Moscva 5--decent student camera?

"Nick Fotis" wrote in message

snip

It's a bit hard to justify buying a high-end digital SLR at these costs for
me
Now, where can I find a minilab printing 6x12 (I'm eyeing a Noblex panoramic
camera at the moment... ;-) )

snip

There has been a lot of information posted about the 120 film Noblex
models on this newsgroup (mostly by me). Note that these cameras are
not focussed to infinity but rather a shorter distance to get more in
the depth of field. Not all people like this at it gives increased
depth of field at the expense of far distance sharpness. As for the
focussing models, infinity focus setting for them is not infinity and
from what I can deduce from the information available to me, the
principles behind the focussing method of the focussing models are
unsound. However, I am not an optical designer and would be glad to be
proven wrong.

RolandRB wrote:

Lassi Hippeläinen wrote in message ...

snip

OTOH, the only Zeiss folder I've ever had went back to the seller,
because it had a light leak in its body.

Was it the Super Ikonta IV by any chance? I know these had a small
reflective metal plate in the back door that allowed light through
onto the film if the back was exposed to fairly bright light. The
purpose of it was to trigger the frame count when the door was closed,
I think. It needs to be painted matt black with a paint that won't
flake (I use black nail varnish for this sort of job) and then the
problem goes away.

It was a mundane Nettar 6x6. It didn't even have a frame counter. But a
folder felt so nice that after it I bought a Moskva 2 at the same price,
and it was a good one. It's no Zeiss, but I got a coupled rangefinder as
a bonus...

-- Lassi

Nick Fotis wrote:

Now, where can I find a minilab printing 6x12 (I'm eyeing a Noblex panoramic
camera at the moment... ;-) )

Forget it. Certainly not at a minilab.

Your options are a professional lab, a large-format (4 x 5 inch)
darkroom set-up, or an Epson 3200 or equivalent scanner and either an
inkjet printer or have the scans output on real photo paper by some
place running an Agfa e-Lab or Fuji Frontier.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated March 30, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

RolandRB wrote:
"Nick Fotis" wrote in message

snip

It's a bit hard to justify buying a high-end digital SLR at these costs for
me
Now, where can I find a minilab printing 6x12 (I'm eyeing a Noblex panoramic
camera at the moment... ;-) )

snip

There has been a lot of information posted about the 120 film Noblex
models on this newsgroup (mostly by me). Note that these cameras are
not focussed to infinity but rather a shorter distance to get more in
the depth of field. Not all people like this at it gives increased
depth of field at the expense of far distance sharpness.

I use a Noblex Pro6/150E with fixfocus lens. I have several handheld
pictures from it using a 100 ASA film with 1/250s and f-stop depending
on brightness, mostly f8-f11. So far, the negatives I have are extremely
sharp at infinity, those that aren't have no sharp point (i.e. not held
stable enough). I have an enlargement to 50cm x 1.20m hanging in my
room, you can easily see details much less then 1mm on this enlargement.

Martin

RolandRB wrote:

There has been a lot of information posted about the 120 film Noblex
models on this newsgroup (mostly by me).

Really? How come Google doesn't show any of this with the exception of
your recent assumptions in response to one of my messages in this group
and the one quoted above?

from what I can deduce from the information available to me, the
principles behind the focussing method of the focussing models
are unsound.

Just for the record: have you ever owned or used a Noblex 150? Or are
you just ad-libbing on a few remarks I made here about two weeks ago?

Why is it that each time I read one of your messages, something in the
back of my mind decides to perform the tune of "a modern major-general"?

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated March 30, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

(Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote in message ...
RolandRB wrote:

There has been a lot of information posted about the 120 film Noblex
models on this newsgroup (mostly by me).

Really? How come Google doesn't show any of this with the exception of
your recent assumptions in response to one of my messages in this group
and the one quoted above?

