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Turning film cameras into digital cameras



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 7th 07, 01:18 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
[email protected]
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Posts: 63
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 6, 11:05 pm, Charles wrote:
On 6 Apr 2007 19:28:31 -0700, wrote:



Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product? It is
just exactly like your old film cartridge, put into the back of your
camera, set the camera as it has a film in it, advance the lever ,
take photos, go to next shot, etc. The difference would be when you
complete the shots (24 or 36 exposure), you connect this cartridge to
your computer and downloaded the digital data, just like a media card
in your digital cameras. This product would be re-used again and
again, just like the digital cameras.
Some of you may said that is the same question whether there is a
"back cartridge" that can be fitted into the old Hasselblad, Mamiya RB
or M645, in which it changes into digital cameras. However, I heard
that this speacil back is very expensive. Correct me if such a product
exist for professional photographers, but at a very high costs! (such
that it is just easier to throw away the old cameras and buy a new
digital one).
The next question is whether technically this is possible. Will people
buy them, and use their old cameras (which some had invested heavily
before the digital era came to play). This sounds like a crazy idea,
but I sometime wonder that if it is possible. There are lots of smart
people and inventors in this world, and I am sure they have the brain
to create such a product. I am sure that this would not be welcomed by
digital cameras' manufacturers, as it will compete with their product.
Although some of the "players" are still the same (Kodak, Fuji, Nikon,
Canon, Pentax, etc).
Unfortunately, we are living in a world which are driven by narrow
"track of minds", set by big corporations which decided upon our
direction into the future.
Thanks for sharing my "dream". I am now awake from my day dreaming.
Thanks for the discussion.


Sounds like the old "silicon film."

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0109/01...mvaporizes.asp


Thanks for the reference to the "silicon film", Honestly, I never
heard that before. Again, there are people out there who have thought
ideas like this. However, I wonder why this particular idea became
"cold". Could it be for one or more of the following reasons?
- it was not developed by a big corporation with big dollar. Would it
make any difference if it was developed by Fuji or Kodak?
- Big camera companies may oppose the idea, as they have their own
agenda, or want to sell more digital cameras (therefore provide
"barrier" instead of promoting it).
- Expensive cost to develop, as well as to market against those
selling digital camera. Remember those new 35 mm film system, which
did not seem to "fly" just before the digital world take over... I
even forget the name... the one that can be printed in various sizes?
- Too restrictive of a product - i.e. the EFS (e-film) was only
targetted for specific cameras only. The idea of the silicon film/e-
film (after I read a PDF file from the developer in the web) was to
have the product ready for only certain Nikon and Canon 35 mm cameras.
My thinking was different. The product that I have in mind (similar to
the EFS or silicon film), is not only that it looks similar to the
existing 35 mm camera cartridge, it should function to ANY 35 mm
cameras... not just certain brand of camera. If Kodak/Fuji can sell a
35 mm film cartridge and fit to any cameras, why the silicon film can
work only for certain cameras?. I think this is the main drawback.
Perhaps with newer technology, the idea can be re-introduced and
improvement to the silicon film can be made? Or they "missed the
train" already?
I still think it is a neat idea, but it has to be relatively cheap to
compete with the current market.

Thanks for all replies in these newsgroups!

  #12  
Old April 7th 07, 02:12 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

In article .com,
wrote:

Thanks for the reference to the "silicon film", Honestly, I never
heard that before. Again, there are people out there who have thought
ideas like this. However, I wonder why this particular idea became
"cold". Could it be for one or more of the following reasons?


the main reason is that it requires physical modification to the camera
for it to work.

the surface of film is light sensitive, whereas the surface of a sensor
is not - it has the bayer filters, micro-lenses, anti-alias filter and
infrared cut filter in front of the actual light sensitive layer.
thus, one can't just put a filter up against the film rails and expect
things to be in focus - it would need to fit further forward.

that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
doing that.

if that problem was somehow solved, there would still need to be some
sort of communication between the camera and the device so it knew when
to read an image and store it.

and then there's little things like a fixed white balance and fixed iso
rating when it is the camera (just like film). or a readout for number
of pictures available and battery level.

