Flaw in T. Phillips "Digital is not photography" argument

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 10/16/2004 4:46 PM Donald Qualls spake thus:

Let's try this one: can your former employers, specializing in data
format conversion, read a Coleco Adam data tape? Hint: if you find
one, it'll look exactly like an obsolete audio cassette -- because it
is. But if you play it in an audio player, you'll get only a very
loud, very raucous blaring noise; most computer users today wouldn't
even recognize it as a data encoding signal (it doesn't sound at all
like modem or fax tones). Or how about the same storage media written
by a Commodore Pet? Both were fairly popular hobbyist computers in
their day (around 25+ years ago), and both had at least a small
business presence.


Well, for that matter, how about the original cassette BASIC storage
system for the first IBM PC? (I remember using those on school.) But
anyhow, the answer is "yes": someone could be found out there who has
the hardware & software to read these.



"Out there" -- as in where "the truth" is?? Yes, there probably is
someone, somewhere, with a working Adam, or Pet, or original 64k PC, or
even Tandy Pocket Computer. OTOH, my experience was that those tapes
didn't always read back even ten minutes after they were written -- yep,
I know, that's media deterioration, not format obsolescence. I didn't,
however, ask about "someone" "out there" -- I asked about a specific
format conversion service. Or do you think, when someone's grandkids
find a CD-R in the attic, they'll be able to find "someone" "out there"
who still has an antique system with drivers and compatible hardware to
read media that hasn't been made in 30 years? Hell, I remember handling
8" floppies and seeing the drives for them on sale (as salvage, but
still working) after I owned my first DOS machine, but I'd have to place
an ad to find a place that can read one now. And I might not find one
close enough to drive to, now that I'm in small-town North Carolina
instead of Tech City, aka Seattle.

If I have that much trouble with a medium that's less than 20 years
obsolete, what'll it be like when those disks are 50 or 100 years old?
Even if the magnetic domains in the coating haven't randomized -- analog
video recordings from 50 years ago are still playable, if you can find a
machine that can play them, so I suppose it's possible -- will anyone,
anywhere, have a working 8" drive, with the hardware interface and
software drivers to read it? And will that drive handle the dozen or so
incompatible formats that were in use as of 1982 or so? Heck, how did
your data conversion service handle 8" disks? Hard sector or soft, how
many sectors, single or double side, single or double density -- unlike
the later, smaller disk standards, there was never one drive that could
read all of them. Did they somehow keep at least one drive working for
each of those formats? And a computer that could talk to all those
drives? Even if they did, how many years can that continue?
Electronics eventually fail -- they have to, it's a quantum effect of
current flow in semiconductors -- and when they do, where will you find
replacements for the chips?

And still, even if it's technically feasible to read those formats,
who'll really bother?

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Leaving aside any of the philosophical and semantic aspects of his argument,
there's one glaring error in it. He asserts that because digital formats
change (which is true) that digital images made now will become unreadable in
the future.

Now, if one is discussing images made on physical media (film), there *is* the
distinct possibility that the image will be rendered unusable through time
because of physical degradation of the image. (Witness movies on nitrate stock
and color negatives or slides with unstable dyes.)

The difference is if silver images on film or other substrates
are properly stored, they _will_ last indefinitely and the only
technology required to "read" them is the human eye. Which,
BTW, is not a technology subject to the whims and changes of the
marketplace or manufacturing.

Quite a significant difference and one you completely ignore.
That's the "flaw" in your reasoning. There is no flaw in my
reasoning since the marketplace bears it out.

And in the case of digital media, there is always the possibility that the
image will become unreadable because of *physical* degradation of the media
(tape, magnetic disc, optical disc, etc.)

Not a possibility. An inevitability. These media _will_ degrade
no matter how they are stored and cannot be preserved indefinitely
in and of themselves. Go, ask 3M, Verbatim, and other manufacturers
of such digital media (I have...)

