Ping Tony

Davoud:
They call these things "whole-house" generators. In fact, 20 kw will
not power our entire house, but it handles all of the essentials:
water, kitchen appliances, lighting, Verizon FIOS, cooling, and minimal
heating (electric heat pump). We turn off as many things as we can when
the genny is running; four of the six Macs, all but one laser printer,
no excess lighting. We reckon we have sufficient fuel for five days...

I'm pretty sure 500 gallons of propane @ 20 kWe will last more than 5
days. Much more if you could collect the waste heat too...

Being conservative.

However, the shame of it is the waste heat that's not captured for house
and water heating. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel no shame. The purpose is to power essentials in my home, not to
save money. With the cost of a heat exchanger, ductwork, and the like,
an attempt to recover genny waste het might not be economical.

You could vent the cooling air to the heatpump air intake, that would
dramatically improve the heat pump capture - less power used from the gen.

The cooling air is vented with the exhaust. The genny is on the
windward side of the house, behind the garage, well removed from living
quarters. No way I would vent CO toward my house. Thus I would need a
heat exchanger. Besides, power failures generally occur in the summer
and autumn.

...without replenishment, but we have only had two rely on it for a few
hours at a time to date. Still, we consider it to have been a very good
investment.

20 kW is my furnace alone, though I could disconnect 1 or 2 elements to
down rate it to 15 or 10 kW - would just run longer.

I don't have to disconnect heating elements. The genny takes care of
that, supplying power to only one of two 10 kW elements.

I don't know of any home well pumps that are 3-phase; indeed, 3-phase
is not used in the average U.S. home.

See my correction to my post. I meant to write "3 wire" as some
submerged pumps use (240 VAC).

Yes, my well pump is 3-wire 240 VAC, as are my oven and my clothes
dryer. I also have 240 VAC in my garage for my table saw.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On 2017-09-03 15:57, Davoud wrote:
Davoud:
They call these things "whole-house" generators. In fact, 20 kw will
not power our entire house, but it handles all of the essentials:
water, kitchen appliances, lighting, Verizon FIOS, cooling, and minimal
heating (electric heat pump). We turn off as many things as we can when
the genny is running; four of the six Macs, all but one laser printer,
no excess lighting. We reckon we have sufficient fuel for five days...

I'm pretty sure 500 gallons of propane @ 20 kWe will last more than 5
days. Much more if you could collect the waste heat too...

Being conservative.

However, the shame of it is the waste heat that's not captured for house
and water heating. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel no shame. The purpose is to power essentials in my home, not to

I wasn't implying you should feel shame. The solution is missing an
opportunity, however.

save money. With the cost of a heat exchanger, ductwork, and the like,
an attempt to recover genny waste het might not be economical.

If done correctly and co-located, sure. See below. I get that it's
there for emergencies, but you never know when there may be a regional
blackout that can last days or more. (The ice storm here ('98) is quite
the reminder).

You could vent the cooling air to the heatpump air intake, that would
dramatically improve the heat pump capture - less power used from the gen.

The cooling air is vented with the exhaust. The genny is on the
windward side of the house, behind the garage, well removed from living
quarters. No way I would vent CO toward my house. Thus I would need a
heat exchanger. Besides, power failures generally occur in the summer
and autumn.

A correctly tuned propane motor does not emit CO in any significant
amount - why they are used for warehouse forklifts, stoves, ovens, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propan..._and_reactions

Here a major failure is more likely in the winter. The setup I describe
would have to have the generator right next to the heat pump (outside).

And then the warmed air from the generator exhausted to the
condenser/evaporator of the external portion of the heat pump.

Yes, it's more money at installation time for the ducting, but if done
with that purpose in mind, not all that much more.

Hmm, the latent heat in the water vapour could be captured as well with
a condenser stage... but that may be gilding the lily.


...without replenishment, but we have only had two rely on it for a few
hours at a time to date. Still, we consider it to have been a very good
investment.

20 kW is my furnace alone, though I could disconnect 1 or 2 elements to
down rate it to 15 or 10 kW - would just run longer.

I don't have to disconnect heating elements. The genny takes care of
that, supplying power to only one of two 10 kW elements.

I was talking about my furnace config. Since the elements on my furnace
are [2x5] + 5 + 5, the '+' signs being delayed action relays. I suppose
an additional relay could be added that is normally closed but open when
the generator is on to prevent the two extra 5 kW's from turning on.

I don't know of any home well pumps that are 3-phase; indeed, 3-phase
is not used in the average U.S. home.

See my correction to my post. I meant to write "3 wire" as some
submerged pumps use (240 VAC).

Yes, my well pump is 3-wire 240 VAC, as are my oven and my clothes
dryer. I also have 240 VAC in my garage for my table saw.

Pretty standard. Water heater too. Kitchen counter 120 VAC's are
actually wired as 240 with the connection between the two 'hot' sides
cut out to get 2 x 120.

--
"Natural stupidity can wreak far more havoc
than artificial intelligence..."
-Alison Copnik, "Making AI More Human"
-Scientific American, June 2017.

Davoud:
They call these things "whole-house" generators. In fact, 20 kw will
not power our entire house, but it handles all of the essentials:
water, kitchen appliances, lighting, Verizon FIOS, cooling, and minimal
heating (electric heat pump). We turn off as many things as we can when
the genny is running; four of the six Macs, all but one laser printer,
no excess lighting. We reckon we have sufficient fuel for five days...

Alan Browne:
I'm pretty sure 500 gallons of propane @ 20 kWe will last more than 5
days. Much more if you could collect the waste heat too...

Being conservative.

However, the shame of it is the waste heat that's not captured for house
and water heating. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel no shame. The purpose is to power essentials in my home, not to

I wasn't implying you should feel shame. The solution is missing an
opportunity, however.

I was being facetious about the shame.

save money. With the cost of a heat exchanger, ductwork, and the like,
an attempt to recover genny waste het might not be economical.

If done correctly and co-located, sure. See below. I get that it's
there for emergencies, but you never know when there may be a regional
blackout that can last days or more. (The ice storm here ('98) is quite
the reminder).

Still. I'm not going to hire someone to completely redo my genny
installation.

You could vent the cooling air to the heatpump air intake, that would
dramatically improve the heat pump capture - less power used from the gen.

The cooling air is vented with the exhaust. The genny is on the
windward side of the house, behind the garage, well removed from living
quarters. No way I would vent CO toward my house. Thus I would need a
heat exchanger. Besides, power failures generally occur in the summer
and autumn.

A correctly tuned propane motor does not emit CO in any significant
amount - why they are used for warehouse forklifts, stoves, ovens, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propan..._and_reactions

I also don't bring mechanics in to tune my genny. Except for an annualy
oil change, it's pretty much maintenance-free.

Here a major failure is more likely in the winter.

Winter. The only reason I don't live in Canada.

The setup I describe
would have to have the generator right next to the heat pump (outside).

So now I have to move the genny. New concrete pad, new gas lines, new
wiring, ductwork, modification to the heat pump which could void its
warranty. Furthermore, that would make the genny audible from inside
the house, which it is not from its present location, except when it is
starting.

And then the warmed air from the generator exhausted to the
condenser/evaporator of the external portion of the heat pump.

Yes, it's more money at installation time for the ducting, but if done
with that purpose in mind, not all that much more.

Hmm, the latent heat in the water vapour could be captured as well with
a condenser stage... but that may be gilding the lily.

Don't need no gilded lilies. It works when we need it and that's about
all there is to say about it.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On 9/2/2017 1:06 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 16:21:31 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/...irma-now-cat3/
or http://tinyurl.com/y97s2y2u

We don't know, yet, if Irma will visit this area.

The last hurricane to affect us directly was Charley in 2004. This is
my front yard after Charley:

https://photos.smugmug.com/AUE-Temp/...8-16-04-X3.jpg

I was sitting on my screened-in porch (just barely in the frame at the
left) and watched those trees come down.

My son and grandson sitting on one of the trees:

https://photos.smugmug.com/AUE-Temp/...4-08-16-10.jpg

No damage to the house, but the bill to have the trees cut up and
taken away was considerable.

We were without power for several days after Charley. We're on a
well, so no water without power. We pulled buckets of water out of
the pool to flush the toilets.

