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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 12th 07, 11:21 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Mr.Bolshoyhuy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

On Nov 12, 10:11 am, wrote:
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes
of flash strength in their built in flash?


yes, the Casio P&S's have -2 to +2.
The Kodak P850 has a powerful flash, if set to +1 it's like a real
flash.
How far/close to/from the subject do you expect to stand?

in low indoors light, the flash on a P&S does help, and you can set it
to 'soft'.

  #12  
Old November 13th 07, 10:50 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Ron Hunter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,064
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

wrote:
The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the
camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went
to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the
dpreview website and found the following:
For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m.
Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as
Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash
Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m.
Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is
much better than G7/G9 at 8m.
For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around
11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly,
Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon
40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m.
- Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR?
Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a
DSLR?
- I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in
large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved
by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S
cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot
improve your lighting in indoor shots.
- Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are
they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low
ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is
superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say
Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon
G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it
makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also
as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100.
- Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a
Canon Xti?
- How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m,
12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash
guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m
distance?
- Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended
pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of
this? Less red-eye images?
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes
of flash strength in their built in flash?
Thanks for the info and discussion.


Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have
space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras
just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger
flash mechanisms.
Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert
with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look
for that information in the specs.
P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so
they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of
limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size.
If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is
probably not for you.
Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable
range.

  #13  
Old November 13th 07, 10:58 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Ron Hunter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,064
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

landon crowly wrote:
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:29:55 +0000, bugbear
wrote:

wrote:
- Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR?
Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a
DSLR?
- I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in
large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved
by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S
cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot
improve your lighting in indoor shots.

Unless you have a truly powerful flash, you're doomed;
this pretty much means off camera, and BIG (read heavy).

On camera-flashes are (IMHO) a nice "get a shot"
work rounds, when the alternative is getting nothing,
but most on-camera flashes don't give you good shots:
just snaps.


I despise use of flash as the main source of light for any and all photography.
The on-board flash in any camera is more than enough needed for the occasional
fill-flash touch-ups that I'll allow in my photos. Meaning, they are more flash
than anyone really ever needs. IF they are a worthwhile photographer shooting
real-life scenarios and not working with staged studio shots. Then no
studio-photographer in his right mind would ever use a flash that near the
camera anyway, unless for some garish special-effect.

The only exception I'll allow myself is when trying to document a subject where
there is no available light to work with.


I am also a fan of 'available light'. I like to capture what I SEE, and
using flash, disrupts that almost completely. A camera with a good low
light sensitivity (high ISO), and relatively long exposure time, can
compensate for poor flash performance, and avoid all the negative
aspects of using a flash, like reflections, and produce a much better
picture. Of course, I don't take pictures in caves, or dark rooms....
  #15  
Old November 13th 07, 03:12 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
franklin-d-worth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter wrote:

wrote:
The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the
camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went
to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the
dpreview website and found the following:
For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m.
Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as
Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash
Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m.
Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is
much better than G7/G9 at 8m.
For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around
11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly,
Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon
40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m.
- Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR?
Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a
DSLR?
- I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in
large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved
by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S
cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot
improve your lighting in indoor shots.
- Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are
they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low
ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is
superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say
Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon
G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it
makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also
as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100.
- Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a
Canon Xti?
- How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m,
12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash
guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m
distance?
- Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended
pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of
this? Less red-eye images?
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes
of flash strength in their built in flash?
Thanks for the info and discussion.


Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have
space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras
just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger
flash mechanisms.
Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert
with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look
for that information in the specs.
P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so
they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of
limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size.
If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is
probably not for you.
Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable
range.


Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we?

dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive,
internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair

P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable,
inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash option on
the market

Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a dSLR
really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in flash
to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and cost. I
can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think of
including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so. No Pro
in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was a sign
of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15
Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash folds
down to where you can't even tell it has one.)

Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always clamoring for
more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure,
live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing shutter-speed
effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even want
audio and video recording capability too now.

Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much? It's
not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and jealousy
that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that great
why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting to
make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy.

What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh?

  #16  
Old November 13th 07, 04:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Bill Again[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras


"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter
wrote:

wrote:
The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the
camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went
to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the
dpreview website and found the following:
For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m.
Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as
Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash
Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m.
Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is
much better than G7/G9 at 8m.
For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around
11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly,
Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon
40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m.
- Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR?
Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a
DSLR?
- I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in
large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved
by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S
cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot
improve your lighting in indoor shots.
- Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are
they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low
ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is
superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say
Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon
G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it
makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also
as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100.
- Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a
Canon Xti?
- How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m,
12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash
guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m
distance?
- Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended
pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of
this? Less red-eye images?
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes
of flash strength in their built in flash?
Thanks for the info and discussion.


Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have
space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras
just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger
flash mechanisms.
Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert
with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look
for that information in the specs.
P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so
they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of
limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size.
If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is
probably not for you.
Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable
range.


Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we?

dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive,
internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair

P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable,
inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash
option on
the market

Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a
dSLR
really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in
flash
to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and
cost. I
can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think
of
including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so.
No Pro
in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was
a sign
of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15
Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash
folds
down to where you can't even tell it has one.)

Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always
clamoring for
more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure,
live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing
shutter-speed
effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even
want
audio and video recording capability too now.

Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much?
It's
not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and
jealousy
that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that
great
why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting
to
make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy.

What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh?



Funny. But inaccurate. There may well be a large number of amateur
photographers who have bought dSLRs and who later regret it because their
chosen camera doesn't have the bells and whistles of a P&S. On the other
hand there are a lot of photographers who have bought dSLRs because the
camera offers them a lot more than does a P&S in terms of control. I guess
that this might be the same difference as between those who bought an
Instamatic or a Brownie and those who bought an analogue SLR. Personally I
like the trend for a good dSLR that actually moves away from the cheap
digital tricks. The Pentax K10D, for one, has been designed to mimic an
analogue camera as nearly as possible and the designers' have shied away
from building in many of the commoner *digital* settings.

That's all.

Bill


  #17  
Old November 13th 07, 04:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
-hh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 838
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

franklin-d-worth wrote:

Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we?


Let's weigh the poster's headers first...

Gosh, its that lame anonymous cowardly sockpuppet...again!


dSLR + built-in high-power flash = ...
internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair


The claim of "whole camera goes in for repair" also applies exactly
the same for all of the internals on P&S's too. As such, this is an
utterly meaningless statement because it does not differentiate the
products.


P&S + accessory flash = ...
flash failure = use a different or new flash...


Since most P&S lack a hot shoe (including the Panasonic DMC-FZ18K),
just how is the accessory being triggered?

Yup, it is being slaved off the firing of the internal.

Which means that when said "flash failure" of the internal occurs, the
slave accessory flash can't be triggered, so these cameras are dead in
the water without any strobe capabilities whatsoever.


-hh


  #18  
Old November 13th 07, 05:07 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
franklin-d-worth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:50 +0100, "Bill Again" wrote:


"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter
wrote:

wrote:
The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the
camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went
to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the
dpreview website and found the following:
For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m.
Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as
Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash
Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m.
Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is
much better than G7/G9 at 8m.
For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around
11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly,
Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon
40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m.
- Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR?
Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a
DSLR?
- I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in
large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved
by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S
cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot
improve your lighting in indoor shots.
- Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are
they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low
ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is
superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say
Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon
G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it
makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also
as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100.
- Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a
Canon Xti?
- How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m,
12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash
guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m
distance?
- Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended
pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of
this? Less red-eye images?
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes
of flash strength in their built in flash?
Thanks for the info and discussion.


Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have
space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras
just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger
flash mechanisms.
Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert
with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look
for that information in the specs.
P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so
they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of
limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size.
If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is
probably not for you.
Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable
range.


Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we?

dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive,
internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair

P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable,
inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash
option on
the market

Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a
dSLR
really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in
flash
to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and
cost. I
can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think
of
including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so.
No Pro
in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was
a sign
of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15
Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash
folds
down to where you can't even tell it has one.)

Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always
clamoring for
more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure,
live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing
shutter-speed
effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even
want
audio and video recording capability too now.

Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much?
It's
not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and
jealousy
that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that
great
why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting
to
make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy.

What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh?



Funny. But inaccurate. There may well be a large number of amateur
photographers who have bought dSLRs and who later regret it because their
chosen camera doesn't have the bells and whistles of a P&S. On the other
hand there are a lot of photographers who have bought dSLRs because the
camera offers them a lot more than does a P&S in terms of control. I guess
that this might be the same difference as between those who bought an
Instamatic or a Brownie and those who bought an analogue SLR. Personally I
like the trend for a good dSLR that actually moves away from the cheap
digital tricks. The Pentax K10D, for one, has been designed to mimic an
analogue camera as nearly as possible and the designers' have shied away
from building in many of the commoner *digital* settings.

That's all.

Bill


If it's the amount of control that determines the absolute in cameras then I
guess a P&S designed to let you choose shooting between available light or
infra-red spectrums with the push of a button, and using manual focusing and
zoom rings on an 11mm-320mm (+macro) f/2.0-2.4 Zeiss lens must be the ultimate
in control, along with all the usual shutter, f-stop, !00-3200 ISO, and other
manual controls. I'm accurately describing one of my own P&S cameras by the way.

