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#11
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
On Nov 12, 10:11 am, wrote:
- Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes of flash strength in their built in flash? yes, the Casio P&S's have -2 to +2. The Kodak P850 has a powerful flash, if set to +1 it's like a real flash. How far/close to/from the subject do you expect to stand? in low indoors light, the flash on a P&S does help, and you can set it to 'soft'. |
#12
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
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#13
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
landon crowly wrote:
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:29:55 +0000, bugbear wrote: wrote: - Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR? Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a DSLR? - I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot improve your lighting in indoor shots. Unless you have a truly powerful flash, you're doomed; this pretty much means off camera, and BIG (read heavy). On camera-flashes are (IMHO) a nice "get a shot" work rounds, when the alternative is getting nothing, but most on-camera flashes don't give you good shots: just snaps. I despise use of flash as the main source of light for any and all photography. The on-board flash in any camera is more than enough needed for the occasional fill-flash touch-ups that I'll allow in my photos. Meaning, they are more flash than anyone really ever needs. IF they are a worthwhile photographer shooting real-life scenarios and not working with staged studio shots. Then no studio-photographer in his right mind would ever use a flash that near the camera anyway, unless for some garish special-effect. The only exception I'll allow myself is when trying to document a subject where there is no available light to work with. I am also a fan of 'available light'. I like to capture what I SEE, and using flash, disrupts that almost completely. A camera with a good low light sensitivity (high ISO), and relatively long exposure time, can compensate for poor flash performance, and avoid all the negative aspects of using a flash, like reflections, and produce a much better picture. Of course, I don't take pictures in caves, or dark rooms.... |
#14
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
In rec.photo.digital Ron Hunter wrote:
wrote: Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger flash mechanisms. Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look for that information in the specs. P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size. If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is probably not for you. I happily used a P&S with a silly little flash to take good flash photos by using two big external programmable flashes triggered optically, often with the tiny flash bounced away from the subject. -- Chris Malcolm DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] |
#15
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter wrote:
wrote: The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the dpreview website and found the following: For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m. Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m. Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is much better than G7/G9 at 8m. For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around 11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly, Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon 40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m. - Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR? Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a DSLR? - I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot improve your lighting in indoor shots. - Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. - Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a Canon Xti? - How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m, 12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m distance? - Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of this? Less red-eye images? - Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes of flash strength in their built in flash? Thanks for the info and discussion. Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger flash mechanisms. Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look for that information in the specs. P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size. If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is probably not for you. Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable range. Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we? dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive, internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable, inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash option on the market Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a dSLR really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in flash to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and cost. I can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think of including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so. No Pro in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was a sign of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15 Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash folds down to where you can't even tell it has one.) Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always clamoring for more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure, live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing shutter-speed effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even want audio and video recording capability too now. Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much? It's not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and jealousy that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that great why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting to make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy. What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh? |
#16
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter wrote: wrote: The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the dpreview website and found the following: For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m. Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m. Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is much better than G7/G9 at 8m. For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around 11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly, Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon 40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m. - Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR? Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a DSLR? - I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot improve your lighting in indoor shots. - Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. - Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a Canon Xti? - How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m, 12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m distance? - Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of this? Less red-eye images? - Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes of flash strength in their built in flash? Thanks for the info and discussion. Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger flash mechanisms. Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look for that information in the specs. P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size. If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is probably not for you. Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable range. Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we? dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive, internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable, inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash option on the market Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a dSLR really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in flash to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and cost. I can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think of including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so. No Pro in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was a sign of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15 Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash folds down to where you can't even tell it has one.) Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always clamoring for more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure, live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing shutter-speed effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even want audio and video recording capability too now. Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much? It's not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and jealousy that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that great why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting to make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy. What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh? Funny. But inaccurate. There may well be a large number of amateur photographers who have bought dSLRs and who later regret it because their chosen camera doesn't have the bells and whistles of a P&S. On the other hand there are a lot of photographers who have bought dSLRs because the camera offers them a lot more than does a P&S in terms of control. I guess that this might be the same difference as between those who bought an Instamatic or a Brownie and those who bought an analogue SLR. Personally I like the trend for a good dSLR that actually moves away from the cheap digital tricks. The Pentax K10D, for one, has been designed to mimic an analogue camera as nearly as possible and the designers' have shied away from building in many of the commoner *digital* settings. That's all. Bill |
#17
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
franklin-d-worth wrote:
Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we? Let's weigh the poster's headers first... Gosh, its that lame anonymous cowardly sockpuppet...again! dSLR + built-in high-power flash = ... internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair The claim of "whole camera goes in for repair" also applies exactly the same for all of the internals on P&S's too. As such, this is an utterly meaningless statement because it does not differentiate the products. P&S + accessory flash = ... flash failure = use a different or new flash... Since most P&S lack a hot shoe (including the Panasonic DMC-FZ18K), just how is the accessory being triggered? Yup, it is being slaved off the firing of the internal. Which means that when said "flash failure" of the internal occurs, the slave accessory flash can't be triggered, so these cameras are dead in the water without any strobe capabilities whatsoever. -hh |
#18
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:50 +0100, "Bill Again" wrote:
"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter wrote: wrote: The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the dpreview website and found the following: For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m. Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m. Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is much better than G7/G9 at 8m. For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around 11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly, Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon 40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m. - Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR? Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a DSLR? - I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot improve your lighting in indoor shots. - Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. - Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a Canon Xti? - How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m, 12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m distance? - Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of this? Less red-eye images? - Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes of flash strength in their built in flash? Thanks for the info and discussion. Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger flash mechanisms. Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look for that information in the specs. P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size. If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is probably not for you. Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable range. Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we? dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive, internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable, inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash option on the market Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a dSLR really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in flash to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and cost. I can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think of including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so. No Pro in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was a sign of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15 Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash folds down to where you can't even tell it has one.) Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always clamoring for more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure, live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing shutter-speed effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even want audio and video recording capability too now. Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much? It's not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and jealousy that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that great why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting to make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy. What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh? Funny. But inaccurate. There may well be a large number of amateur photographers who have bought dSLRs and who later regret it because their chosen camera doesn't have the bells and whistles of a P&S. On the other hand there are a lot of photographers who have bought dSLRs because the camera offers them a lot more than does a P&S in terms of control. I guess that this might be the same difference as between those who bought an Instamatic or a Brownie and those who bought an analogue SLR. Personally I like the trend for a good dSLR that actually moves away from the cheap digital tricks. The Pentax K10D, for one, has been designed to mimic an analogue camera as nearly as possible and the designers' have shied away from building in many of the commoner *digital* settings. That's all. Bill If it's the amount of control that determines the absolute in cameras then I guess a P&S designed to let you choose shooting between available light or infra-red spectrums with the push of a button, and using manual focusing and zoom rings on an 11mm-320mm (+macro) f/2.0-2.4 Zeiss lens must be the ultimate in control, along with all the usual shutter, f-stop, !00-3200 ISO, and other manual controls. I'm accurately describing one of my own P&S cameras by the way. No, that's not the ultimate in control. Some of the P&S cameras that can run CHDK today are the ultimate in manual or automated control. Some of their controllable options easily beating even the $12,000 dSLR bodies being sold this year. Can you manually choose what colors you'd like on your under/over-exposure viewfinder overlay or by what limits that you want that under/over detection sensitivity? Can you control up to 1024 areas of your viewfinder, their sampling-rates, and sensitivity levels in each region that you want to detect subject-motion to trigger your shutter? Choose between 7 different live-histograms? 108 different video-compression options in 2 different flavors? Can you design your own cropping and composition masks for your viewfinder in any colors you want? This list is extremely long so I won't mention them all, there's a whole CHDK dedicated web-site to describe all that you can control on your CHDK-capable camera. The scripting options also allowing for automated control of the camera's manual features that no other cameras on earth can equal (such as 96 steps per f-stop for EV and flash levels). If these P&S cameras only had IR and UV options too ... sigh ... If it's control that determines the best of all cameras then you're really going to have to look into the P&S models now and in the past. I've not found one dSLR yet that allows for the amount of myriad ways that one can control a P&S camera. This includes being able to control the ways that it can record stereo-audio and videos too. Put a higher quality lower-noise sensor into any of the high-quality super-zoom P&S camera that I've already bought and that's all that anyone would ever need. While you're trying to control the limited features of that dSLR, would you PLEASE do something about controlling that obnoxious sound they make so that cameras are allowed back into public performances? Thanks. That's another control option I get to have. I can control if I want my camera to make noises or not and how loud I want them to be. My shutter can sound like a whinnying horse or round of applause if I so choose (though a phaser firing sound for the delete button is kind of fun). You have zero control over the sounds your camera makes. You have one sound output option available clearly labeled "Obnoxious", which anyone near you can read. You do realize that the d/SLR is the main reason that cameras have been banned so many places, don't you? The only people on earth that like dSLRs are the people that choose to buy them. The rest of us know better and are more considerate and respectful of all others. |
#19
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
"franklin-d-worth" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:00:50 +0100, "Bill Again" wrote: "franklin-d-worth" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:50:55 -0600, Ron Hunter wrote: wrote: The other day, I saw the new Sony P&S camera - DSC H3. On top of the camera, it was indicated that it has a strong built in flash. I went to search about built-in flash feature in a digital camera at the dpreview website and found the following: For P&S digital cameras: Canon G7 has a weak flash, Flash guide of 4m. Canon S51S is stronger. Sony H3 has a Flash guide no. of 7m, while as Sony DSC H7 or H9 is the strongest I found for P&S camera - Flash Guide of 9.8m. Canon SX100 is even worse than the G7/G9 - at only 3m. Lumix Fz18/FZ8 has a flash guide of 6m, and FZ50 has 7m. Nikon 5100 is much better than G7/G9 at 8m. For DSLR: Most cameras with built-in flash has Flash Guide around 11-13m. Canon 5D does not even have a built-in flash. Surprisingly, Nikon D40 and D40x has flash guide no. of 17m. As comparison, Canon 40D/30D/Xti all have only a flash guide of 12m. - Why P&S cameras have relatively weaker built-in flash than the DSLR? Could P&S cameras be designed to have stronger built-in flash like a DSLR? - I noticed that my P&S camera usually is too weak to take picture in large indoors (restaurant, meeting halls, etc). Could this be improved by stronger flash? I have always complained in the past that most P&S cameras have tiny built-in flash, and without a hot-shoe, you cannot improve your lighting in indoor shots. - Anyone tried the built-in flash in Sony H3 or Sony H7 and H9?. Are they much better than flash in other cameras, particularly the low ones like Canon G7/SX100? Does this mean that Sony H3/H7/H9 is superior for taking photo indoors for people in a group than, say Canon G7/G9? I found that Sony H3 is a good competitor against Canon G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. It may have less features than G7/G9, but it makes good quality images and it is cheaper than a G7/G9. It is also as compact as a G7/G9 or Nikon P5100. - Is built in flash in Nikon D40x really stronger than flash in a Canon Xti? - How much difference are relatively between a Flash Guide of 3m, 7m, 12m and 17m ? I assume that this is all based on ASA100? Does a flash guide 17m mean that you can get a good coverage of flash to 17m distance? - Panasonic Lumix L1 is about the only DSLR camera that has extended pop-up flash feature (ie. 2 level heights). What is the advantage of this? Less red-eye images? - Are there digital cameras (P&S or DSLR) which have two or more modes of flash strength in their built in flash? Thanks for the info and discussion. Ok, to begin with, larger cameras can mount larger flash tubes, and have space for more battery power to keep them flashing. Smaller cameras just don't have the space, or battery power to accommodate the larger flash mechanisms. Some cameras do control the brightness of the flash, usually in concert with the light metering, and the focusing system. Others don't. Look for that information in the specs. P&S cameras aren't designed to take flash pictures in large areas, so they don't manage well in this application. It is just a matter of limitations of size, weight, and battery power imposed by their size. If you routinely take pictures in such situations, then a P&S camera is probably not for you. Reviews usually list the flash distances with comments about the usable range. Let's weigh the identical flash-reach options, shall we? dSLR + built-in high-power flash = always overweight, always expensive, internal dedicated flash failure = whole camera goes in for repair P&S + accessory flash = lightweight w/o high-power flash, adaptable, inexpensive, flash failure = use a different or new flash, any flash option on the market Sorry, dSLR still doesn't win even for its built in flash. In fact if a dSLR really wanted to be more of an SLR than a P&S it wouldn't have a built-in flash to begin with, taking up all that extra irremovable size, weight, and cost. I can't recall even one professional SLR from the past that would even think of including an onboard flash. Flash was always an accessory and rightly so. No Pro in his right mind would buy a camera with a flash built into it. That was a sign of cheapness and P&S