Inkjet printing both sides

"rjn" wrote in message
...
On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:
(snip)

For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

--
Regards, Bob Niland

Wrong, Bob. Results with good quality refill inks are absolutely
predictable. I've used MIS (imaging Specialists) and now Imaging Specialist
inks from Precision Colors in my Canon i960 and Canon ip5000 for nearly four
years with totally stable results. The colors are extremely close to Canon
OEM inks. If I wanted to get the colors abolutely spot on with the images
on my monitor I would calibrate my monitor and get a custom profile for the
ink/paper combination I use most often. Of course, you must also be using
software that has the ability to do color management with a custom profile.
Canon OEM inks tend, in the i960, to over emphasize red tones - not perfect
by any means!

My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing both sides of
paper, why would you offer an unsolicited, gratuitous comment on the evils
of aftermarket inks? I know that some posters on the thread did comment on
various inks, but the major difference noted was between dye and pigment
based inks. Do you feel compelled to protect us from those vicious vendors
of cheap colored water posing as inkjet inks, or are you Measekite's alter
ego???

Your point is actually well taken, and you are correct. Some large
format inkjet printers did and may still use heaters to dry ink. The
larger printers need to run faster, and to decrease drying time they may
use heaters. In general these heaters are relatively low temperature
compared with laser fusers, but you are correct. HP uses some swellable
polymer papers which are slow to dry, but work well with thermal inkjet
heads, and that paper does protect against fading by integrating the
inks into the polymer layer.

Third party inks may take a bit more experimentation to profile
correctly and in choosing paper types, but the other side is it may open
you up to many more papers via 3rd party and the savings in both ink and
paper can be substantial for those who wish to take the time to figure
it out.

Art


rjn wrote:
On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:

Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper.

Not quite true. Some inkjet printers have heaters to dry the ink.

I know that the hp DeskJet 1200 and 1600 had this feature, but
it's unlikely any of those are still in use. I would not be surprised
to learn that later or still-current models from one of more makers
have this feature.

Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
will necessarily give the best quality print.

"Works with all" often means "not quite satisfactory results with
all".
It could be subtext for "don't use in your laser printer" :-)

For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

--
Regards, Bob Niland
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

Hi Burt,

I know this is a sensitive area on this newsgroup, unfortunately, due to
our neighborhood troll, but I think you may be "killing the messenger"
in this case.

I think the reason Bob brought this matter up was probably because I
made a comment in my small treatise on paper types about OEM ink and
paper combinations being more reliable than mixing and matching. In
general, this is true, BTW. Most inks and papers made or distributed
under the name of the OEM will have been tested if not formulated for
each other.

However, that doesn't preclude that 3rd party inks and papers can't or
won't work. It is just that they take more testing to determine which
work best with one another. For the occasional printer, who wants
consistent results without a lot of experimentation or wishful thinking,
using OEM will probably be a better choice, although considerably more
costly.

For people who do a lot of printing and go through a lot of consumables,
it may well be worth it to experiment and test to find the best ink and
paper combinations. It can save well over 50% which can become
substantial for those who churn out even a couple of prints a day.

Art


Burt wrote:
"rjn" wrote in message
...
On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:
(snip)
For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

--
Regards, Bob Niland

Wrong, Bob. Results with good quality refill inks are absolutely
predictable. I've used MIS (imaging Specialists) and now Imaging Specialist
inks from Precision Colors in my Canon i960 and Canon ip5000 for nearly four
years with totally stable results. The colors are extremely close to Canon
OEM inks. If I wanted to get the colors abolutely spot on with the images
on my monitor I would calibrate my monitor and get a custom profile for the
ink/paper combination I use most often. Of course, you must also be using
software that has the ability to do color management with a custom profile.
Canon OEM inks tend, in the i960, to over emphasize red tones - not perfect
by any means!

My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing both sides of
paper, why would you offer an unsolicited, gratuitous comment on the evils
of aftermarket inks? I know that some posters on the thread did comment on
various inks, but the major difference noted was between dye and pigment
based inks. Do you feel compelled to protect us from those vicious vendors
of cheap colored water posing as inkjet inks, or are you Measekite's alter
ego???

Burt wrote:

"rjn" wrote in message news:fa7cd56b-ac15-4d48-9023-582bca9...oglegroups.com...



On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:



(snip)



For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink. -- Regards, Bob Niland



Wrong, Bob. Results with good quality refill inks are absolutely

Oh Yeah Predictably Poor


used MIS (imaging Specialists) and now Imaging Specialist inks from Precision Colors in my Canon i960 and Canon ip5000 for nearly four years with totally stable results. The colors are extremely close to Canon OEM inks.

Close if that is true is no cigar.  And look at the mess


If I wanted to get the colors abolutely spot on with the images on my monitor I would calibrate my monitor and get a custom profile for the ink/paper combination I use most often.

Paper companies do not make profiles for non OEM ink since they always have a moving target and do not know what they are


Of course, you must also be using software that has the ability to do color management with a custom profile. Canon OEM inks tend, in the i960, to over emphasize red tones - not perfect by any means!

But the best.  And remember that is 4 generations old technology


My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing both sides of paper, why would you offer an unsolicited, gratuitous comment on the evils of aftermarket inks?

Because he knows they are crap

He knows they can clog the printer unless you print a lot

He knows that they cannot produce the best results

He knows the vendors will not disclose what they are selling

He knows that the vendor can change suppliers and not tell him

He knows the consistency is not there

He knows there is an increased risk for fading

He knows the same crap is sold under different names and even the same vendor sells under different names on different webs so it is very difficult if not impossible to know what you are getting.

He knows that the vendors do not fully disclose what you are getting

He knows that spending less does not necessarily equate to saving money because the products are not the same


I know that some posters on the thread did comment on various inks, but the major difference noted was between dye and pigment based inks. Do you feel compelled to protect us from those vicious vendors of cheap colored water posing as inkjet inks, or are you Measekite's alter ego???

Based on what he knows he is not an idiot like many posters here who lie about their results.  Not everyone lies some just exaggerate while others do not have the capacity and experience to tell the difference.  Still others have very low standards.  They would think that the ford focus is a great car or drive a chevy surburban and spend $400 a month for gas telling everybody how much they save on the crap ink by going thru the mess of refilling.

Rita Berkowitz wrote:
Burt wrote:

My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing both sides
of paper, why would you offer an unsolicited, gratuitous comment on
the evils of aftermarket inks?

Well, if you know Bob like I do and as long as I've known him you would
understand.
All he understands is pushing his agenda.
He has the tendency to spout misinformation without thinking or
having any real world experience on the subject he's trying to assert
himself into. I've went many rounds with Bob over this same type of
nonsense in the eBay group. It's to the point that it is best to
ignore him
and correct him when his nonsense has the potential to cause damage to
someone's equipment.
That is correct. Crap ink has:

the propensity to clog the printer
fade the prints
and produce substandard results.

Spend all this money on a Nikon camera and great lenses plus the time to
take great photos and then use crap ink to reduce the amount you spend
to see the results.

These people who do this do not take photographs. They are snapshooters
who do not value the results.
His advice on "printing on both sides" is a perfect
example. Just treat his comments as clueless noise and a possibility
to get
a laugh from them and you will be much happier.





Rita

Arthur Entlich wrote:
Your point is actually well taken, and you are correct. Some large
format inkjet printers did and may still use heaters to dry ink. The
larger printers need to run faster, and to decrease drying time they
may use heaters. In general these heaters are relatively low
temperature compared with laser fusers, but you are correct. HP uses
some swellable polymer papers which are slow to dry, but work well
with thermal inkjet heads, and that paper does protect against fading
by integrating the inks into the polymer layer.

Third party inks may take a bit more experimentation
Of course they do
to profile correctly and in choosing paper types, but the other side
is it may open you up to many more papers via 3rd party and the
savings in both ink
No savings just spending less and getting less.
and paper can be substantial for those who wish to take the time to
figure it out.

Art


rjn wrote:
On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:

Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper.

Not quite true. Some inkjet printers have heaters to dry the ink.

I know that the hp DeskJet 1200 and 1600 had this feature, but
it's unlikely any of those are still in use. I would not be surprised
to learn that later or still-current models from one of more makers
have this feature.

Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
will necessarily give the best quality print.

"Works with all" often means "not quite satisfactory results with
all".
It could be subtext for "don't use in your laser printer" :-)

For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

--
Regards, Bob Niland
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

Arthur Entlich wrote: Hi Burt,

I know this is a sensitive area on this newsgroup, unfortunately, due to our neighborhood troll, but I think you may be "killing the messenger" in this case.

