hit and miss focus, 60second charge/recharge
time for the flash, shutter speed maximum of 15 seconds, no
low battery warning (shows 100% then flashes low battery for
about 1 second before it says "change battery"), inability
to capture purple (becomes red or blue), and hopelessly
grainy EVF that are my issues with it.
On the good side, it's video quality is superb, and it has
almost totally replaced my video camera - the only thing my
video camera has in it's favour is that I can record an hour
on a tape, whereas the S2 is limited to 2 x 10 minutes on a
2GB card. But it's so quick and easy to dump a card onto the
computer and burn it to DVD, and the quality is almost as
good as miniDV - therefore the Canon wins the contest for
which video camera to take almost every time.
I assume that the S3 IS (also discontinued) and S5 IS are even better.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...ategoryid=144&
modelid=15207

Then there is Canon's Digital Elph lineup. My daughter and mother-in-law each
have one, probably two years old. They, too, take excellent photos. The form
factor - incredibly small to the point of being almost TOO small for large
hands - is the big "seller" here. They are truly pocket cameras. James Bond
and Maxwell Smart would have LOVED one of these little gems.
Have also got an Ixus 70 (digital elph something in the
USA), and it is a gem. It's no SLR for image quality, but
doesn't pretend to be. With cheap and cheerful point and
shoot convenience, it makes a great little party camera. My
only complaint is that it does suffer the same purple
problem as the S2, but it doesn't show up that often in the
circumstances where I use the Ixus.
As for optical versus electronic viewfinder...

On a trip to Omaha's zoo the other day, I used the optical viewfinder on my
daughter's SD300 (Digital Elph) to capture a group sitting. The frame was
"off" (top heavy), so using the EVF is probably the more reliable method of
framing a shot. Given that, the complete lack of an optical viewfinder
wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Using the EVF simply requires a little
practice.

Obviously, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool "Canon man" but I cheerfully admit that the
offerings of other makers are just as good in many cases. You would do well
to refer to the tests and ratings of at least a couple of reviews (DPReview,
PopPhoto, Consumer Reports, for example) to see what they reveal. Good luck.

I'm now starting to more fully understand why some people find P&S cameras such
poor comparisons for their DSLRs. It all amounts to the skill and talent of the
photographer. Those with less skill and talent, who have to depend on the camera
to do all their work for them, will see glaring differences. Note that these
people always complain that their camera can't focus for them fast enough, or
provide enough image quality or DOF. When clearly those are attainable in most
P&S cameras too, _IF_ you know what you are doing. Those whose skill and talent
is beyond that of any camera will see little to no differences in their cameras'
capabilities and choose their camera on how it will afford them the greatest
number of photo opportunities, which is often the P&S design for speed,
portability, and flexibility. Less time is spent worrying about the brush than
what is going to become of canvas. Someone with true talent and skill can paint
a masterpiece with any brush. The brush won't matter to them. But for someone
with no skill at all? Then yes, they'll blame the brush every time. That will
always be their first excuse.

It is interesting now to see that those who complain the most about P&S cameras
are only revealing that they don't have much talent and skill when it comes to
photography. Which is often just a reflection of their overall skill and talent
in all other areas of their life.

A self evident proof.

Yeah you're right. The half-dozen "within specification"
bright red and green spots that are in the same place on
every picture the camera takes, are there because I don't
know how to use it. I did some research, apparently I should
use it to photograph subjects which have red and green in
them, and compose the shot so that the red and green line up
with the dots.
And the 60 second flash recharge time is because I don't
know how to use it.
And the extreme noise at ISO 400 is because I don't know how
to use it.
It's inability to capture purple is because I don't know how
to use it.
It's slow autofocus, and equally slow, and impossibly
innacurate manual focus, is because I don't know how to use it.
The lack of an accurate battery indicator is because I don't
know how to use it.