convenience. It makes any camera look like a $15 Instamatic. (I wonder if this is why I buy P&S cameras where the flash folds down to where you can't even tell it has one.) Isn't it funny as the years go on the dSLR "Pro" people are always clamoring for more and more P&S features on their cameras. Auto focus, auto-exposure, live-view for that amplified viewfinder in low light and seeing shutter-speed effects, on-board flash, silent operation, ..... I bet some of them even want audio and video recording capability too now. Is this another clue into why they speak out against P&S cameras so much? It's not because they don't like P&S cameras it's really out of envy and jealousy that their dSLR can't be more like a P&S camera. If their dSLR was that great why would they feel the need to belittle other cameras? It's all starting to make perfect sense -- P'n'S Envy. What an odd and accurate coincidental homophone, eh? Funny. But inaccurate. There may well be a large number of amateur photographers who have bought dSLRs and who later regret it because their chosen camera doesn't have the bells and whistles of a P&S. On the other hand there are a lot of photographers who have bought dSLRs because the camera offers them a lot more than does a P&S in terms of control. I guess that this might be the same difference as between those who bought an Instamatic or a Brownie and those who bought an analogue SLR. Personally I like the trend for a good dSLR that actually moves away from the cheap digital tricks. The Pentax K10D, for one, has been designed to mimic an analogue camera as nearly as possible and the designers' have shied away from building in many of the commoner *digital* settings. That's all. Bill If it's the amount of control that determines the absolute in cameras then I guess a P&S designed to let you choose shooting between available light or infra-red spectrums with the push of a button, and using manual focusing and zoom rings on an 11mm-320mm (+macro) f/2.0-2.4 Zeiss lens must be the ultimate in control, along with all the usual shutter, f-stop, !00-3200 ISO, and other manual controls. I'm accurately describing one of my own P&S cameras by the way. No, that's not the ultimate in control. Some of the P&S cameras that can run CHDK today are the ultimate in manual or automated control. Some of their controllable options easily beating even the $12,000 dSLR bodies being sold this year. Can you manually choose what colors you'd like on your under/over-exposure viewfinder overlay or by what limits that you want that under/over detection sensitivity? Can you control up to 1024 areas of your viewfinder, their sampling-rates, and sensitivity levels in each region that you want to detect subject-motion to trigger your shutter? Choose between 7 different live-histograms? 108 different video-compression options in 2 different flavors? Can you design your own cropping and composition masks for your viewfinder in any colors you want? This list is extremely long so I won't mention them all, there's a whole CHDK dedicated web-site to describe all that you can control on your CHDK-capable camera. The scripting options also allowing for automated control of the camera's manual features that no other cameras on earth can equal (such as 96 steps per f-stop for EV and flash levels). If these P&S cameras only had IR and UV options too ... sigh ... If it's control that determines the best of all cameras then you're really going to have to look into the P&S models now and in the past. I've not found one dSLR yet that allows for the amount of myriad ways that one can control a P&S camera. This includes being able to control the ways that it can record stereo-audio and videos too. Put a higher quality lower-noise sensor into any of the high-quality super-zoom P&S camera that I've already bought and that's all that anyone would ever need. While you're trying to control the limited features of that dSLR, would you PLEASE do something about controlling that obnoxious sound they make so that cameras are allowed back into public performances? Thanks. That's another control option I get to have. I can control if I want my camera to make noises or not and how loud I want them to be. My shutter can sound like a whinnying horse or round of applause if I so choose (though a phaser firing sound for the delete button is kind of fun). You have zero control over the sounds your camera makes. You have one sound output option available clearly labeled "Obnoxious", which anyone near you can read. You do realize that the d/SLR is the main reason that cameras have been banned so many places, don't you? The only people on earth that like dSLRs are the people that choose to buy them. The rest of us know better and are more considerate and respectful of all others. I guess that by "control" I don't actually mean how many knobs the camera has. I have owned, so far, 9 digital cameras, only one of which is a dSLR. The others varied from point and shoot to the Lumix fz50 which I saw as a near-SLR camera. Yes, some of them allowed me to choose the noise they make. However as far as I am concerned the choice of noise emitted is irrelevant. If I wanted a musical instrument I would buy one. Nor do I want a camera that records stereo audio or video. For that I would use dedicated equipment. Perhaps you would like it to make coffee as well? And no, the noise or otherwise that a camera makes is not the reason they have been banned. If they are banned, and so far I have been banned from precious few places, it is because of perceived threats to copyright. But I have photographed in many galleries, including the Schirn in Frankfurt and the Hermitage in St Petersburg, no one objected to any noise, and many of them wanted to be in the picture. You suggest putting a higher quality lower noise sensor into a high quality super zoom P&S. If it was this simple then why isn't it done. Frankly it reduces to one thing. Show me a professional photographer that is using a point and shoot. That's all. Robert R. |
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Built-in flash in P&S digital and DSLR cameras
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:46:10 +0100, "Bill Again" wrote:
Frankly it reduces to one thing. Show me a professional photographer that is using a point and shoot. That's all. http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-6468-7844 There you go. I guess you'll have to switch now since you say it reduces to just this one thing. Just show you one pro that uses a P&S camera. That's just one. I'm another. So are many others. How sad that you set your equipment criteria by what others are using. Can't you think for yourself? Do you only take photos of subjects that others have already photographed too? If nobody else has photographed that subject in the same way then it must not be worth photographing according to the way you choose things. If I did that I'd find another career. One person on dpreview who regularly provides work for house & home and architectural photojournalism magazines regularly slips in photos from his P&S cameras. The publishers and editors never notice any difference in his work. He doesn't want them to know that he's using his P&S cameras for most of his photography due to the stigma that people like you have attached to them. Then he wouldn't be a "professional" photographer, right? Just because they don't say they use them for their professional work doesn't mean that they don't use them for that. |
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