I think the reason Bob brought this matter up was probably because I made a comment in my small treatise on paper types about OEM ink and paper combinations being more reliable than mixing and matching.  In general, this is true, BTW.  Most inks and papers made or distributed under the name of the OEM will have been tested if not formulated for each other.
DUH

Is there an echo in this ng

However, that doesn't preclude that 3rd party inks and papers can't or won't work. You never know what you are buying or reordering so it is very difficult to impossible
  It is just that they take more testing to determine which work best with one another.  For the occasional printer, who wants consistent results without a lot of experimentation or wishful thinking,
using OEM will probably be a better choice,
although considerably more costly.

For people who do a lot of printing and go through a lot of consumables, it may well be worth it to experiment and test to find the best ink and paper combinations.  It can save well over 50% which can become substantial for those who churn out even a couple of prints a day.

Art


Burt wrote:
"rjn" wrote in message news:fa7cd56b-ac15-4d48-9023-582bca9...oglegroups.com...
On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:
(snip)
For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

--
Regards, Bob Niland

Wrong, Bob.  Results with good quality refill inks are absolutely predictable.  I've used MIS (imaging Specialists) and now Imaging Specialist inks from Precision Colors in my Canon i960 and Canon ip5000 for nearly four years with totally stable results.  The colors are extremely close to Canon OEM inks.  If I wanted to get the colors abolutely spot on with the images on my monitor I would calibrate my monitor and get a custom profile for the ink/paper combination I use most often.  Of course, you must also be using software that has the ability to do color management with a custom profile. Canon OEM inks tend, in the i960, to over emphasize red tones - not perfect by any means!

My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing both sides of paper, why would you offer an unsolicited, gratuitous comment on the evils of aftermarket inks?  I know that some posters on the thread did comment on various inks, but the major difference noted was between dye and pigment based inks.  Do you feel compelled to protect us from those vicious vendors of cheap colored water posing as inkjet inks, or are you Measekite's alter ego???

Burt wrote:

"rjn" wrote in message news:fa7cd56b-ac15-4d48-9023-582bca9...oglegroups.com...



On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:



(snip)



For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink. -- Regards, Bob Niland



Wrong, Bob.

He is correct


Results with good quality refill inks are absolutely predictable. I've used MIS (imaging Specialists) and now Imaging Specialist inks from Precision Colors in my Canon i960 and Canon ip5000 for nearly four years with totally stable results. The colors are extremely close to Canon OEM inks. If I wanted to get the colors abolutely spot on with the images on my monitor I would calibrate my monitor and get a custom profile for the ink/paper combination I use most often. Of course, you must also be using software that has the ability to do color management with a custom profile. Canon OEM inks tend, in the i960, to over emphasize red tones - not perfect by any means! My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing both sides of paper, why would you offer an unsolicited, gratuitous comment on the evils of aftermarket inks?

Because what he said is true.


I know that some posters on the thread did comment on various inks, but the major difference noted was between dye and pigment based inks. Do you feel compelled to protect us from those vicious vendors of cheap colored water posing as inkjet inks, or are you Measekite's alter ego???

"Burt" wrote:

My question to you is - on a thread dealing with printing
both sides of paper, why would you offer an unsolicited,
gratuitous comment on the evils of aftermarket inks?

Had I any suspicion that it would have set off a flame
fest, I wouldn't have.

But it was admittedly a gratuitous remark.

And despite the foamers and stalkers who claim
to be able to read my mind, the remark was only
intended to get inkjet newbies to investigate before
assuming that inkjet consumables are like optical
media - that anything sold "for" your printer brand
is necessarily safe to use in it, much less will provide
predictable results without testing and characterizing it.

Cheap CD-Rs may fail to store your data,
but they usually won't destroy your CD writer.
That can happen with re-fills, and when a newbie
discovers that the first replacement batch of full-
capacity ctgs costs as much as the printer, the
temptation to try a too-cheap solution is strong.

I assumed the experienced readers would recognize
that the statement was mostly tongue in cheek.
Guess not.

--
Regards, Bob Niland
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

"rjn" wrote in message
...
On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:

(snip)

For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

Regards, Bob Niland

Not so, Bob. There are some very good refill inks available online. The
color response will not be EXACTLY the same as OEM inks, but the difference
with some is negligable. If the user wants to get the most precise color
rendition you can get a custom profile for the ink/paper combination. You
would need to calibrate your monitor and use software that will provide
color management with a custom profile.

More interestingly, however, is your negative gratuitous comment about inks
in a thread having to do with inkjet printing on both sides of the paper!
Is this some sort of unsolicited public service or are you Measekite's alter
ego?