Check Google groups for your initial thread on "The opposite of a
close-up lens?" and you will see that I have posted detailed
calculations of the effect of moving a lens towards the film plane for
a swing lens camera. You will find two detailed posts from the 6 April
2004 and another detailed post from 7 April 2004. There is another
post from 14 April 2004 where I directed people to a very interesting
site about amateurs who built their own swing-lens camera. There is a
photo taken with this camera at the bottom of the page which can be
viewed at full size and you will see that their camera is clearly
working correctly and well. What they say on that site supports my
calculations.


from what I can deduce from the information available to me, the
principles behind the focussing method of the focussing models
are unsound.

Just for the record: have you ever owned or used a Noblex 150? Or are
you just ad-libbing on a few remarks I made here about two weeks ago?

I have one in storage at the moment. Because it is so heavy and bulky
I haven't had the chance to use it yet.

Why is it that each time I read one of your messages, something in the
back of my mind decides to perform the tune of "a modern major-general"?

Ralf

I am not qualified to make a diagnosis of your mental state. I
suggest you seek professional help.

RolandRB wrote:

I have one in storage at the moment. Because it is so heavy and bulky
I haven't had the chance to use it yet.

Oh, sure.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated March 30, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

(Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote in message ...
RolandRB wrote:

I have one in storage at the moment. Because it is so heavy and bulky
I haven't had the chance to use it yet.

Oh, sure.

Ralf

You don't believe me? I bought one last century. Do a search on
"Roland and Noblex".

I have not used the Noblex yet. I am aware that it is not focussed at
infinity and I will do the calculations sometime to work out what
effective resolution I can get at infinity distance. I don't want to
take it on a serious shoot with me if it is incapable of doing the
job. If I find a firm that is capable of doing a sensible conversion
then I would be interested in getting it changed to focus at infinity
(with the secondary principle point still on the axis, I would
stress).

I have the Horizon 202, the Horizont and the Widelux F8 as well and
have used those last three. The Horizont has only had a test roll
through it. I will have to strip it down and fix the clutch. I got
more into the physics of these cameras after I was very disappointed
with the results of my Widelux F8 that I took on a tour of Europe.
Even when stopped down at the smallest aperture the far distance
(which was what I was most interested in) was not in sufficiently
sharp focus for me. I took it into Lee's of Holborn and they explained
this business about magnification and how, because of this, they could
not do any work on the camera to set the lens fuurther back. I now
note that the manufacturers of the Noblex have focussing models but
from the information available to me and my understanding of the
situation they are focussing by moving the secondary pprinciple point
away from the axis and to me this is totally wrong. If you look at
that web site where some amateurs made a swing lens camera then they
mention how important it is to make sure this secondary principal
point has to stay on the axis. They say it might take a week to adjust
it in.

But don't let me put you off buying one of these expensive focussing
Noblex 150 models. If you get one then please report back on this
newsgroup, your findings of the horizontal resolution you are
achieving at the various focus settings.

Roland

RolandRB wrote:

I have not used the Noblex yet. I am aware that it is not focussed at
infinity and I will do the calculations sometime to work out what
effective resolution I can get at infinity distance. I don't want to
take it on a serious shoot with me if it is incapable of doing the
job. If I find a firm that is capable of doing a sensible conversion
then I would be interested in getting it changed to focus at infinity
(with the secondary principle point still on the axis, I would
stress).

It would be _much_ easier to put the camera on a tripod, expose a film and
examine the results. Anything else is pure BS. After all, a Noblex is
a rather specialized and not really cheap camera and, believe me,
is used without modification by lots of professionals with really
high quality demands. The fixfocus Noblex model is more than sharp
enough at infinity, even wide open. I have more then enough pictures
made with it to prove this, get your own camera and try it out instead
of spouting theoretical BS.

Martin

RolandRB wrote:

There has been a lot of information posted about the 120 film Noblex
models on this newsgroup (mostly by me). Note that these cameras are
not focussed to infinity but rather a shorter distance to get more in

I've read that "back-focus" thread, I still wonder if this is the case.
Oh well, if I win a Noblex at Ebay and test it I'll tell you the
results.
But I'm sure it'll be much better than a Horizon 205PC I tried, which
was horribly unreliable (and 2000 Euros!) for my tastes...

Regards from Athens,
N.Fotis
PS. I think we drifted reeeeeallly off topic now... :-)