There is no flood danger where we live. We live on a golf course, and
the open areas absorb the heavy rains. The water hazards fill up and
overflow, but the sandy soil drains well. And, our house is at the
top of a rise.

If you live in Florida, hurricanes are a fact of life.


Many years ago while I was on a business trip to FL, I was invited to a
hurricane party. The hurricane did not follow the forecast, turned to
the East, and the party was cancelled.


--
PeterN

On 2017-09-03 17:54, Davoud wrote:
Davoud:
They call these things "whole-house" generators. In fact, 20 kw will
not power our entire house, but it handles all of the essentials:
water, kitchen appliances, lighting, Verizon FIOS, cooling, and minimal
heating (electric heat pump). We turn off as many things as we can when
the genny is running; four of the six Macs, all but one laser printer,
no excess lighting. We reckon we have sufficient fuel for five days...

Alan Browne:
I'm pretty sure 500 gallons of propane @ 20 kWe will last more than 5
days. Much more if you could collect the waste heat too...

Being conservative.

However, the shame of it is the waste heat that's not captured for house
and water heating. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I feel no shame. The purpose is to power essentials in my home, not to

I wasn't implying you should feel shame. The solution is missing an
opportunity, however.

I was being facetious about the shame.

save money. With the cost of a heat exchanger, ductwork, and the like,
an attempt to recover genny waste het might not be economical.

If done correctly and co-located, sure. See below. I get that it's
there for emergencies, but you never know when there may be a regional
blackout that can last days or more. (The ice storm here ('98) is quite
the reminder).

Still. I'm not going to hire someone to completely redo my genny
installation.

You could vent the cooling air to the heatpump air intake, that would
dramatically improve the heat pump capture - less power used from the gen.

The cooling air is vented with the exhaust. The genny is on the
windward side of the house, behind the garage, well removed from living
quarters. No way I would vent CO toward my house. Thus I would need a
heat exchanger. Besides, power failures generally occur in the summer
and autumn.

A correctly tuned propane motor does not emit CO in any significant
amount - why they are used for warehouse forklifts, stoves, ovens, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propan..._and_reactions

I also don't bring mechanics in to tune my genny. Except for an annualy
oil change, it's pretty much maintenance-free.

The point was CO is not an issue.


Here a major failure is more likely in the winter.

Winter. The only reason I don't live in Canada.

The setup I describe
would have to have the generator right next to the heat pump (outside).

So now I have to move the genny. New concrete pad, new gas lines, new
wiring, ductwork, modification to the heat pump which could void its
warranty. Furthermore, that would make the genny audible from inside
the house, which it is not from its present location, except when it is
starting.

You don't have to do anything. Ideally it would be setup that way from
the start.


And then the warmed air from the generator exhausted to the
condenser/evaporator of the external portion of the heat pump.

Yes, it's more money at installation time for the ducting, but if done
with that purpose in mind, not all that much more.

Hmm, the latent heat in the water vapour could be captured as well with
a condenser stage... but that may be gilding the lily.

Don't need no gilded lilies. It works when we need it and that's about
all there is to say about it.

The notion of a newsgroup to discuss possibilities seems to weird you out.


--
"Natural stupidity can wreak far more havoc
than artificial intelligence..."
-Alison Copnik, "Making AI More Human"
-Scientific American, June 2017.

Davoud:
So now I have to move the genny. New concrete pad, new gas lines, new
wiring, ductwork, modification to the heat pump which could void its
warranty. Furthermore, that would make the genny audible from inside
the house, which it is not from its present location, except when it is
starting.

Alan Browne:
You don't have to do anything. Ideally it would be setup that way from
the start.

Ideally the power would never go off and I wouldn't need a genny. It's
not an ideal world.

Hmm, the latent heat in the water vapour could be captured as well with
a condenser stage... but that may be gilding the lily.

Don't need no gilded lilies. It works when we need it and that's about
all there is to say about it.

The notion of a newsgroup to discuss possibilities seems to weird you out.

We're not discussing possibilities. Your suggestion is not my first
awareness that this could have been done, and that it would not be
worth the time and trouble. I'm not going to tear my genny out and move
it and build ductwork and heat exchangers to recover waste heat for a
very few hours each winter (none during the last three winters). If I'm
not going to even consider that, then it's not a possibility.