other than that, it is a good idea.
  #13  
Old April 7th 07, 02:29 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
Robert Coe
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Posts: 4,901
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On 7 Apr 2007 05:18:52 -0700, wrote:
: Thanks for the reference to the "silicon film", Honestly, I never
: heard that before. Again, there are people out there who have thought
: ideas like this. However, I wonder why this particular idea became
: "cold". Could it be for one or more of the following reasons?
: - it was not developed by a big corporation with big dollar. Would it
: make any difference if it was developed by Fuji or Kodak?
: - Big camera companies may oppose the idea, as they have their own
: agenda, or want to sell more digital cameras (therefore provide
: "barrier" instead of promoting it).
: - Expensive cost to develop, as well as to market against those
: selling digital camera. Remember those new 35 mm film system, which
: did not seem to "fly" just before the digital world take over... I
: even forget the name... the one that can be printed in various sizes?
: - Too restrictive of a product - i.e. the EFS (e-film) was only
: targetted for specific cameras only. The idea of the silicon film/e-
: film (after I read a PDF file from the developer in the web) was to
: have the product ready for only certain Nikon and Canon 35 mm cameras.
: My thinking was different. The product that I have in mind (similar to
: the EFS or silicon film), is not only that it looks similar to the
: existing 35 mm camera cartridge, it should function to ANY 35 mm
: cameras... not just certain brand of camera. If Kodak/Fuji can sell a
: 35 mm film cartridge and fit to any cameras, why the silicon film can
: work only for certain cameras?. I think this is the main drawback.
: Perhaps with newer technology, the idea can be re-introduced and
: improvement to the silicon film can be made? Or they "missed the
: train" already?
: I still think it is a neat idea, but it has to be relatively cheap to
: compete with the current market.

I'm having difficulty seeing the point. Such a device would be heavy and
probably expensive, and it's hard to see it doing a better job than today's
digitals. I can understand that it may be a nifty technical challenge, but why
would someone actually want to buy one? And assuming that it did sell, the
market is decidedly self-limiting, because fewer and fewer people will have
old film cameras worth converting.

Bob
  #14  
Old April 7th 07, 02:39 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
Don Stauffer in Minnesota
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Posts: 464
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 6, 9:28 pm, wrote:
Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product? It is
just exactly like your old film cartridge, put into the back of your
camera, set the camera as it has a film in it, advance the lever ,
take photos, go to next shot, etc. The difference would be when you
complete the shots (24 or 36 exposure), you connect this cartridge to
your computer and downloaded the digital data, just like a media card
in your digital cameras. This product would be re-used again and
again, just like the digital cameras.
Some of you may said that is the same question whether there is a
"back cartridge" that can be fitted into the old Hasselblad, Mamiya RB
or M645, in which it changes into digital cameras. However, I heard
that this speacil back is very expensive. Correct me if such a product
exist for professional photographers, but at a very high costs! (such
that it is just easier to throw away the old cameras and buy a new
digital one).
The next question is whether technically this is possible. Will people
buy them, and use their old cameras (which some had invested heavily
before the digital era came to play). This sounds like a crazy idea,
but I sometime wonder that if it is possible. There are lots of smart
people and inventors in this world, and I am sure they have the brain
to create such a product. I am sure that this would not be welcomed by
digital cameras' manufacturers, as it will compete with their product.
Although some of the "players" are still the same (Kodak, Fuji, Nikon,
Canon, Pentax, etc).
Unfortunately, we are living in a world which are driven by narrow
"track of minds", set by big corporations which decided upon our
direction into the future.
Thanks for sharing my "dream". I am now awake from my day dreaming.
Thanks for the discussion.


Several years ago the group was flooded with questions based on a
premature release of such a product. I seem to recall they called it
"silicon film". Never went on sale- the effort folded. I believe,
for one thing, that the development took so long that the resolution
was far bypassed by the pure digital cameras. But I think there were
other problems too.

  #15  
Old April 7th 07, 03:32 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
Rich
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Posts: 718
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 6, 10:28 pm, wrote:
Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product?


Forget that, simply replace the back of any SLR with one housing a
sensor. Just think of the ease of sensor cleaning! Swing the back
open! The idea of doing this with an Olympus OM-1 was bandied about,
but the logistics would have been daunting.