No, that's not the ultimate in control. Some of the P&S cameras that can run
CHDK today are the ultimate in manual or automated control. Some of their
controllable options easily beating even the $12,000 dSLR bodies being sold this
year. Can you manually choose what colors you'd like on your under/over-exposure
viewfinder overlay or by what limits that you want that under/over detection
sensitivity? Can you control up to 1024 areas of your viewfinder, their
sampling-rates, and sensitivity levels in each region that you want to detect
subject-motion to trigger your shutter? Choose between 7 different
live-histograms? 108 different video-compression options in 2 different flavors?
Can you design your own cropping and composition masks for your viewfinder in
any colors you want? This list is extremely long so I won't mention them all,
there's a whole CHDK dedicated web-site to describe all that you can control on
your CHDK-capable camera. The scripting options also allowing for automated
control of the camera's manual features that no other cameras on earth can equal
(such as 96 steps per f-stop for EV and flash levels). If these P&S cameras only
had IR and UV options too ... sigh ...

If it's control that determines the best of all cameras then you're really going
to have to look into the P&S models now and in the past. I've not found one dSLR
yet that allows for the amount of myriad ways that one can control a P&S camera.
This includes being able to control the ways that it can record stereo-audio and
videos too. Put a higher quality lower-noise sensor into any of the high-quality
super-zoom P&S camera that I've already bought and that's all that anyone would
ever need.

While you're trying to control the limited features of that dSLR, would you
PLEASE do something about controlling that obnoxious sound they make so that
cameras are allowed back into public performances? Thanks. That's another
control option I get to have. I can control if I want my camera to make noises
or not and how loud I want them to be. My shutter can sound like a whinnying
horse or round of applause if I so choose (though a phaser firing sound for the
delete button is kind of fun). You have zero control over the sounds your camera
makes. You have one sound output option available clearly labeled "Obnoxious",
which anyone near you can read. You do realize that the d/SLR is the main reason
that cameras have been banned so many places, don't you? The only people on
earth that like dSLRs are the people that choose to buy them. The rest of us
know better and are more considerate and respectful of all others.

  #19  
Old November 13th 07, 06:46 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Bill Again[_2_]
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Posts: 26
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras


"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:50 +0100, "Bill Again" wrote:


"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter
wrote:

wrote:
The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the
camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went
to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the
dpreview website and found the following:
For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m.
Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as
Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash
Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m.
Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is
much better than G7/G9 at 8m.
For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around
11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly,
Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon
40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m.
- Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR?
Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a
DSLR?
- I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in
large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved
by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S
cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot
improve your lighting in indoor shots.
- Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are
they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low
ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is
superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say
Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon
G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it
makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also
as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100.
- Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a
Canon Xti?
- How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m,
12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash
guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m
distance?
- Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended
pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of
this? Less red-eye images?
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes
of flash strength in their built in flash?
Thanks for the info and discussion.


Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have
space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras
just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger
flash mechanisms.
Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert
with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look
for that information in the specs.
P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so
they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of
limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size.
If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is
probably not for you.
Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable
range.

Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we?

dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive,
internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair

P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable,
inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash
option on
the market

Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a
dSLR
really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a
built-in
flash
to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and
cost. I
can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even
think
of
including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly
so.
No Pro
in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That
was
a sign
of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15
Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash
folds
down to where you can't even tell it has one.)

Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always
clamoring for
more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure,
live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing
shutter-speed
effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them
even
want
audio and video recording capability too now.

Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so
much?
It's
not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and
jealousy
that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that
great
why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all
starting
to
make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy.

What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh?



Funny. But inaccurate. There may well be a large number of amateur
photographers who have bought dSLRs and who later regret it because their
chosen camera doesn't have the bells and whistles of a P&S. On the other
hand there are a lot of photographers who have bought dSLRs because the
camera offers them a lot more than does a P&S in terms of control. I guess
that this might be the same difference as between those who bought an
Instamatic or a Brownie and those who bought an analogue SLR. Personally I
like the trend for a good dSLR that actually moves away from the cheap
digital tricks. The Pentax K10D, for one, has been designed to mimic an
analogue camera as nearly as possible and the designers' have shied away
from building in many of the commoner *digital* settings.

That's all.

Bill


If it's the amount of control that determines the absolute in cameras then
I
guess a P&S designed to let you choose shooting between available light or
infra-red spectrums with the push of a button, and using manual focusing
and
zoom rings on an 11mm-320mm (+macro) f/2.0-2.4 Zeiss lens must be the
ultimate
in control, along with all the usual shutter, f-stop, !00-3200 ISO, and
other
manual controls. I'm accurately describing one of my own P&S cameras by
the way.

