Zeiss Ikonta Shutter - Rapid and Synchro - both have flash?

(Asking here because of the great expertise here. I also posted to the MF
group.)

It was/is my understanding that the old Zeiss Super Ikonta 'flash' shutter
was called a Synchro, and that the Rapid and other shutters had no flash
terminal.

However, on that big auction site a fellow has one with a Rapid shutter and
claims that it has a flash terminal. He says it is just next to the shutter
cocking lever. Is this atypical or am I just flat wrong?

It's item #230226141947

On 2/27/2008 5:33 AM jjs spake thus:

(Asking here because of the great expertise here. I also posted to the MF
group.)

It was/is my understanding that the old Zeiss Super Ikonta 'flash' shutter
was called a Synchro, and that the Rapid and other shutters had no flash
terminal.

However, on that big auction site a fellow has one with a Rapid shutter and
claims that it has a flash terminal. He says it is just next to the shutter
cocking lever. Is this atypical or am I just flat wrong?

It's item #230226141947

I just uncased my Moskva-5, which is the Soviet copy of that camera, and
sure enough, my Moment-24C shutter has a flash connection. Since the
camera is pretty much a note-for-note copy of the Super Ikonta, I'd
guess that the Zeiss shutter also had flash capability.

By the way, don't know if you're bidding on that camera, but it's one of
the cams I lust after. Someday ... (I'd also like to have a Voigtlander
Bessa (the 6x9 rangefinder model), and a Kodak Medalist, and ...).

jjs wrote in message
...
(Asking here because of the great expertise here. I also
posted to the MF group.)

It was/is my understanding that the old Zeiss Super Ikonta
'flash' shutter was called a Synchro, and that the Rapid
and other shutters had no flash terminal.

However, on that big auction site a fellow has one with a
Rapid shutter and claims that it has a flash terminal. He
says it is just next to the shutter cocking lever. Is this
atypical or am I just flat wrong?

It's item #230226141947



Somewhere I found a site illustrating all the Deckel
shutters with dates. Bookmarked on another machine and I
can't find it now.
It seem to me that a flash synch version of the
Compur-Rapid was made but synched only for strobe (X) synch.
The later Synchro-Compur synchs both M (Medium delay flash
bulbs) and X. Some Rolleiflex cameras made just after WW-2
have the X synch type of shutter.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
...

Somewhere I found a site illustrating all the Deckel shutters with
dates.

Deckel - that's a good lead. I will try to surf out the information.

Mine has a Compur Rapid. Where the eBay camera has a flash synch, is exactly
where the cable release is on mine.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...

By the way, don't know if you're bidding on that camera, but it's one of
the cams I lust after. Someday ... (I'd also like to have a Voigtlander
Bessa (the 6x9 rangefinder model), and a Kodak Medalist, and ...).

Nope. Not bidding. I check the site just to stay in touch with the
market. I have a 645 and 6x9 Super Ikonta, each in EX condition. It took me
only about forty years and several bad buys to find the good ones.

No flash synch on mine. #40642xx. Where the ebay seller's camera has its
flash synch, mine has a cable release socket. It looks entirely different.

Richard mentioned that perhaps one version had a shutter that worked only on
X. I can see how the shutter could have been made with a flash synch that
replaced the cable release. But were there X (electronic) flashes back then?

ASIDE: (I have a Russian device that adds a flash socket to these old
cameras. It goes into the cable release socket and has a variable delay
adjustment to synchcronize from X to M and longer. Very, very cool little
thing. I came across it by pure luck.)

jjs wrote in message
...
"Richard Knoppow" wrote in
message ...

Somewhere I found a site illustrating all the Deckel
shutters with dates.

Deckel - that's a good lead. I will try to surf out the
information.

Mine has a Compur Rapid. Where the eBay camera has a flash
synch, is exactly where the cable release is on mine.
That may be a modified shutter. Its relatively easy to
modify any of the old Compur or the Compound for X synch.
The tech doing it may have decided it was simpler to
sacrifice the cable release socket than to drill a new hole
for the connector.
Most shutters with built-in flash synch were made after
1945. Before that it was usual to use some form of solenoid.
Most were mounted externally but some Ilex shutters had a
second cable release socket for a screw-in solenoid.
The first Compur shutters with built-in synch were X
synch (flash is fired just as the shutter reaches maximum
opening) because that is very easy to do. All one needs is a
contact post mounted on the blade driving ring. For
flashbulbs the shutter opening must be delayed long enough
to allow the bulb to come up to maximum brightness. That is
usually doen with a clock-work delay in the shutter, often a
modified version of the time-delay mechanism (as it was in
the Kodak Flash Supermatic). This is actually also how the
solenoid works. The solenoid is energized when the bulb is
flashed but the magnetic and mechanical delay is set so that
the shutter tripping is delayed just enough to allow the
bulb to get started. Ilex made the first shutters with
built-in synch.
Kodak and Ilex shutters required that the delay
mechanism be cocked separately from the shutter, Compur and
Wollensak cocked both from the same lever.
Many people having Kodak Flash Supermatic shutters do
not realize that they are also X synch. There are two sets
of contacts in the shutter, one on the blade ring, the other
operated when the shutter delay mechanism is tripped. For X
synch the synchronizer is simply not cocked so the first set
of contacts never closes. The X synch contact has a
relatively high resistance in series with it so it can't
fire flash bulbs. This is done so that bulbs won't be
inadvertently fired when setting up.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
...

That may be a modified shutter. Its relatively easy to modify any of
the old Compur or the Compound for X synch.

!! That is quite encouraging! I will look for someone who will do that. I
actually use the 6x9 and a fill-flash would be wonderful. Recent picture
made with it he http://www.digoliardi.net/images/drake_m.jpg

[...]
Most shutters with built-in flash synch were made after 1945. Before
that it was usual to use some form of solenoid. [...]

Those solenoids are ingenious things. An interesting application is to use
one as an electric remote release. Just wire a two-cell flashlight case to
it, press the on button.

Trivia side: I have a Printex flashe. It uses no battery. It uses a magneto
to fire the flash and a cam on the magneto's shaft trips a mechanical
transfer to the shutter. Yup. I still use flashbulbs. Greatest things in the
world for off-the-camera huge light. See it he
http://www.digoliardi.net/printex/batt-free-flash.html

jjs wrote in message
...
"Richard Knoppow" wrote in
message ...

That may be a modified shutter. Its relatively easy to
modify any of the old Compur or the Compound for X synch.

!! That is quite encouraging! I will look for someone who
will do that. I actually use the 6x9 and a fill-flash
would be wonderful. Recent picture made with it he
http://www.digoliardi.net/images/drake_m.jpg

[...]
Most shutters with built-in flash synch were made
after 1945. Before that it was usual to use some form of
solenoid. [...]

Those solenoids are ingenious things. An interesting
application is to use one as an electric remote release.
Just wire a two-cell flashlight case to it, press the on
button.

Trivia side: I have a Printex flashe. It uses no battery.
It uses a magneto to fire the flash and a cam on the
magneto's shaft trips a mechanical transfer to the
shutter. Yup. I still use flashbulbs. Greatest things in
the world for off-the-camera huge light. See it he
http://www.digoliardi.net/printex/batt-free-flash.html



Just never fire a bulb off in your face... YIKES!!
I agree about using solenoids for remote tripping.
Silent and no limit on distance. Some shutters, particularly
the Kodak Supermatic and Flash Supermatic, will not trip at
1/400 with just two batteries and sometimes not with three.
This was a problem in the old days and extra-high-voltage
photoflash batteries were made for just this purpose. Its
possible to find case extenders for Graflex flashguns to
take an additional battery. This is usually enough to get
the solenoid to trip reliably on 1/400th second and insure
the voltage stays high enough to fire the bulb. Older Compur
shutters, found on Speed Graphics, also have a high tripping
pressure at the top speed (usually 1/200th) so will do
better with an additonal battery. I have been trying to
design an adaptor for getting smaller batteries in the
Graflex case without modifying it. Four cells or even a
9volt battery would insure reliable tripping and
synchronization.
Espcially on Anniversary Graphics press photgraphers
preferred to trip the shutter using the solenoid even when
equipped with shutters with built-in synchronizers. This is
because of the convenience of having the trip button on the
case, which also works as a handle.
Flash bulbs put out more light for the weight than any
other source. They were replaced with strobe because of
convenience and because bulbs were always rather expensive.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
...

Just never fire a bulb off in your face... YIKES!!
I agree about using solenoids for remote tripping. Silent and no limit
on distance. Some shutters, particularly the Kodak Supermatic and Flash
Supermatic, will not trip at 1/400 with just two batteries and sometimes
not with three. This was a problem in the old days and extra-high-voltage
photoflash batteries were made for just this purpose.

Yup! I know. Radio-Shack, still offer the old 22.5V batteries that those
units used. This link shows a camera that used the same.
http://www.digoliardi.net/ks6/

I had that set since 1968, and later sold that for a bloody fortune.
Sometimes life it good.

jjs wrote in message
...

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in
message ...

Just never fire a bulb off in your face... YIKES!!
I agree about using solenoids for remote tripping.
Silent and no limit on distance. Some shutters,
particularly the Kodak Supermatic and Flash Supermatic,
will not trip at 1/400 with just two batteries and
sometimes not with three. This was a problem in the old
days and extra-high-voltage photoflash batteries were
made for just this purpose.

Yup! I know. Radio-Shack, still offer the old 22.5V
batteries that those units used. This link shows a camera
that used the same.
http://www.digoliardi.net/ks6/

I had that set since 1968, and later sold that for a
bloody fortune. Sometimes life it good.

The 22.5V batteries were used in several BC type
flashguns including one of the Rolleiflash units. I don't
think they were ever used for solenoid flash. The "high
voltage" batteries I was talking about were standard Size-D
cells with something special about the mix. They were enough
higher than the standard 1.5V so that three of them in a
standard flashgun would have enough extra oomph to deal with
hard to trip shutters. I don't think these have been made
for decades. I don't know what was done to them to increase
the voltage but they had a reputation for having short life.
When Wollensak came out with the Rapax shutter it was
designed to eliminate this problem by having a constant and
relatively low "trigger pull" at all speeds. Although
Wollensak made some flakey lenses their shutters were always
excellent.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA