Rule of f16

Alan Browne wrote:

"Precision"? With so much variance in meters, meter geometry and film
sensitivities, meter precision is not as important as knowing your meter
and your film well.

Indeed. Couldn't agree more. And that includes knowing your personal bias.
People tend to interpret a scene and/or the results of metering in a
particular way, and blame the meter, or the film they are using for the
not-quite-right results they are getting. I, for instance, always are a bit
too "optimistic", so i have to set lower ISO values.
They should teach that at Trevor's school (maybe they do, i don't know),
rather than that quaint guessing game disguised as "rule".

But once you know all that, the sunny-16 thing is still guessing, while
metering is not.

Anyway, it all reminds me of the battery-dependency-is-evil era, during
which no self respecting photographer would consider using, let alone
buying, cameras that needed batteries to operate. It was just not-done.
I can't remember the last time (come to think of it, nor the first time) i
was caught out by flat batteries stopping play. I never had to guess
exposure (i have guessed, yes. But never had to.) So i think the best thing
to do with that "rule" is to put it away somewhere safe, never to be seen
again.

Bob Monaghan wrote:

yes, I agree. You understood my major point, which is that there is a lot
of interpretation and experience which has to go into using various spot
meters, reflective and incident light meters in general, and aspects of
their use (such as situations like black cats in a coal bin for reflective
meters (even spot meters)) require experience to adjust readings in light
(pun intended) of these meter limitations.

This is as much a "best guesstimate" as my interpreting dark well defined
shadows vs. light shadows for the rule of sunny-16.

Well, no. Not "as much".
The "rule" keeps you guessing about two things: the actual illumination, and
how to deal with that vis-a-vis de particulars of the subject. Metering only
keeps you guessing about the latter.

The nice thing about the rule of sunny-16 is that it costs us nothing, is
distributed free printed inside many film boxes, and serves as a useful
check on proper settings and function of our main metering device.

Does it?
Yes, it does. But only if the fault in the meter is of considerably greater
magnitude than the fault inherent in guessing.
;-)

As for David's faith in spotmeters, having both an older analog and a
newer digital spotmeter, I am like the joke - a man with one watch always
knows the correct time, while a man with two watches is never really sure.
[i.e., he gets different answers from each watch]. It isn't unusual to
have multiple meters esp. of different types (selenium backup, SBC
luna pro, CdS etc.) give readings which don't precisely agree, right? ;-)

Absolutely!

In such cases, I do best by going with whichever meter is closest to my
sunny-16 guesstimate ;-)

Ah, well... ;-)

"Q.G. de Bakker" wrote:

As for David's faith in spotmeters, having both an older analog and a
newer digital spotmeter, I am like the joke - a man with one watch
always
knows the correct time, while a man with two watches is never really
sure.
[i.e., he gets different answers from each watch]. It isn't unusual to
have multiple meters esp. of different types (selenium backup, SBC
luna pro, CdS etc.) give readings which don't precisely agree, right?
;-)

Absolutely!

Absolutely not. One keeps an eye on whether one's meters are working
correctly be looking at the results. And one doesn't use 30 year old flaky
meters.

In such cases, I do best by going with whichever meter is closest to my
sunny-16 guesstimate ;-)

Ah, well... ;-)

I do best by comparing how my slides look with how I'm metering and making
sure that the meter (and metering technique) is placing things where I want
them.

Sheesh. This all started because I noticed that sunny 16 gave the wrong
answer enough of the time that it's unacceptable.

Bobm seems to have completely missed that point.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

David J. Littleboy wrote:

Sheesh. This all started because I noticed that sunny 16 gave the wrong
answer enough of the time that it's unacceptable.

No, no, no.
This all started because someone had been taught the sunny-16 "rule" and
then asked whether it was applicable to other formats than 35 mm.

They "drill" a crappy "rule" like that, but fail to teach the basic stuff...
Makes you wonder about what kind of school that is exactly, doesn't it?

"David J. Littleboy" wrote in message
...

Absolutely not. One keeps an eye on whether one's meters are working
correctly be looking at the results. And one doesn't use 30 year old flaky
meters.

This _One_ does. Well, not flaky meters but I do have several working
Westons (and several broken ones, too.)

Have you noticed that when your meter goes whacko you _know_ it does and if
you reach into your experience at that moment you will realize you probably
don't need a meter.

(Bob Monaghan) wrote in message ...

You meter from a mid-grey area in the scene (grass is usually good)
and then bracket.

Duh......

you mean "guessing", as in guessing whether or not the reflective meter is
reacting to a black cat in a coal bin style situation, or where the tiny
critical subject is somebody's face when highlighted by a spotlight on a
black stage, or that kind of metering challenge "guessing" situation? ;-)

"David J. Littleboy" wrote in message ...
"Q.G. de Bakker" wrote:

As for David's faith in spotmeters, having both an older analog and a
newer digital spotmeter, I am like the joke - a man with one watch
always
knows the correct time, while a man with two watches is never really
sure.
[i.e., he gets different answers from each watch]. It isn't unusual to
have multiple meters esp. of different types (selenium backup, SBC
luna pro, CdS etc.) give readings which don't precisely agree, right?
;-)

Absolutely!

Absolutely not. One keeps an eye on whether one's meters are working
correctly be looking at the results. And one doesn't use 30 year old flaky
meters.

In such cases, I do best by going with whichever meter is closest to my
sunny-16 guesstimate ;-)

Ah, well... ;-)

I do best by comparing how my slides look with how I'm metering and making
sure that the meter (and metering technique) is placing things where I want
them.

Sheesh. This all started because I noticed that sunny 16 gave the wrong
answer enough of the time that it's unacceptable.

F/11 is closer in my experience....


Bobm seems to have completely missed that point.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

"David J. Littleboy" wrote in message ...
"Lassi Hippeläinen" wrote:
Hemi4268 wrote:

Generally, f16 is good in Washington DC in September.

It is pretty good also here in Europe.

In Japan, my eye tells me that the light is bright and harsh, but when I
actually meter things, f/8 seems to be the most common result at 1/film
speed.

Maybe I need a vacation.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

F/11 seems about right most of the time in my experience (Ohio)

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote:
"David J. Littleboy" wrote:

Sheesh. This all started because I noticed that sunny 16 gave the wrong
answer enough of the time that it's unacceptable.

F/11 is closer in my experience....

Yup. Earlier in this thread I wrote f/8, but I think I was mis-remembering.

Anyway, even if sunny 16 were correct, it'd still be wrong because (at least
for the stuff I do) I want to reproduce the apparent effect of the scene on
the viewer, not to produce the equivalent of a studio catalog shot of the
subject. That means I need to place the subject on the zone that best
renders the appearance, not the subject's reflectivity.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

Lots of us have cameras with "30 year old" meters, or even "30 year old"
handheld meters. I must have 20 or 25 cameras with meters, and a number of
handheld meters (digital spot, analog spot, flash/null meters etc.) that
require batteries, and some selenium ones that don't for cold weather use
too ;-) The meters work fine with the original battery types, but some are
very hard to get (e.g., mercury) and others are often recommended or
provided as substitutes which are not compatible with current demands in
some situations.

==== flaky batteries

My "flaky" batteries are coming from camera chain distributors and others
out to make extra bucks by selling Chinese alkaline hearing aid batteries
at full price as a direct replacements for silver oxide and more current
capable alkaline cells of similar size (i.e., MS76a for sundry nikon 35mm
SLR meters). In some meters (with bridge circuits..) substitute cells
usually work, but the Chinese batteries have high leakage and low current
output.

So the meters will read okay in some lighting situations (requiring low
current drain), but be several stops off in others (when high current is
required). They may read okay for a few minutes due to surface charge
effects, then read 2 or more stops off after being on for a few minutes in
the identical lighting situation. With print film this kind of range is
not so bad as to make prints impossible, but not so with slides in most
cases ;-(

The batteries may be unlabeled, as are some of the originals, or they may
be stamped with an equiv. type (e.g., LR33a) but there isn't any
indication that these replacement batteries are current limited at lower
levels than the standard (more costly) US or European made ones of the
same kind. The only way to tell is with the right load resistor and
battery test meter (see Everyready Battery manual for meter circuit etc.)

So you walk into a camera store, you pay full dollars for a pair of camera
batteries, they are stamped LR33 or whatever just as the replacement
battery chart the store clerk shows you recommends, then you check them in
the dim store lighting, and the readings seems reasonable. You take them
outside, now you own them ;-) After a few weeks in use (surface charge
build-up), you discover that in full daylight they disagree with sunny-16
reading by 2 or 3 stops. Ooops! You have "chinese battery syndrome" ;-)

=======

I'm not saying that metering doesn't provide benefits; obviously, I have a
lot invested in buying lightmeters of various sorts (and building some
underwater meters of my own design around LM3914 chips).

I am simply saying that faulting the rule of sunny-16 because it involves
a "guess" is not fair. There are lots of issues with properly using meters
that require us to interpret the scene or our meter reading, angles of
coverage, etc. - all of which make it rather less of a science than an
art. And your eyeball can be quite accurate in metering light under
daylight conditions using the sunny-16 rules, at least to within a half
stop or so, and that's as close as many meters will be to agreeing with
each other ;-)

grins bobm

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