However, assuming that the *physical media* remains intact, it is very, very
unlikely that any digitally-recorded image will ever become unreadable in the
future.

I do know something about this, having worked for a computer media conversion
and duplication company for 13 years. In that one small company alone, there
exists the ability to read many obsolete digital formats (meaning both the
equuipment and the software to decipher the data and deliver it in a usable
form): specifically, 9-track tape (remember the old movies with the computers
with the spinning tape drives?) and floppy disks, including the old 8" monsters.

For the _average_ person the inability to read data on
outmoded media due to the constant changes in drive
technology is a fact. If you'd read these various threads
I've already answered this and provided examples. For
instance, I have a music collection on cassette tape.
But due to changes in the market and technology
manufacturers have stopped making cassette tape decks,
and CD players sure can't read my tapes...

As a digital analogy, well sure if I take them to a specialized
service bureau I could have my tapes read and even transferred
to CD. But like data recovery, this is an outrageously
expensive service for the average person whio is just going
to dump the tapes and buy into CD and CD players. What we're
talking about here is the common consumer, phototgrapher,
snapshootist, etc. Not museums or government agencies that
have unlimited resources to maintain old data and old technology.
For the average person, such services or transfers are generally
cost prohibitive.

And digital data maintenance and upkeep is expensive also. I
have a CD recorder I paid several hundred dollars for some
years ago. It's now useless since it can't read and write to
the newer CD-R media being made. The manufacturers don't care
about my old data, or making it so things are backwrds
compatible; their goal is to get consumers to buy NEW products
and keep their profits high. That's how the market works and
you know it as well as everyone else. Likely my outmoded CD-R
storage discs will also not be able to be read by new drives
in the near furture. You're argument simply isn't borne out by
the realities of the marketplace. You're talking about what's
technically possible. I'm talking about what's practical and
real.


I'm confident that even data on paper tape could be read; someone, somewhere,
has a paper-tape reader connected to his S-100 system (running CP/M), or some
other moldy oldie. And if not, a reader could pretty easily be cobbled together.

The point is that humanity doesn't collectively forget its own obsolete
recording formats,

Just try to find a store where you can buy new music on cassette
tape :-) Or Vynal, or... I went to buy Bob Dylan's Essentials
album recently. Only available on CD. Even an oldie like Zimmerman
recognizes the changing market place (if he wants to sell albums...)

just because something new comes along. Sure, the old
formats fall into disuse and become difficult to use, but not impossible. The
knowledge of how to read and decipher all these old devices and formats still
exists, somewhere.

Why, in this very house, I can right now play 78 rpm records if I like, or 45s
even. I can also read all of my old 5-1/4" floppies on my computer.

I'd like someone to try to name a data storage format (either physical medium
or data format) that they think cannot be read today.

You're in fact using outmoded storage media on your own
outmoded drives and technology. The reality is, the more
time goes by the less viable that will be. You can't go
out and buy 78rpms anymore, nor soon the turntables to play
them. They're already a specialty item dinosaur and you know
it. I have a early 1950's television set. Vacuum tubes.
Can't get cable on it, and very very soon I won't even be
able to pick up local broadcast stations and the industry
doesn't care and isn't going to support such old technology.
Tough luck, buy new. It's dead technology and the more
time passses the deader and more useless it gets.

Again, that's how the market works and digital is no exception.
But with images on film technology isn't an issue. Even if
you're half blind all you'll need is a magnifying glass.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Leaving aside any of the philosophical and semantic aspects of his argument,
there's one glaring error in it. He asserts that because digital formats
change (which is true) that digital images made now will become unreadable in
the future.

Now, if one is discussing images made on physical media (film), there *is* the
distinct possibility that the image will be rendered unusable through time
because of physical degradation of the image. (Witness movies on nitrate stock
and color negatives or slides with unstable dyes.)

The difference is if silver images on film or other substrates
are properly stored, they _will_ last indefinitely and the only
technology required to "read" them is the human eye. Which,
BTW, is not a technology subject to the whims and changes of the
marketplace or manufacturing.

Quite a significant difference and one you completely ignore.
That's the "flaw" in your reasoning. There is no flaw in my
reasoning since the marketplace bears it out.

And in the case of digital media, there is always the possibility that the
image will become unreadable because of *physical* degradation of the media
(tape, magnetic disc, optical disc, etc.)

Not a possibility. An inevitability. These media _will_ degrade
no matter how they are stored and cannot be preserved indefinitely
in and of themselves. Go, ask 3M, Verbatim, and other manufacturers
of such digital media (I have...)

However, assuming that the *physical media* remains intact, it is very, very
unlikely that any digitally-recorded image will ever become unreadable in the
future.

I do know something about this, having worked for a computer media conversion
and duplication company for 13 years. In that one small company alone, there
exists the ability to read many obsolete digital formats (meaning both the
equuipment and the software to decipher the data and deliver it in a usable
form): specifically, 9-track tape (remember the old movies with the computers
with the spinning tape drives?) and floppy disks, including the old 8" monsters.

For the _average_ person the inability to read data on
outmoded media due to the constant changes in drive
technology is a fact. If you'd read these various threads
I've already answered this and provided examples. For
instance, I have a music collection on cassette tape.
But due to changes in the market and technology
manufacturers have stopped making cassette tape decks,
and CD players sure can't read my tapes...

As a digital analogy, well sure if I take them to a specialized
service bureau I could have my tapes read and even transferred
to CD. But like data recovery, this is an outrageously
expensive service for the average person whio is just going
to dump the tapes and buy into CD and CD players. What we're
talking about here is the common consumer, phototgrapher,
snapshootist, etc. Not museums or government agencies that
have unlimited resources to maintain old data and old technology.
For the average person, such services or transfers are generally
cost prohibitive.

And digital data maintenance and upkeep is expensive also. I
have a CD recorder I paid several hundred dollars for some
years ago. It's now useless since it can't read and write to
the newer CD-R media being made. The manufacturers don't care
about my old data, or making it so things are backwrds
compatible; their goal is to get consumers to buy NEW products
and keep their profits high. That's how the market works and
you know it as well as everyone else. Likely my outmoded CD-R
storage discs will also not be able to be read by new drives
in the near furture. You're argument simply isn't borne out by
the realities of the marketplace. You're talking about what's
technically possible. I'm talking about what's practical and
real.


I'm confident that even data on paper tape could be read; someone, somewhere,
has a paper-tape reader connected to his S-100 system (running CP/M), or some
other moldy oldie. And if not, a reader could pretty easily be cobbled together.

The point is that humanity doesn't collectively forget its own obsolete
recording formats,

Just try to find a store where you can buy new music on cassette
tape :-) Or Vynal, or... I went to buy Bob Dylan's Essentials
album recently. Only available on CD. Even an oldie like Zimmerman
recognizes the changing market place (if he wants to sell albums...)

just because something new comes along. Sure, the old
formats fall into disuse and become difficult to use, but not impossible. The
knowledge of how to read and decipher all these old devices and formats still
exists, somewhere.

Why, in this very house, I can right now play 78 rpm records if I like, or 45s
even. I can also read all of my old 5-1/4" floppies on my computer.

I'd like someone to try to name a data storage format (either physical medium
or data format) that they think cannot be read today.

You're in fact using outmoded storage media on your own
outmoded drives and technology. The reality is, the more
time goes by the less viable that will be. You can't go
out and buy 78rpms anymore, nor soon the turntables to play
them. They're already a specialty item dinosaur and you know
it. I have a early 1950's television set. Vacuum tubes.
Can't get cable on it, and very very soon I won't even be
able to pick up local broadcast stations and the industry
doesn't care and isn't going to support such old technology.
Tough luck, buy new. It's dead technology and the more
time passses the deader and more useless it gets.

Again, that's how the market works and digital is no exception.
But with images on film technology isn't an issue. Even if
you're half blind all you'll need is a magnifying glass.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
...

The ability to read magnetically or optically recorded media will slowly
deteriorate and become extinct over time. It will happen and there is
nothing to be done about this problem. The data contained on those media
will need to be copied to state of the art systems in order to maintain
archiving. This is one way that data created today will be available to
future generations.

To say the devices will exist to transfer these media to state of the art
systems in 100 years is flawed. 7 track, 9 track, punch card/tape
technology, flexible floppy disk (8", 5 1/4", etc) has only been 'out of
service' for a few years. We were still using 7 track tape system and level
7 punch tape in the military up to 5 years ago. Do you think for one minute
those drives will be working and able to read data from tapes in another 95
years? I sincerely doubt it. There are too many likelihoods of mechanical
and electronic failure without replacement part. Electrolytic capacitors
dry out and blow up. Metals oxidize. Plastics dry out and become brittle
and break. And so on. What about the servicing technicians. No one will
be there that fully understands the technology. It happens every day today.
Just try to find someone to troubleshoot old 2400 baud, RS-232 system and
your technician is in his last weeks before retirement.

The only way to avoid the inability to read data in 100 years is in
paragraph 1 of this post. Now, all those photos taken by Mr. and Mrs.
Average are not going to be cheaply recoverable to their great grandkids.
Sorry, not going to happen.

Jim

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
...

The ability to read magnetically or optically recorded media will slowly
deteriorate and become extinct over time. It will happen and there is
nothing to be done about this problem. The data contained on those media
will need to be copied to state of the art systems in order to maintain
archiving. This is one way that data created today will be available to
future generations.

To say the devices will exist to transfer these media to state of the art
systems in 100 years is flawed. 7 track, 9 track, punch card/tape
technology, flexible floppy disk (8", 5 1/4", etc) has only been 'out of
service' for a few years. We were still using 7 track tape system and level
7 punch tape in the military up to 5 years ago. Do you think for one minute
those drives will be working and able to read data from tapes in another 95
years? I sincerely doubt it. There are too many likelihoods of mechanical
and electronic failure without replacement part. Electrolytic capacitors
dry out and blow up. Metals oxidize. Plastics dry out and become brittle
and break. And so on. What about the servicing technicians. No one will
be there that fully understands the technology. It happens every day today.
Just try to find someone to troubleshoot old 2400 baud, RS-232 system and
your technician is in his last weeks before retirement.

The only way to avoid the inability to read data in 100 years is in
paragraph 1 of this post. Now, all those photos taken by Mr. and Mrs.
Average are not going to be cheaply recoverable to their great grandkids.
Sorry, not going to happen.

Jim

Tom Phillips wrote in message ...
David Nebenzahl wrote:

Leaving aside any of the philosophical and semantic aspects of his argument,
there's one glaring error in it. He asserts that because digital formats
change (which is true) that digital images made now will become unreadable in
the future.

Now, if one is discussing images made on physical media (film), there *is* the
distinct possibility that the image will be rendered unusable through time
because of physical degradation of the image. (Witness movies on nitrate stock
and color negatives or slides with unstable dyes.)

The difference is if silver images on film or other substrates
are properly stored, they _will_ last indefinitely and the only
technology required to "read" them is the human eye.

You can read undeveloped film? Undeveloped film is exactly analogous
to stored data. It requires some 'processing' and 'printing' to be
usable by human beings.

Tom Phillips wrote in message ...
David Nebenzahl wrote:

Leaving aside any of the philosophical and semantic aspects of his argument,
there's one glaring error in it. He asserts that because digital formats
change (which is true) that digital images made now will become unreadable in
the future.

Now, if one is discussing images made on physical media (film), there *is* the
distinct possibility that the image will be rendered unusable through time
because of physical degradation of the image. (Witness movies on nitrate stock
and color negatives or slides with unstable dyes.)

The difference is if silver images on film or other substrates
are properly stored, they _will_ last indefinitely and the only
technology required to "read" them is the human eye.

You can read undeveloped film? Undeveloped film is exactly analogous
to stored data. It requires some 'processing' and 'printing' to be
usable by human beings.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
...
Leaving aside any of the philosophical and semantic aspects of his
argument,
there's one glaring error in it. He asserts that because digital formats
change (which is true) that digital images made now will become unreadable
in
the future.

Now, if one is discussing images made on physical media (film), there *is*
the
distinct possibility that the image will be rendered unusable through time
because of physical degradation of the image. (Witness movies on nitrate
stock
and color negatives or slides with unstable dyes.)

And in the case of digital media, there is always the possibility that the
image will become unreadable because of *physical* degradation of the
media
(tape, magnetic disc, optical disc, etc.)

However, assuming that the *physical media* remains intact, it is very,
very
unlikely that any digitally-recorded image will ever become unreadable in
the
future.
Lets stop talking 10,20 years etc, and think 2000 years. How many relics
have archeologists uncovered, that are completely and utterly confusing. The
statues at Easter Island for example - for all we know they may have encoded
into them the photographs of a now extinct race.

Now lets say that we have a pompei-like event and my b&w negs, prints,
slides, and CDR's are all buried and sealed, and forgotten about for a
couple of millenia. Then in 4000AD some archeologists digs up my house and
finds these black and white negatives - they will probably have decayed
somewhat, but I'd hazard a guess that there will still be some elements of
the photograph that will be viewable. My prints and slides will have
probably faded a bit worse, so I'm not sure whether there will be a viewable
image on them, but I suspect there probably will be at least a faint faded
image. Then the archeologist will encounter these funny round plastic discs
that have a bit of writing on one side and a bluish reflective surface on
the other. Will the archeologist be able to work out that there are millions
of minute variations in the reflective surface that contain binary
representations of compressed picture information. If he works out that
there are variations in the reflective surface, will he be able to read the
1's and 0's. If he reads the 1's and 0's will he be able to reconstruct the
file system to locate the particular files. If he reconstructs the file
system will he be able to decode the .JPG files to create usable pictures?
Assuming that the digital version has remained 100% intact and that the film
decays, the film will still have more usable information, because it only
has to be looked at to see the image - sure the image won't be perfect, but
it will be viewable.

I do know something about this, having worked for a computer media
conversion
and duplication company for 13 years. In that one small company alone,
there
exists the ability to read many obsolete digital formats (meaning both the
equuipment and the software to decipher the data and deliver it in a
usable
form): specifically, 9-track tape (remember the old movies with the
computers
with the spinning tape drives?) and floppy disks, including the old 8"
monsters.

I'm confident that even data on paper tape could be read; someone,
somewhere,
has a paper-tape reader connected to his S-100 system (running CP/M), or
some
other moldy oldie. And if not, a reader could pretty easily be cobbled
together.
A paper-tape reader would be relatively easy to construct, but probably
still out of the realm of the average joe who finds a bunch of paper tape in
his grandfather's attic. He will however be able to view his grandfather's
slides just by looking at them. Reading the data off old tape reels or old
hard drive canisters would be significantly harder than reading paper tape,
and does rely on being able to find someone who has the appropriate
equipment. As time goes on, that equipment becomes more and more scarce. And
even if you can access the raw digital data, you then need to be able to
determine the format it was stored in to be able to reconstruct that data
into usable form.

The point is that humanity doesn't collectively forget its own obsolete
recording formats, just because something new comes along. Sure, the old
formats fall into disuse and become difficult to use, but not impossible.
The knowledge of how to read and decipher all these old devices and
formats still exists, somewhere.

Why, in this very house, I can right now play 78 rpm records if I like, or
45s
even. I can also read all of my old 5-1/4" floppies on my computer.

I'd like someone to try to name a data storage format (either physical
medium
or data format) that they think cannot be read today.


--
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a
really easy way: stop participating in it.

- Noam Chomsky