  #16  
Old April 7th 07, 05:21 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
Bill Funk
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Posts: 2,500
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On 6 Apr 2007 19:28:31 -0700, wrote:

Let's for the moment we think "out of the box". If there is a product
which has the shape of either a 35 mm or 120 film cartridge, and you
can just load it into your old film camera. However, this product acts
like a digital "film", in which it will store images in digital
format, instead of into film, would you buy such a product? It is
just exactly like your old film cartridge, put into the back of your
camera, set the camera as it has a film in it, advance the lever ,
take photos, go to next shot, etc. The difference would be when you
complete the shots (24 or 36 exposure), you connect this cartridge to
your computer and downloaded the digital data, just like a media card
in your digital cameras. This product would be re-used again and
again, just like the digital cameras.


There is no way to make such a product as you describe, for reasons
already pointed out. Mainly, there just isn't room for the sensor
using the camera's original back, as the sensor is several times
thicker than film.
But the associated support hardware already fills purpose-made digital
cameras (have you ever seen cutaway or X-ray images of digital
cameras?). There is no way to fit the PCBs digital needs into film
bodies.
Plus, the logistics of even Silicon Film's back were too much for
actual production; each camera needs its own back (the production
nightmares of this are well imagined); cooling of the electronics is
seemingly ignored, upgrade paths are similarly ignored, connecting the
mandatory controls to the camera's shutter and aperture would be
different for each brand/model, to name just a few.
The idea sounds good at first, but quickly fails under the weight of
implementation.

--
THIS IS A SIG LINE; NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY!
The White House gave John Kerry's
campaign nemesis Sam Fox, who funded
the Swift Boat Veterans, a recess
appointment to Belgium on Wednesday.
Nothing ever changes. John Kerry
insisted he was for the appointment
before he was against the appointment.
  #17  
Old April 7th 07, 05:35 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
jazzology
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Posts: 6
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

On Apr 7, 11:21 am, Gisle Hannemyr wrote:
Kodak used to make digital backs for some Nikon film bodies.
At the link below is a photo of my Nikon N90s fitted with
a Kodak DCS 460 digital back:http://hannemyr.com/photo/dcs460.html
It was somewhat bigger than a film cartridge, tho'.

The Leica R8 and R9 also has a replaceable back, and can be fitted
with the DMR ro shoot digital, or a film back to shoot film.
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no -http://hannemyr.com/photo/]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was wondering about this very thing a few days ago. Your Kodak
conversion makes pretty good images.

I would give my bad eye for an F3hp viewfinder on my digital
Nik... If the current crop of DSLRs follows the same price curve...a
d200 will sell for 50$ in ten years... and so will a cheesburger OY!

Jazz

  #18  
Old April 8th 07, 12:02 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
Summer Wind[_2_]
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Posts: 92
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras


"nospam" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:
the main reason is that it requires physical modification to the camera
for it to work.

the surface of film is light sensitive, whereas the surface of a sensor
is not - it has the bayer filters, micro-lenses, anti-alias filter and
infrared cut filter in front of the actual light sensitive layer.
thus, one can't just put a filter up against the film rails and expect
things to be in focus - it would need to fit further forward.

that means either milling the film rails or fit the whole unit within
the film opening so the focal plane is physically in the right place.
unfortunately, there's a shutter mechanism that gets in the way of
doing that.


Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
There would also be more room for the support hardware. The sensor could be
something less than 6x6 film size and the surrounding area could poke into
the camera a little further to accommodate a hardware enclosure, and the
spool chambers could also house hardware.

SW


  #19  
Old April 8th 07, 12:23 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

In article , Summer
Wind wrote:

Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
There would also be more room for the support hardware. The sensor could be
something less than 6x6 film size and the surrounding area could poke into
the camera a little further to accommodate a hardware enclosure, and the
spool chambers could also house hardware.


there already are medium format digital backs:

http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1di...eries/Compatib
ility%20chart.aspx
  #20  
Old April 8th 07, 12:33 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc
Summer Wind[_2_]
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Posts: 92
Default Turning film cameras into digital cameras

"nospam" wrote in message
...
In article , Summer
Wind wrote:

Could it work with medium format TLRs? The shutter is in the lens. That
old Rolleiflex in the closet could have a new life as a digital camera.
There would also be more room for the support hardware. The sensor could
be
something less than 6x6 film size and the surrounding area could poke
into
the camera a little further to accommodate a hardware enclosure, and the
spool chambers could also house hardware.


there already are medium format digital backs:


For TLRs? There have been MF SLR digital backs for years, but I don't
recall one for TLRs. Your link did not work, by the way.

SW


 




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