What is a possibility is that I will construct a three-sided removable
barrier to shield the heat pump from cold winds during the winter
months. If I get a round tooit.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On 2017-09-03 18:41, Davoud wrote:
Davoud:
So now I have to move the genny. New concrete pad, new gas lines, new
wiring, ductwork, modification to the heat pump which could void its
warranty. Furthermore, that would make the genny audible from inside
the house, which it is not from its present location, except when it is
starting.

Alan Browne:
You don't have to do anything. Ideally it would be setup that way from
the start.

Ideally the power would never go off and I wouldn't need a genny. It's
not an ideal world.

Hmm, the latent heat in the water vapour could be captured as well with
a condenser stage... but that may be gilding the lily.

Don't need no gilded lilies. It works when we need it and that's about
all there is to say about it.

The notion of a newsgroup to discuss possibilities seems to weird you out.

We're not discussing possibilities. Your suggestion is not my first
awareness that this could have been done, and that it would not be
worth the time and trouble. I'm not going to tear my genny out and move
it and build ductwork and heat exchangers to recover waste heat for a

I never suggested you should. I was discussing what is possible. You've
gotten all defensive over it. Sheesh!


very few hours each winter (none during the last three winters). If I'm
not going to even consider that, then it's not a possibility.

What is a possibility is that I will construct a three-sided removable
barrier to shield the heat pump from cold winds during the winter
months. If I get a round tooit.

Don't.

Heat pumps work on temperature difference and air volume so what is
"wind chill" to you is "wind warming" to the heat pump.

(Hint: that's why there's a fan in there - so the outside air can heat
up the refrigerant. More air volume x delta-T = heat entering the
refrigerant).

--
"Natural stupidity can wreak far more havoc
than artificial intelligence..."
-Alison Copnik, "Making AI More Human"
-Scientific American, June 2017.

On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 16:21:31 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/...irma-now-cat3/
or http://tinyurl.com/y97s2y2u


Latest forecasts:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/...case-scenario/
or http://tinyurl.com/y7evz3gm
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2017-09-04 17:02, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 16:21:31 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/...irma-now-cat3/
or http://tinyurl.com/y97s2y2u


Latest forecasts:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/...case-scenario/
or http://tinyurl.com/y7evz3gm

That track is close to the TVCN model which is one of the most accurate
over the past 5 seasons.

UKXI which is also very accurate shows IRMA heading to the through
Hispaniola and southeast Cuba. ie: on the southern edge of the 5 day
cone. Doesn't predict after 5 days.

NOAA:
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/grap...?cone#contents

Other models have it staying at sea longer and heading to VA (your link).

Irma looks to be wanting to out-do Harvey, alas.

We had Harvey's remnants yesterday (steady rain).

--
"Natural stupidity can wreak far more havoc
than artificial intelligence..."
-Alison Copnik, "Making AI More Human"
-Scientific American, June 2017.

On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 01:06:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 16:21:31 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/...irma-now-cat3/
or http://tinyurl.com/y97s2y2u

We don't know, yet, if Irma will visit this area.

The last hurricane to affect us directly was Charley in 2004. This is
my front yard after Charley:

https://photos.smugmug.com/AUE-Temp/...8-16-04-X3.jpg

I was sitting on my screened-in porch (just barely in the frame at the
left) and watched those trees come down.

My son and grandson sitting on one of the trees:

https://photos.smugmug.com/AUE-Temp/...4-08-16-10.jpg

No damage to the house, but the bill to have the trees cut up and
taken away was considerable.

We were without power for several days after Charley. We're on a
well, so no water without power. We pulled buckets of water out of
the pool to flush the toilets.

There is no flood danger where we live. We live on a golf course, and
the open areas absorb the heavy rains. The water hazards fill up and
overflow, but the sandy soil drains well. And, our house is at the
top of a rise.

If you live in Florida, hurricanes are a fact of life.

You don't want to know this:
https://earth.nullschool.net/#curren...-61.641,17.767
or http://tinyurl.com/y8ecxhws
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens