Sodium or Ammonium, Ilford's 5-10-5 Wash Stands.

There are two PDFs concerned with Ilford Rapid Fix; a March and
an August 2002. One says 5-10-20 minutes and the other 5-10-5.
All of their paper PDFs mention the 5-10-5 sequence.

Interestingly the Ilfofix PDF also recommends the 5-10-5. Ilfofix,
is Ilford's old fashioned slow Hypo. Where 1 will do for Rapid,
3 minutes are needed for slow.

The capacity of the two Ilford fixers, sodium and ammonium are the
same. That is in accord with an observation made by Dr. Gudzinowicz.
The two having the same capacity also agrees with my studies.

Many shrug this off; Ilford recommends only their own brand of
HCA. Ilford's post fix wash routines are a 60 minute wash or
the 5 minute wash, 10 minute their brand of HCA, 5 minute
wash.

Ilford did say that for longest print life no more than 10
8x10s/liter. IIRC, the only way now to 40 8x10s is a two-bath.
May be their brand HCA ain't all that good after all. Dan

Dan Quinn wrote:

There are two PDFs concerned with Ilford Rapid Fix; a March and
an August 2002. One says 5-10-20 minutes and the other 5-10-5.
All of their paper PDFs mention the 5-10-5 sequence.

So, what's your point? I know the short fix works...

Interestingly the Ilfofix PDF also recommends the 5-10-5. Ilfofix,
is Ilford's old fashioned slow Hypo. Where 1 will do for Rapid,
3 minutes are needed for slow.

The capacity of the two Ilford fixers, sodium and ammonium are the
same. That is in accord with an observation made by Dr. Gudzinowicz.
The two having the same capacity also agrees with my studies.

Many shrug this off; Ilford recommends only their own brand of
HCA.

Kodak says the same (scare tactics) about KHCA. Frankly,
I think Hypo Clear is Hypo Clear...

Ilford's post fix wash routines are a 60 minute wash or
the 5 minute wash, 10 minute their brand of HCA, 5 minute
wash.

Ilford did say that for longest print life no more than 10
8x10s/liter. IIRC, the only way now to 40 8x10s is a two-bath.
May be their brand HCA ain't all that good after all. Dan

Tom Phillips wrote

Dan Quinn wrote:

There are two PDFs concerned with Ilford Rapid Fix; a March and
an August 2002. One says 5-10-20 minutes and the other 5-10-5.
All of their paper PDFs mention the 5-10-5 sequence.

So, what's your point? I know the short fix works...


AND, it is because the Ilford Film strength ONE minute
fix works that the 5, 10, 5 minute Archival Wash Sequence works.
By contrast, often recommended is a two-bath fix for Archival
results. Two-bath is an old and current standard for long fixer
and print life.
If Ilford had changed to a 5-10-20 wash sequence as well as
dropping the 40 8x10s/liter to 10 8x10s/liter, then they would
have dropped their archival sequence completely.
From my reading the one minute single bath 5-10-5 routine is
now good for only 10 8x10s/liter. The 5-10-5 routine can still be
used and as I pointed out, it can be used with the slower
sodium thiosulfate fix, Ilfofix.


Interestingly the Ilfofix PDF also recommends the 5-10-5. Ilfofix,
is Ilford's old fashioned slow Hypo. Where 1 will do for Rapid,
3 minutes are needed for slow.

The capacity of the two Ilford fixers, sodium and ammonium are the
same. That is in accord with an observation made by Dr. Gudzinowicz.
The two having the same capacity also agrees with my studies.

Many shrug this off; Ilford recommends only their own brand of
HCA.

Kodak says the same (scare tactics) about KHCA. Frankly,
I think Hypo Clear is Hypo Clear...


Personally I think HCAs can vary quite a bit. Edwal's 4 in 1
is noteable. Dan


Ilford's post fix wash routines are a 60 minute wash or
the 5 minute wash, 10 minute their brand of HCA, 5 minute
wash.

Ilford did say that for longest print life no more than 10
8x10s/liter. IIRC, the only way now to 40 8x10s is a two-bath.
May be their brand HCA ain't all that good after all. Dan

Dan Quinn wrote:

Tom Phillips wrote

Dan Quinn wrote:

There are two PDFs concerned with Ilford Rapid Fix; a March and
an August 2002. One says 5-10-20 minutes and the other 5-10-5.
All of their paper PDFs mention the 5-10-5 sequence.

So, what's your point? I know the short fix works...


AND, it is because the Ilford Film strength ONE minute
fix works that the 5, 10, 5 minute Archival Wash Sequence works.
By contrast, often recommended is a two-bath fix for Archival
results. Two-bath is an old and current standard for long fixer
and print life.
If Ilford had changed to a 5-10-20 wash sequence as well as
dropping the 40 8x10s/liter to 10 8x10s/liter, then they would
have dropped their archival sequence completely.
From my reading the one minute single bath 5-10-5 routine is
now good for only 10 8x10s/liter. The 5-10-5 routine can still be
used and as I pointed out, it can be used with the slower
sodium thiosulfate fix, Ilfofix.

I wouldn't think the sodium thio is useful for archival,
since it's the rapid fix that makes the short fix viable
as well as the dilution.

I have always used a single bath one minute fix (rapid.)
I never count the number prints. Instead I simply monitor the
fixer efficaciousness.


Interestingly the Ilfofix PDF also recommends the 5-10-5. Ilfofix,
is Ilford's old fashioned slow Hypo. Where 1 will do for Rapid,
3 minutes are needed for slow.

The capacity of the two Ilford fixers, sodium and ammonium are the
same. That is in accord with an observation made by Dr. Gudzinowicz.
The two having the same capacity also agrees with my studies.

Many shrug this off; Ilford recommends only their own brand of
HCA.

Kodak says the same (scare tactics) about KHCA. Frankly,
I think Hypo Clear is Hypo Clear...


Personally I think HCAs can vary quite a bit. Edwal's 4 in 1
is noteable. Dan

Sodium sulfite is the major active ingredient in all AFAIK.

Ilford's post fix wash routines are a 60 minute wash or
the 5 minute wash, 10 minute their brand of HCA, 5 minute
wash.

Ilford did say that for longest print life no more than 10
8x10s/liter. IIRC, the only way now to 40 8x10s is a two-bath.
May be their brand HCA ain't all that good after all. Dan

Dan Quinn wrote:

Tom Phillips wrote

Dan Quinn wrote:

There are two PDFs concerned with Ilford Rapid Fix; a March and
an August 2002. One says 5-10-20 minutes and the other 5-10-5.
All of their paper PDFs mention the 5-10-5 sequence.

So, what's your point? I know the short fix works...


AND, it is because the Ilford Film strength ONE minute
fix works that the 5, 10, 5 minute Archival Wash Sequence works.
By contrast, often recommended is a two-bath fix for Archival
results. Two-bath is an old and current standard for long fixer
and print life.
If Ilford had changed to a 5-10-20 wash sequence as well as
dropping the 40 8x10s/liter to 10 8x10s/liter, then they would
have dropped their archival sequence completely.
From my reading the one minute single bath 5-10-5 routine is
now good for only 10 8x10s/liter. The 5-10-5 routine can still be
used and as I pointed out, it can be used with the slower
sodium thiosulfate fix, Ilfofix.

I wouldn't think the sodium thio is useful for archival,
since it's the rapid fix that makes the short fix viable
as well as the dilution.

I have always used a single bath one minute fix (rapid.)
I never count the number prints. Instead I simply monitor the
fixer efficaciousness.


Interestingly the Ilfofix PDF also recommends the 5-10-5. Ilfofix,
is Ilford's old fashioned slow Hypo. Where 1 will do for Rapid,
3 minutes are needed for slow.

The capacity of the two Ilford fixers, sodium and ammonium are the
same. That is in accord with an observation made by Dr. Gudzinowicz.
The two having the same capacity also agrees with my studies.

Many shrug this off; Ilford recommends only their own brand of
HCA.

Kodak says the same (scare tactics) about KHCA. Frankly,
I think Hypo Clear is Hypo Clear...


Personally I think HCAs can vary quite a bit. Edwal's 4 in 1
is noteable. Dan

Sodium sulfite is the major active ingredient in all AFAIK.

Ilford's post fix wash routines are a 60 minute wash or
the 5 minute wash, 10 minute their brand of HCA, 5 minute
wash.

Ilford did say that for longest print life no more than 10
8x10s/liter. IIRC, the only way now to 40 8x10s is a two-bath.
May be their brand HCA ain't all that good after all. Dan

Tom Phillips wrote in message k

I wouldn't think the sodium thio is useful for archival,
since it's the rapid fix that makes the short fix viable
as well as the dilution.


Well, S. Thio. is every bit as good for archival as A. Thio.
But as you say it just does not fit ILFORD's quick fix for the
shortest post fix wash routine. The WHOLE thing with Ilford and
the one minute film strength rapid fix is the short 5, 10, 5
minute wash sequence for archival results.
I maybe should not say it but I consider Ilford's one minute
fix, 5, 10, 5 post fix wash routine a procedural gimmick. It does
work though. It's a quick fix for minimul fix uptake and a 20
minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.


I have always used a single bath one minute fix (rapid.)
I never count the number prints. Instead I simply monitor the
fixer efficaciousness.


Monitoring I think is best. Do you use the iodide test?


Personally I think HCAs can vary quite a bit. Edwal's 4 in 1
is noteable. Dan

Sodium sulfite is the major active ingredient in all AFAIK.


I don't know if Agfa markets a HCA but they do recommend
sodium carbonate. IIRC Edwal's may not have any sulfite. Also
ph and concentration can vary. Dan

.............It's a quick fix for minimul fix uptake and a 20
minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.

Well that's right. But rapid fix fixes faster and so
allows for a shorter fix time. Not sure what you mean
by a gimmick, unless you refer to Ilford's specific times
which make no sense to me either. For example, it makes
little sense to have a "5 minute" wash before HCA since
the whole point of HCA is to aid in the washing. A simple
1 minute rinse would do. But the overall goal, which is not
a gimmick, is to achieve archival limits in as short a wash
time as possible. Using rapid fix is more efficacious in
that regard.

Dan Quinn wrote:

Tom Phillips wrote in message k

I wouldn't think the sodium thio is useful for archival,
since it's the rapid fix that makes the short fix viable
as well as the dilution.


Well, S. Thio. is every bit as good for archival as A. Thio.
But as you say it just does not fit ILFORD's quick fix for the
shortest post fix wash routine. The WHOLE thing with Ilford and
the one minute film strength rapid fix is the short 5, 10, 5
minute wash sequence for archival results.
I maybe should not say it but I consider Ilford's one minute
fix, 5, 10, 5 post fix wash routine a procedural gimmick. It does
work though. It's a quick fix for minimul fix uptake and a 20
minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.


I have always used a single bath one minute fix (rapid.)
I never count the number prints. Instead I simply monitor the
fixer efficaciousness.


Monitoring I think is best. Do you use the iodide test?


Personally I think HCAs can vary quite a bit. Edwal's 4 in 1
is noteable. Dan

Sodium sulfite is the major active ingredient in all AFAIK.


I don't know if Agfa markets a HCA but they do recommend
sodium carbonate. IIRC Edwal's may not have any sulfite. Also
ph and concentration can vary. Dan

Tom Phillips wrote

.............It's a quick fix for minimal fix uptake and
a 20 minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.

Well that's right. But rapid fix fixes faster and so
allows for a shorter fix time. Not sure what you mean
by a gimmick, unless you refer to Ilford's specific times
which make no sense to me either. For example, it makes
little sense to have a "5 minute" wash before HCA since
the whole point of HCA is to aid in the washing. A simple
1 minute rinse would do. But the overall goal, which is not
a gimmick, is to achieve archival limits in as short a wash
time as possible. Using rapid fix is more efficacious in
that regard.


I suppose that's it; a procedural gimmick, those specific
times, 5, 10, 5 minutes; wash, hca, wash. A fix as short as
will do a complete job is the usuall recommendation. Does
any one actually follow that still current Ilford
Archival sequence?
Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the Vortex has
said this; "...the entire sequence is probably best done in
trays..."
I use fixer very dilute; A. Thio. 1:31 one-shot. It has no
build up of halide or silver at start. As fixation ends the
fixer nears exhaustion.
One other related matter; "...the overall goal,...is to
achieve archival limits in as short a wash time as possible".
And I think "...using the least water." That from Mr. Reed.
I think shortest this and shortest that tend to be labor
intensive. I think it was Mr. Miniter who washed clean a
print taken from a highly alkaline fix in ten minutes
of CONSTANT agitation. Dan

Tom Phillips wrote

.............It's a quick fix for minimal fix uptake and
a 20 minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.

Well that's right. But rapid fix fixes faster and so
allows for a shorter fix time. Not sure what you mean
by a gimmick, unless you refer to Ilford's specific times
which make no sense to me either. For example, it makes
little sense to have a "5 minute" wash before HCA since
the whole point of HCA is to aid in the washing. A simple
1 minute rinse would do. But the overall goal, which is not
a gimmick, is to achieve archival limits in as short a wash
time as possible. Using rapid fix is more efficacious in
that regard.


I suppose that's it; a procedural gimmick, those specific
times, 5, 10, 5 minutes; wash, hca, wash. A fix as short as
will do a complete job is the usuall recommendation. Does
any one actually follow that still current Ilford
Archival sequence?
Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the Vortex has
said this; "...the entire sequence is probably best done in
trays..."
I use fixer very dilute; A. Thio. 1:31 one-shot. It has no
build up of halide or silver at start. As fixation ends the
fixer nears exhaustion.
One other related matter; "...the overall goal,...is to
achieve archival limits in as short a wash time as possible".
And I think "...using the least water." That from Mr. Reed.
I think shortest this and shortest that tend to be labor
intensive. I think it was Mr. Miniter who washed clean a
print taken from a highly alkaline fix in ten minutes
of CONSTANT agitation. Dan

Tom Phillips wrote

.............It's a quick fix for minimal fix uptake and
a 20 minute total wash that the quick fix makes possible.

Well that's right. But rapid fix fixes faster and so
allows for a shorter fix time. Not sure what you mean
by a gimmick, unless you refer to Ilford's specific times
which make no sense to me either. For example, it makes
little sense to have a "5 minute" wash before HCA since
the whole point of HCA is to aid in the washing. A simple
1 minute rinse would do. But the overall goal, which is not
a gimmick, is to achieve archival limits in as short a wash
time as possible. Using rapid fix is more efficacious in
that regard.


I suppose that's it; a procedural gimmick, those specific
times, 5, 10, 5 minutes; wash, hca, wash. A fix as short as
will do a complete job is the usuall recommendation. Does
any one actually follow that still current Ilford
Archival sequence?
Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the Vortex has
said this; "...the entire sequence is probably best done in
trays..."
I use fixer very dilute; A. Thio. 1:31 one-shot. It has no
build up of halide or silver at start. As fixation ends the
fixer nears exhaustion.
One other related matter; "...the overall goal,...is to
achieve archival limits in as short a wash time as possible".
And I think "...using the least water." That from Mr. Reed.
I think shortest this and shortest that tend to be labor
intensive. I think it was Mr. Miniter who washed clean a
print taken from a highly alkaline fix in ten minutes
of CONSTANT agitation. Dan