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low light movie works better than low light still photos why?



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 12th 09, 09:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Ron Hunter
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Posts: 4,064
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

daveFaktor wrote:
John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:36:33 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:02 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
Wow! The light was so low it blew the the highlights on old grey haired
bloke in the background. Now *THAT* is low light photography at it's best!
Nonsense.
It only goes to demonstrate the narrow dynamic range of Panasonic
sensors. Try as they might, Panasonic can't do much about with their
current (and future it world seem) technology.

Likewise nonsense.

Had you (1) an open mind and (2) bothered to look at the EXIF data, you
would have seen that this handheld image was actually a remarkable
achievement.


If you qualified that with "for a P&S" you might have gained some
credibility. The fact is John - and one you consistently fail to
recognise - is that just the miniature sensors in P&S cameras guarantee
a noisey picture. 3 or 4 other factors work against them producing low
noise images too.

There are some things a P&S can do that a DSLR is either hard pushed to
achieve or can't achieve at all but noise control is not one of them.
The only reason your camera can take a low light picture at all is the
extremely low shutter speeds you can use. We used to use FZ50
Panasonic's at 1/15th (hand held) for low light shots. There's examples
he
http://www.d-mac.info/previews/scott-katrina/

That doesn't mean I'd use one for action capture or critical work where
large prints are expected. Like this one. The canvas print is over six
feet wide. A totally impossible shot for a P&S.

http://www.d-mac.info/examples/HDRatdawn.htm


The size of a print depends on the resolution of the original image, and
there are plenty of 10mp P&S cameras that can supply data to a large
print. So what is the resolution of the camera you used?

The whole issue is not about fanatical devotion to a particular brand
because you happen to own one but choosing the right tool for the job. I
make movies in natural light, with a D90 set at ISO 3200. Maybe a RED
camera might equal it's ability but I won't be shelling out $60,000 for
one when a D90 does just as well - *FOR MY USE*.

  #12  
Old June 12th 09, 11:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Holy Fuck - the morons never quit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:04:30 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

daveFaktor wrote:
John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:36:33 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:02 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
Wow! The light was so low it blew the the highlights on old grey haired
bloke in the background. Now *THAT* is low light photography at it's best!
Nonsense.
It only goes to demonstrate the narrow dynamic range of Panasonic
sensors. Try as they might, Panasonic can't do much about with their
current (and future it world seem) technology.
Likewise nonsense.

Had you (1) an open mind and (2) bothered to look at the EXIF data, you
would have seen that this handheld image was actually a remarkable
achievement.


If you qualified that with "for a P&S" you might have gained some
credibility. The fact is John - and one you consistently fail to
recognise - is that just the miniature sensors in P&S cameras guarantee
a noisey picture. 3 or 4 other factors work against them producing low
noise images too.

There are some things a P&S can do that a DSLR is either hard pushed to
achieve or can't achieve at all but noise control is not one of them.
The only reason your camera can take a low light picture at all is the
extremely low shutter speeds you can use. We used to use FZ50
Panasonic's at 1/15th (hand held) for low light shots. There's examples
he
http://www.d-mac.info/previews/scott-katrina/

That doesn't mean I'd use one for action capture or critical work where
large prints are expected. Like this one. The canvas print is over six
feet wide. A totally impossible shot for a P&S.

http://www.d-mac.info/examples/HDRatdawn.htm


The size of a print depends on the resolution of the original image, and
there are plenty of 10mp P&S cameras that can supply data to a large
print. So what is the resolution of the camera you used?



Wrong-o, simpleton moron beginner gear-head ( = not a photographer). The
printable size of the image depends solely on the content and subject
matter. It has very little to nothing to do with the resolution of the
camera's image. You'll figure it out, someday. Maybe. Probably not.

Tell me, just how large can you print an eye-catchingly beautiful
mist-shrouded water-scene from a 5 megapixel camera when using adequate
upsampling interpolation, before the viewer will ever notice?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a strong composition of bold
geometrics from a 1 megapixel camera before the viewer ever notices?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a tight-shot of the assassination of
some world-loved political leader when taken with a 3 megapixel camera?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


Content means EVERYTHING.