No, that's not the ultimate in control. Some of the P&S cameras that can
run
CHDK today are the ultimate in manual or automated control. Some of their
controllable options easily beating even the $12,000 dSLR bodies being
sold this
year. Can you manually choose what colors you'd like on your
under/over-exposure
viewfinder overlay or by what limits that you want that under/over
detection
sensitivity? Can you control up to 1024 areas of your viewfinder, their
sampling-rates, and sensitivity levels in each region that you want to
detect
subject-motion to trigger your shutter? Choose between 7 different
live-histograms? 108 different video-compression options in 2 different
flavors?
Can you design your own cropping and composition masks for your viewfinder
in
any colors you want? This list is extremely long so I won't mention them
all,
there's a whole CHDK dedicated web-site to describe all that you can
control on
your CHDK-capable camera. The scripting options also allowing for
automated
control of the camera's manual features that no other cameras on earth can
equal
(such as 96 steps per f-stop for EV and flash levels). If these P&S
cameras only
had IR and UV options too ... sigh ...

If it's control that determines the best of all cameras then you're really
going
to have to look into the P&S models now and in the past. I've not found
one dSLR
yet that allows for the amount of myriad ways that one can control a P&S
camera.
This includes being able to control the ways that it can record
stereo-audio and
videos too. Put a higher quality lower-noise sensor into any of the
high-quality
super-zoom P&S camera that I've already bought and that's all that anyone
would
ever need.

While you're trying to control the limited features of that dSLR, would
you
PLEASE do something about controlling that obnoxious sound they make so
that
cameras are allowed back into public performances? Thanks. That's another
control option I get to have. I can control if I want my camera to make
noises
or not and how loud I want them to be. My shutter can sound like a
whinnying
horse or round of applause if I so choose (though a phaser firing sound
for the
delete button is kind of fun). You have zero control over the sounds your
camera
makes. You have one sound output option available clearly labeled
"Obnoxious",
which anyone near you can read. You do realize that the d/SLR is the main
reason
that cameras have been banned so many places, don't you? The only people
on
earth that like dSLRs are the people that choose to buy them. The rest of
us
know better and are more considerate and respectful of all others.


I guess that by "control" I don't actually mean how many knobs the camera
has. I have owned, so far, 9 digital cameras, only one of which is a dSLR.
The others varied from point and shoot to the Lumix fz50 which I saw as a
near-SLR camera. Yes, some of them allowed me to choose the noise they make.
However as far as I am concerned the choice of noise emitted is irrelevant.
If I wanted a musical instrument I would buy one. Nor do I want a camera
that records stereo audio or video. For that I would use dedicated
equipment. Perhaps you would like it to make coffee as well?

And no, the noise or otherwise that a camera makes is not the reason they
have been banned. If they are banned, and so far I have been banned from
precious few places, it is because of perceived threats to copyright. But I
have photographed in many galleries, including the Schirn in Frankfurt and
the Hermitage in St Petersburg, no one objected to any noise, and many of
them wanted to be in the picture.

You suggest putting a higher quality lower noise sensor into a high quality
super zoom P&S. If it was this simple then why isn't it done.

Frankly it reduces to one thing. Show me a professional photographer that is
using a point and shoot.

That's all.

Robert R.



  #20  
Old November 13th 07, 07:23 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,uk.rec.photo.misc,rec.photo.equipment.misc
franklin-d-worth
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Posts: 12
Default Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:46:10 +0100, "Bill Again" wrote:


Frankly it reduces to one thing. Show me a professional photographer that is
using a point and shoot.

That's all.



http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-6468-7844


There you go. I guess you'll have to switch now since you say it reduces to just
this one thing. Just show you one pro that uses a P&S camera.

That's just one. I'm another. So are many others.

How sad that you set your equipment criteria by what others are using. Can't you
think for yourself? Do you only take photos of subjects that others have already
photographed too? If nobody else has photographed that subject in the same way
then it must not be worth photographing according to the way you choose things.
If I did that I'd find another career.

One person on dpreview who regularly provides work for house & home and
architectural photojournalism magazines regularly slips in photos from his P&S
cameras. The publishers and editors never notice any difference in his work. He
doesn't want them to know that he's using his P&S cameras for most of his
photography due to the stigma that people like you have attached to them. Then
he wouldn't be a "professional" photographer, right?

Just because they don't say they use them for their professional work doesn't
mean that they don't use them for that.

 




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