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A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 19th 18, 05:09 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 21,494
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

In article , android
wrote:


The sensor is probably dated and optimised for x-rays


probably not.


I stated the reasons for that opinion in that that you snipped. You're
dead wrong, of course! :-ppp


it's for normal visible light photography, *not* x-rays, which means
*you* are wrong.
  #12  
Old April 19th 18, 05:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
android
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Posts: 3,796
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

On 2018-04-19 04:09:31 +0000, nospam said:

In article , android
wrote:


The sensor is probably dated and optimised for x-rays

probably not.


I stated the reasons for that opinion in that that you snipped. You're
dead wrong, of course! :-ppp


it's for normal visible light photography, *not* x-rays, which means
*you* are wrong.


Of course not... Read up bozo! :-ppp
--
teleportation kills

  #13  
Old April 19th 18, 01:34 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
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Posts: 312
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

On 4/19/2018 4:55 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 April 2018 21:02:56 UTC+1, nospam wrote:
In article , Neil
wrote:

If that 12 megapixel is the actual resolution and isn't a typo, I'd much
rather carry my Olympus TG-4.

while it may be easier to carry, it has much smaller pixels, therefore
much higher noise.

"Much" higher noise?


yes.

I seriously doubt it.


then you don't understand physics.

S/N has more parameters than
just pixel size.


so what?

the dominant factor for noise is pixel size. larger pixels collect more
light. basic physics.


whtas you're realy intrested in is the ratio NOT the amount of noise.
It is far better to have a larger sensor even if you pick up more noise than a small sensor picking up noise that is why noise is defined as a signal to noise ratio.



the 12mp 8x10 camera has 75 micron pixels. those are *huge*. its base
iso is 2100, versus a base iso of 100-200 on a typical slr.


Doesn't mean much though does it.
It;s lioke saying a 2 1/1 square neg will collect more dust than a 35mm slide.


https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...eSense-Sensor-
Size-Comparison-x800.jpeg

size matters. full frame sensors have about a stop less noise than crop
sensors, which have about a stop less noise than micro 4/3rds, which
have a lot less noise than compact cameras and certainly cellphone
cameras, which have tiny sensors and very aggressive noise reduction
(which works fairly well, but not without compromise).


So a bigger sensor means less noise for the same sensor type.


Nospam ignores the fact that his reply to my comment was comparing
_cameras_, not the noise level of a single sensor cell. At 12mp, the
final output of that 8x10 camera will not produce an image with the same
linearity and gradation accuracy of a camera with a much smaller sensor
but two times as many pixels. So, the inevitable errors in the final
image is also "noise", and more relevant than what the individual sensor
cell can capture because it's the image that one looks at, not the
sensor cell's noise level.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #14  
Old April 19th 18, 04:18 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 21,494
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:


the 12mp 8x10 camera has 75 micron pixels. those are *huge*. its base
iso is 2100, versus a base iso of 100-200 on a typical slr.


Doesn't mean much though does it.


it means quite a bit.

It;s lioke saying a 2 1/1 square neg will collect more dust than a 35mm slide.


sort of, but you're ignoring that it also captures *significantly* more
light.



So a bigger sensor means less noise for the same sensor type.


yes.
  #15  
Old April 19th 18, 04:18 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,494
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

In article , Neil
wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...eSense-Sensor-
Size-Comparison-x800.jpeg

size matters. full frame sensors have about a stop less noise than crop
sensors, which have about a stop less noise than micro 4/3rds, which
have a lot less noise than compact cameras and certainly cellphone
cameras, which have tiny sensors and very aggressive noise reduction
(which works fairly well, but not without compromise).


So a bigger sensor means less noise for the same sensor type.

Nospam ignores the fact that his reply to my comment was comparing
_cameras_, not the noise level of a single sensor cell.


i was comparing cameras.

At 12mp, the
final output of that 8x10 camera will not produce an image with the same
linearity and gradation accuracy of a camera with a much smaller sensor
but two times as many pixels. So, the inevitable errors in the final
image is also "noise", and more relevant than what the individual sensor
cell can capture because it's the image that one looks at, not the
sensor cell's noise level.


false.
  #16  
Old April 19th 18, 10:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 312
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

On 4/19/2018 11:18 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Neil
wrote:

https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...eSense-Sensor-
Size-Comparison-x800.jpeg

size matters. full frame sensors have about a stop less noise than crop
sensors, which have about a stop less noise than micro 4/3rds, which
have a lot less noise than compact cameras and certainly cellphone
cameras, which have tiny sensors and very aggressive noise reduction
(which works fairly well, but not without compromise).

So a bigger sensor means less noise for the same sensor type.

Nospam ignores the fact that his reply to my comment was comparing
_cameras_, not the noise level of a single sensor cell.


i was comparing cameras.

Nope.

At 12mp, the
final output of that 8x10 camera will not produce an image with the same
linearity and gradation accuracy of a camera with a much smaller sensor
but two times as many pixels. So, the inevitable errors in the final
image is also "noise", and more relevant than what the individual sensor
cell can capture because it's the image that one looks at, not the
sensor cell's noise level.


false.

Once again, you are wrong. Do the math, then come back with the same BS.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #17  
Old April 19th 18, 10:44 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,494
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

In article , Neil
wrote:

size matters. full frame sensors have about a stop less noise than crop
sensors, which have about a stop less noise than micro 4/3rds, which
have a lot less noise than compact cameras and certainly cellphone
cameras, which have tiny sensors and very aggressive noise reduction
(which works fairly well, but not without compromise).

So a bigger sensor means less noise for the same sensor type.

Nospam ignores the fact that his reply to my comment was comparing
_cameras_, not the noise level of a single sensor cell.


i was comparing cameras.

Nope.


wrong.

At 12mp, the
final output of that 8x10 camera will not produce an image with the same
linearity and gradation accuracy of a camera with a much smaller sensor
but two times as many pixels. So, the inevitable errors in the final
image is also "noise", and more relevant than what the individual sensor
cell can capture because it's the image that one looks at, not the
sensor cell's noise level.


false.


Once again, you are wrong. Do the math, then come back with the same BS.


i've done the math, as have many others.

simple example: 12 mp cellphone camera versus 12mp full frame slr.

you're wrong.

tl;dr size matters.
  #18  
Old April 20th 18, 04:00 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,224
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:02:52 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

If that 12 megapixel is the actual resolution and isn't a typo, I'd much
rather carry my Olympus TG-4.

while it may be easier to carry, it has much smaller pixels, therefore
much higher noise.

"Much" higher noise?


yes.

I seriously doubt it.


then you don't understand physics.

S/N has more parameters than
just pixel size.


so what?

the dominant factor for noise is pixel size. larger pixels collect more
light. basic physics.


It's not so much that they collect more light but that there is less
random variation in the number of photons which each cell collects.

the 12mp 8x10 camera has 75 micron pixels. those are *huge*. its base
iso is 2100, versus a base iso of 100-200 on a typical slr.

https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...eSense-Sensor-
Size-Comparison-x800.jpeg

size matters. full frame sensors have about a stop less noise than crop
sensors, which have about a stop less noise than micro 4/3rds, which
have a lot less noise than compact cameras and certainly cellphone
cameras, which have tiny sensors and very aggressive noise reduction
(which works fairly well, but not without compromise).

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #19  
Old April 20th 18, 04:02 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,224
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:44:24 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

size matters. full frame sensors have about a stop less noise than crop
sensors, which have about a stop less noise than micro 4/3rds, which
have a lot less noise than compact cameras and certainly cellphone
cameras, which have tiny sensors and very aggressive noise reduction
(which works fairly well, but not without compromise).

So a bigger sensor means less noise for the same sensor type.

Nospam ignores the fact that his reply to my comment was comparing
_cameras_, not the noise level of a single sensor cell.

i was comparing cameras.

Nope.


wrong.

At 12mp, the
final output of that 8x10 camera will not produce an image with the same
linearity and gradation accuracy of a camera with a much smaller sensor
but two times as many pixels. So, the inevitable errors in the final
image is also "noise", and more relevant than what the individual sensor
cell can capture because it's the image that one looks at, not the
sensor cell's noise level.

false.


Once again, you are wrong. Do the math, then come back with the same BS.


i've done the math, as have many others.

simple example: 12 mp cellphone camera versus 12mp full frame slr.

You are right. Cell size does matter for shot noise.

you're wrong.

tl;dr size matters.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #20  
Old April 20th 18, 10:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,224
Default A camera with a sensor bigger than 8 by 10 inches??!!

On Fri, 20 Apr 2018 01:55:09 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Friday, 20 April 2018 04:00:41 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:02:52 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

If that 12 megapixel is the actual resolution and isn't a typo, I'd much
rather carry my Olympus TG-4.

while it may be easier to carry, it has much smaller pixels, therefore
much higher noise.

"Much" higher noise?

yes.

I seriously doubt it.

then you don't understand physics.

S/N has more parameters than
just pixel size.

so what?

the dominant factor for noise is pixel size. larger pixels collect more
light. basic physics.


It's not so much that they collect more light but that there is less
random variation in the number of photons which each cell collects.


I don't think that has anything to do with it, noise IS defined as unwanted signal in the device and associated circuitry.


Do you mean you are happy with shot noise?

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
 




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