SMS 斯蒂文• � wrote:
Doug Jewell wrote:

I have an S2IS, and while it's not a bad camera, I did find it
extraordinarily disappointing. Shortly after purchasing it, I started
regretting the purchase, and wished I'd put the money toward an SLR
instead. Nothing wrong with it's resolution, it's the complete lack of
dynamic range, shots that are so noisy as to be unusable at ISO 400,
half a dozen hot pixels that "are within specification", dreadful
delay getting focus, hit and miss focus, 60second charge/recharge time
for the flash, shutter speed maximum of 15 seconds, no low battery
warning (shows 100% then flashes low battery for about 1 second before
it says "change battery"), inability to capture purple (becomes red or
blue), and hopelessly grainy EVF that are my issues with it.

A lot of these drawbacks didn't get any better on subsequent models in
this line.

The battery indicator problem is related to NiMH batteries which don't
have the linear discharge rate of Li-Ion batteries, so it's very
difficult to do a real battery gauge, though supposedly the CHDK
software make an attempt to do this.
I know NiMH's have a very fast voltage drop when they run
out of charge, but my older Kodak's manage ok on NiMH
batteries, so it would appear to be a Canon thing.
Just like the "within specification" hot spots are a Canon
thing.

You're always going to have relatively long auto-focus times on P&S
cameras, no way around that unfortunately, and the dynamic range will
not improve unless some new type of sensor is developed.
Yep, while they use contrast detection with the main sensor,
and don't use dedicated phase detecting AF sensors, they
will never be real fast. And dynamic range is purely a
limitation of the number of megapixels and the size of the
sensor.


On the good side, it's video quality is superb, and it has almost
totally replaced my video camera - the only thing my video camera has
in it's favour is that I can record an hour on a tape, whereas the S2
is limited to 2 x 10 minutes on a 2GB card. But it's so quick and easy
to dump a card onto the computer and burn it to DVD, and the quality
is almost as good as miniDV - therefore the Canon wins the contest for
which video camera to take almost every time.

Yes, I find the same thing, and the video capability on the newer Canon
P&S cameras is even better than on the S2. It's one area where Canon
really excels on their P&S models.

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:38:00 -0500, "jean" wrote:


"DSLR STUPIDITY STRIKES AGAIN" a écrit dans le
message de ...
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 02:24:46 -0500, "jean" wrote:

Just try and go through the menus to set up higher ISO, put it in full
manual and prefocus to a certain distance and compare the time it takes
to
do the same steps on a DSLR on which some of the functions like focussing
will be done in a flash,

What P&S cameras have you tried? Do you honestly think that some of them
aren't
set up with better button layouts and menus than even top of the line
DSLRs? I
don't even bother looking at a camera until after I have downloaded the
manual
and read it from front to back to see how the camera is laid out and if
the
button configuration will prevent me from getting a shot in time. It's why
I
specifically rejected all Nikon cameras, their DSLRs included. Their menu
systems are so convoluted and non-intuitive, their button layouts are so
minimal
and useless, forcing you to use their annoying menus that you could cause
you to
miss 20 minutes worth of photos just trying to find the right options for
your
first shot. You might as well just buy a doorstop with a design like that,
it
would be just as useful for getting a photo. Many DSLRs from other
companies are
just as bad. I know, I've read their manuals.

I don't have to go through menus to change the ISO on 3 of my P&S cameras,
my
most used ones. I don't have to go through any menus on my most favorite
one.
All functions are accessible by buttons perfectly placed under each
finger. On
my left hand I have the manual focus/zoom ring and toggle switch to go
between
the two, AE lock, manual focus lock, and white-balance settings. On my
right
hand I have buttons for quick EV settings, ISO, focus frame, flash
settings,
macro mode, and shutter. Everything I need, perfectly placed under each of
my
fingers on both hands. In time it's like playing an instrument. Each
button a
note on the scale to play any tune I need, instantly. Doing everything by
touch
alone without even having to check to see what mode I am in.

You DSLR advocates do nothing but continually display your amazing amount
of
ignorance and lack of experience. It's no wonder that I never see any
photos
coming out of DSLRs that seem to be worth it. If you can't even put enough
research into different cameras to find out which ones are best and why, I
suspect you put as much effort into learning how to use the one you have.
This
lack of experience and knowledge most certainly shows in any examples of
photography that I've seen posted by people that own DSLRs. Of this there
is no
doubt.


So, which camera do YOU use, educate a poor ignorant and tell me why pro
photographers don't use P+S cameras to earn their living. Don't forget to
post a link to YOUR pictures so I can see for myself the prowess YOU
accomplished with a P+S.

Jean



Even better! Read this, you deceptive and ignorant piece of ****.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-6468-7844

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 08:21:31 -0800, SMS ???• ?
wrote:


Try going to Alaska some time and try getting wildlife photos without an
SLR (digital or otherwise) and a long zoom. Forget it. Fortunately I
learned this in time, and took my film SLR rather than my digital point
and shoot (G2).

How odd. I happen to personally know several professionals that use P&S cameras
to take award winning nature photography in Alaska, the Yukon, and much of the
land above the arctic circle in N. America. They wouldn't dare use an SLR nor
DSLR due to their constant problems in cold temperatures. Not to mention the
noise they create that alerts any grizzles to their whereabouts.

You're not too bright, are you.

But then that's to be expected from someone whose only experience comes from
watching CNN and PBS as their only outlets to all their photography "advice".

It's fun watching you make a total fool of yourself.

DSLR STUPIDITY STRIKES AGAIN wrote:

So, which camera do YOU use, educate a poor ignorant and tell me why pro
photographers don't use P+S cameras to earn their living. Don't forget to
post a link to YOUR pictures so I can see for myself the prowess YOU
accomplished with a P+S.

Jean



Even better! Read this, you deceptive and ignorant piece of ****.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-6468-7844


Nice article.. Couple of points..
1. Any, and I mean *ANY* camera that captures the moment is better than
no camera. Those shots were very nice, mainly due to subject matter(for
me).
2. Article states techniques were develop to overcome P/S shortcomings..
that means there *ARE* shortcomings to using a P/S.. just as there are
challenges to using a DSLR.
3. Nine times out of ten, the quality of the shot depends less on
technical and more on ability. The other tenth is reserved for physical
limitations (iso noise, lag, poor AF, etc).
4. If you're going to shoot, shoot with something that makes you
comfortable. I shot for years with a P/S, and still have them; they're
great if I don't have my DSLR. I prefer the wider versatility of the
DSLR these days.. Doesn't mean you can't shoot awe inspiring shots with
a P/S.

5.. Please spend quality time reviewing the basic trolling standards for
this news group.. you're not meeting them.

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:40:02 +1000, Doug Jewell
wrote:


Yeah you're right. The half-dozen "within specification"
bright red and green spots that are in the same place on
every picture the camera takes, are there because I don't
know how to use it. I did some research, apparently I should
use it to photograph subjects which have red and green in
them, and compose the shot so that the red and green line up
with the dots.
And the 60 second flash recharge time is because I don't
know how to use it.
And the extreme noise at ISO 400 is because I don't know how
to use it.
It's inability to capture purple is because I don't know how
to use it.
It's slow autofocus, and equally slow, and impossibly
innacurate manual focus, is because I don't know how to use it.
The lack of an accurate battery indicator is because I don't
know how to use it.


No, this is just a perfect display of someone who is amazingly stupid in how to
research what cameras to buy. Now why do I get the impression that this
phenomenally bad decision making ability of yours is reflected in which subjects
and scenes to photograph too. But then again, it is also reflected in what
camera you eventually DID buy. I can never say it enough times, only idiots buy
DSLRs. Your post is a perfect self-admission and proof of that. LOL Thanks for
providing more proof of the same, but then they can't help but post anything
different. It's what drives the whole DSLR market. STUPIDITY!