  #13  
Old June 13th 09, 06:49 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
A Parade of DSLR-Idiots
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Posts: 1
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:30:50 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

John Navas wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:18:52 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:42:25 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:


Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
That's very good for a compact camera, but only ISO 800. I routinely
shoot at ISO 1600, then push the RAW image another stop or two.
I routinely shoot at 1-2 stops wider than a roughly comparable dSLR
lens, which makes up for the difference.
In my case, I'm usually also shooting wide open with F1.4 or F1.8
primes. It's more case of available darkness than available light. ;^)


Had you checked the EXIF data of my image, you would have found that
I was much too far away to use a 50 mm lens.


According to your EXIF, your 35mm equivalent FL was 200mm. On my 1Dmk2,
I could've used my EF135mm/F2L for an equivalent 175mm @ F2. Or I
could've dug out the 10D, used the same lens for an effective 216mm @
F2. ;^)


While having to haul another 4 lbs. of weight (3 to 4 times more weight
than any whole P&S camera alone), this isn't even considering the annoying
weight and size of your DSLR brick added in. Then being stopped at the door
because they're not going to let you use it during a public performance.
Preventing you from disturbing everyone with the loud and obnoxious
clattering mirror and shutter.

So yes, you could have used it, but certainly not to get any photos. You
could have obtained exercise and disappointment perhaps, but no photos.

You DSLR fools are all alike. Never once considering reality.

  #14  
Old June 13th 09, 09:27 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Ron Hunter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,064
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

Holy **** - the morons never quit wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:04:30 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

daveFaktor wrote:
John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:36:33 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:02 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
Wow! The light was so low it blew the the highlights on old grey haired
bloke in the background. Now *THAT* is low light photography at it's best!
Nonsense.
It only goes to demonstrate the narrow dynamic range of Panasonic
sensors. Try as they might, Panasonic can't do much about with their
current (and future it world seem) technology.
Likewise nonsense.

Had you (1) an open mind and (2) bothered to look at the EXIF data, you
would have seen that this handheld image was actually a remarkable
achievement.

If you qualified that with "for a P&S" you might have gained some
credibility. The fact is John - and one you consistently fail to
recognise - is that just the miniature sensors in P&S cameras guarantee
a noisey picture. 3 or 4 other factors work against them producing low
noise images too.

There are some things a P&S can do that a DSLR is either hard pushed to
achieve or can't achieve at all but noise control is not one of them.
The only reason your camera can take a low light picture at all is the
extremely low shutter speeds you can use. We used to use FZ50
Panasonic's at 1/15th (hand held) for low light shots. There's examples
he
http://www.d-mac.info/previews/scott-katrina/

That doesn't mean I'd use one for action capture or critical work where
large prints are expected. Like this one. The canvas print is over six
feet wide. A totally impossible shot for a P&S.

http://www.d-mac.info/examples/HDRatdawn.htm

The size of a print depends on the resolution of the original image, and
there are plenty of 10mp P&S cameras that can supply data to a large
print. So what is the resolution of the camera you used?



Wrong-o, simpleton moron beginner gear-head ( = not a photographer). The
printable size of the image depends solely on the content and subject
matter. It has very little to nothing to do with the resolution of the
camera's image. You'll figure it out, someday. Maybe. Probably not.

Tell me, just how large can you print an eye-catchingly beautiful
mist-shrouded water-scene from a 5 megapixel camera when using adequate
upsampling interpolation, before the viewer will ever notice?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a strong composition of bold
geometrics from a 1 megapixel camera before the viewer ever notices?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a tight-shot of the assassination of
some world-loved political leader when taken with a 3 megapixel camera?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


Content means EVERYTHING.

Your personal attacks indicate that you know you are wrong, and don't
have a cogent thought on the subject.
IF the content is all important (and it IS a factor, but only one
factor), then I should be able to make such a large print from even a
1.3 mp P&S, right? No? Proves who is wrong here, doesn't it? BTW, your
repetition of the phrase doesn't improve your argument, only makes you
look like a petulant child.
  #15  
Old June 13th 09, 09:38 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,312
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

daveFaktor wrote:

It only goes to demonstrate the narrow dynamic range of Panasonic
sensors. Try as they might, Panasonic can't do much about with their
current (and future it world seem) technology.


Which is a damn shame since if you shop by specs and features alone the
Panasonics would appear to be an excellent choice, while in reality the
poor dynamic range and high noise make them among the worst choices.
  #16  
Old June 13th 09, 09:52 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,312
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

daveFaktor wrote:

The whole issue is not about fanatical devotion to a particular brand
because you happen to own one but choosing the right tool for the job.


It's always amusing to see posts where the premise is, "I bought it, so
it must be the best product."

The FZ28 is a strange animal. Every review complains about soft, noisy
photos, due to the sensor and the noise reduction (though if you shoot
in raw mode you can get around the noise reduction and apply your own
post-processing). Yet the one thing they could have done to help users
mitigate the noise issue was to include a hot shoe for a powerful
external flash. The Canon SX10IS is a better choice for a ZLR due to
it's lower noise and hot shoe.
  #17  
Old June 13th 09, 12:06 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
daveFaktor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

Ron Hunter wrote:
Holy **** - the morons never quit wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:04:30 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

daveFaktor wrote:
John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:36:33 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:02 +1000, daveFaktor

wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to
a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good
job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
Wow! The light was so low it blew the the highlights on old grey
haired bloke in the background. Now *THAT* is low light
photography at it's best!
Nonsense.
It only goes to demonstrate the narrow dynamic range of Panasonic
sensors. Try as they might, Panasonic can't do much about with
their current (and future it world seem) technology.
Likewise nonsense.
Had you (1) an open mind and (2) bothered to look at the EXIF data,
you
would have seen that this handheld image was actually a remarkable
achievement.

If you qualified that with "for a P&S" you might have gained some
credibility. The fact is John - and one you consistently fail to
recognise - is that just the miniature sensors in P&S cameras
guarantee a noisey picture. 3 or 4 other factors work against them
producing low noise images too.

There are some things a P&S can do that a DSLR is either hard pushed
to achieve or can't achieve at all but noise control is not one of
them. The only reason your camera can take a low light picture at
all is the extremely low shutter speeds you can use. We used to use
FZ50 Panasonic's at 1/15th (hand held) for low light shots. There's
examples he
http://www.d-mac.info/previews/scott-katrina/

That doesn't mean I'd use one for action capture or critical work
where large prints are expected. Like this one. The canvas print is
over six feet wide. A totally impossible shot for a P&S.

http://www.d-mac.info/examples/HDRatdawn.htm

The size of a print depends on the resolution of the original image,
and there are plenty of 10mp P&S cameras that can supply data to a
large print. So what is the resolution of the camera you used?



Wrong-o, simpleton moron beginner gear-head ( = not a photographer). The
printable size of the image depends solely on the content and subject
matter. It has very little to nothing to do with the resolution of the
camera's image. You'll figure it out, someday. Maybe. Probably not.

Tell me, just how large can you print an eye-catchingly beautiful
mist-shrouded water-scene from a 5 megapixel camera when using adequate
upsampling interpolation, before the viewer will ever notice?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a strong composition of bold
geometrics from a 1 megapixel camera before the viewer ever notices?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a tight-shot of the assassination of
some world-loved political leader when taken with a 3 megapixel camera?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


Content means EVERYTHING.

Your personal attacks indicate that you know you are wrong, and don't
have a cogent thought on the subject.
IF the content is all important (and it IS a factor, but only one
factor), then I should be able to make such a large print from even a
1.3 mp P&S, right? No? Proves who is wrong here, doesn't it? BTW, your
repetition of the phrase doesn't improve your argument, only makes you
look like a petulant child.


I think what he's trying to say Ron is that an image with 3 vertical
colour bars in it that is 1 Mp in size could be enlarged to massive size
where a same size an image with wispy hair and lots of detail (content)
might show it's jaggies at as little as a 5x7 inch print and wouldn't
enlarge (upsize) very far at all.
  #18  
Old June 13th 09, 03:11 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Stan Redwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:06:13 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote:
Holy **** - the morons never quit wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:04:30 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

daveFaktor wrote:
John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:36:33 +1000, daveFaktor
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:56:02 +1000, daveFaktor

wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to
a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good
job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
Wow! The light was so low it blew the the highlights on old grey
haired bloke in the background. Now *THAT* is low light
photography at it's best!
Nonsense.
It only goes to demonstrate the narrow dynamic range of Panasonic
sensors. Try as they might, Panasonic can't do much about with
their current (and future it world seem) technology.
Likewise nonsense.
Had you (1) an open mind and (2) bothered to look at the EXIF data,
you
would have seen that this handheld image was actually a remarkable
achievement.

If you qualified that with "for a P&S" you might have gained some
credibility. The fact is John - and one you consistently fail to
recognise - is that just the miniature sensors in P&S cameras
guarantee a noisey picture. 3 or 4 other factors work against them
producing low noise images too.

There are some things a P&S can do that a DSLR is either hard pushed
to achieve or can't achieve at all but noise control is not one of
them. The only reason your camera can take a low light picture at
all is the extremely low shutter speeds you can use. We used to use
FZ50 Panasonic's at 1/15th (hand held) for low light shots. There's
examples he
http://www.d-mac.info/previews/scott-katrina/

That doesn't mean I'd use one for action capture or critical work
where large prints are expected. Like this one. The canvas print is
over six feet wide. A totally impossible shot for a P&S.

http://www.d-mac.info/examples/HDRatdawn.htm

The size of a print depends on the resolution of the original image,
and there are plenty of 10mp P&S cameras that can supply data to a
large print. So what is the resolution of the camera you used?


Wrong-o, simpleton moron beginner gear-head ( = not a photographer). The
printable size of the image depends solely on the content and subject
matter. It has very little to nothing to do with the resolution of the
camera's image. You'll figure it out, someday. Maybe. Probably not.

Tell me, just how large can you print an eye-catchingly beautiful
mist-shrouded water-scene from a 5 megapixel camera when using adequate
upsampling interpolation, before the viewer will ever notice?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a strong composition of bold
geometrics from a 1 megapixel camera before the viewer ever notices?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


How large can you upsample and print a tight-shot of the assassination of
some world-loved political leader when taken with a 3 megapixel camera?

Wrong guess, try again, you ****ingly stupid moron.


Content means EVERYTHING.

Your personal attacks indicate that you know you are wrong, and don't
have a cogent thought on the subject.
IF the content is all important (and it IS a factor, but only one
factor), then I should be able to make such a large print from even a
1.3 mp P&S, right? No? Proves who is wrong here, doesn't it? BTW, your
repetition of the phrase doesn't improve your argument, only makes you
look like a petulant child.


I think what he's trying to say Ron is that an image with 3 vertical
colour bars in it that is 1 Mp in size could be enlarged to massive size
where a same size an image with wispy hair and lots of detail (content)
might show it's jaggies at as little as a 5x7 inch print and wouldn't
enlarge (upsize) very far at all.


It goes far beyond that. It's not just the amount of detail and type of
detail in the image. The message conveyed or the human-impact made by the
image can also withstand extraordinary amounts of upsampling for large-size
printing.

Take for example:

While I was traversing the wilds a few years back, an apprentice of mine
photographed some poachers burning what was left of their meal. Good group
of guys, all subsistence-living types. The so-called "endangered" 'gator is
so plentiful there that you could walk on their backs without touching
water for miles. (Slight exaggeration but almost true in many places.) All
that my apprentice had was a 1024x768 (a lowly 0.79 megapixel) resolution
camera to learn with at the time. His very first digital. That's all that
anyone really needs to learn on. Anyway, the poachers built a large bonfire
that night then threw what was left of the 15-foot 'gator carcass on the
fire so as not to leave any evidence behind. The 'gator's head was facing
outward from deep within the flames. He snapped off a photo of it that
night with his "beginner's" camera. I didn't bother, I was too drunk, sated
on 'gator-tail, and enjoying the camaraderie. Now thinking I should have
taken a photo of it, but that's now water under the kayak.

Later in the week when we were back at our own base-camp and printing some
of the previous days' & nights' photos he started to learn what all those
DPI, PPI, and other digital-image-processing variables were for. When he
printed that burning-'gator photo at 8x10 the image was a mass of pixel
blocks easy to see from a good distance. He was so disappointed. I then
showed him how upsampling will smooth out those pixels for printing, just
as an exercise to show him what all those numbers were for and why they
matter for digital photography. (A good teaching example, he finally had an
"Ah-hah" moment over the whole ordeal where it finally clicked.)
Surprisingly this image is so striking that we were able to, through a
process of upsampling steps and tightening the edges each time by using a
Fourier transform, print that image to a 13"x19" size in the end. I too
learned a valuable lesson from this image. The skull of that 'gator burning
in an intense fire is so overwhelming to the viewer that they don't even
see the soft edges. The flames themselves mask that. And the glowing edges
of the 'gator's skull and teeth look even more intense because of their
softness. The viewer's mind doesn't care about "details" because the
content of the image itself jaw-drop-astounds them. That 13"x19" photo is
now expensively framed and hanging proudly in a posh big-game-hunter's
lodge. Nobody ever realizing that it only came from a "lowly" 1024x768
resolution image, nor do any of them care what its original resolution was.
They still paid handsomely for that image and were glad to do so.

It's not just 3 straight bars that can be printed to billboard size. An
assassination of some beloved leader if taken only with a cell-phone camera
could be printed billboard size too and nobody would ever complain about
the snide mocking-voice on "image quality". snide mocking-voice off

It's __**NEVER**__ about the pixel resolution, it's __**ALWAYS**__ about
the content.

Ignorant internet taught bit-heads, gear-heads, and bean-counters can cry
about this all they want but them's the facts of reality and human
perception.

Deal with it.



  #19  
Old June 14th 09, 07:44 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
dan frescher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default low light movie works better than low light still photos why?

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:07:39 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

A Parade of DSLR-Idiots wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:30:50 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

John Navas wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:18:52 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:42:25 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote in :

John Navas wrote:
Another solution, less radical and expensive, is to upgrade to a compact
camera with better low light performance. My FZ28 does a good job of
low light stage photography. http://i42.tinypic.com/2wfsqo6.jpg
That's very good for a compact camera, but only ISO 800. I routinely
shoot at ISO 1600, then push the RAW image another stop or two.
I routinely shoot at 1-2 stops wider than a roughly comparable dSLR
lens, which makes up for the difference.
In my case, I'm usually also shooting wide open with F1.4 or F1.8
primes. It's more case of available darkness than available light. ;^)
Had you checked the EXIF data of my image, you would have found that
I was much too far away to use a 50 mm lens.
According to your EXIF, your 35mm equivalent FL was 200mm. On my 1Dmk2,
I could've used my EF135mm/F2L for an equivalent 175mm @ F2. Or I
could've dug out the 10D, used the same lens for an effective 216mm @
F2. ;^)


While having to haul another 4 lbs. of weight (3 to 4 times more weight
than any whole P&S camera alone), this isn't even considering the annoying
weight and size of your DSLR brick added in. Then being stopped at the door
because they're not going to let you use it during a public performance.


You think? - I've photographed numerous public performances with my DSLR
'bricks', because I'm smart enough to arrange permission in advance, or
have checked that I don't need permission.


Numerous? As in the 2-5% of public performances and public places that
might allow you through the door with a DSLR? What vast photographic
opportunities you have. I bet it reflects in all the photos from the small
sum of your experience too.

I noticed that you snipped out the part about how you are a public nuisance
and annoyance everywhere you go, permission or not. Bothered you to read
that, did it? Bothered you to have anyone else read that again, did it?

Someday you'll start to pay attention to all those people that are cringing
and making faces whenever you are around with your annoying and obnoxiously
loud and large (required-penis-extender) camera. It won't change your
behavior though. Your crippled-ego is so desperate that you need any
attention you can get, good or bad, you even publicly beg for it daily.

PS: We're still waiting to see some of your amazing P&S shots.


And wait you shall. Wear out another set of knee-pads while groveling and
begging. LOL!!!!!!

 




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