What the M is

A number of people, some of whom should know better, have been dissing the new
Canon M for not having some or all of the features of a professional or
semi-professional DSLR. I think we should be careful not to let their
disappointment distract us from what has actually happened here. Which is that
Canon, before any of its competitors, has begun a line of mirrorless cameras
capable of evolving, with body enhancements only, into a putative replacement
for some of its serious cameras (in their case, the 7D and ultimately, with a
FF sensor, the 5D as well). The keys to that are the 18MP APS-C sensor and the
provision for use of Canon's existing lens inventory.

So if that evolution can happen, why didn't it? (After all, several
manufacturers have already shown that mirrorless technology does work.)
Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary high-resolution
EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it would run too hot and go
through batteries too fast. It's no coincidence that the M is targeted for a
market segment that can arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder. But that
doesn't mean that Canon isn't actually aiming higher. Future processors will
be more efficient; future batteries will be more powerful; and a larger camera
can be a more effective heat sink. Meanwhile, the M serves as a prototype that
should allow Canon to perfect its new autofocus system and other new features
a high-end mirrorless camera will need.

I can only hope that those future cameras start to appear before I'm too old
and feeble to use one. ;^)

Bob

On 25/07/2012 10:53 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:

Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary high-resolution
EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it would run too hot and go
through batteries too fast. It's no coincidence that the M is targeted for a
market segment that can arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder.

No. You should take a trip to a local camera store, and try a Sony slt
a77. The EVF is fantastic, and IIRC, battery life allows up to 1,000
shots per charge. (of course the EVF is still going to chew through much
more battery than a dslr)
Secondly, the EOS-M has a rear LCD, which probably uses /more/ battery
power than an EVF.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:20:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: On 25/07/2012 10:53 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
:
: Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary high-resolution
: EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it would run too hot and go
: through batteries too fast. It's no coincidence that the M is targeted for a
: market segment that can arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder.
:
: No. You should take a trip to a local camera store, and try a Sony slt
: a77. The EVF is fantastic, and IIRC, battery life allows up to 1,000
: shots per charge. (of course the EVF is still going to chew through much
: more battery than a dslr)

The a77 has a 12fps EVF, which is too slow for a serious camera.

: Secondly, the EOS-M has a rear LCD, which probably uses /more/ battery
: power than an EVF.

Irrelevant. You have to have that anyway.

Bob

On 25/07/2012 11:32 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:20:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: On 25/07/2012 10:53 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
:
: Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary high-resolution
: EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it would run too hot and go
: through batteries too fast. It's no coincidence that the M is targeted for a
: market segment that can arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder.
:
: No. You should take a trip to a local camera store, and try a Sony slt
: a77. The EVF is fantastic, and IIRC, battery life allows up to 1,000
: shots per charge. (of course the EVF is still going to chew through much
: more battery than a dslr)

The a77 has a 12fps EVF, which is too slow for a serious camera.

IIRC, the VF is actually 60fps refresh.
I would never own a Sony camera, so if you're assuming that I'm shilling
for Sony, I'm definitely not. But as I said, you should visit a camera
store and look at the SLT a77 EVF (or SLT a65 - I think that has the
same EVF as the a77). It destroyed many of my reservations about EVFs
being ready to take over from OVFs. There is still some noticeable
latency/lag with the a77, and by all accounts, the Sony AF system isn't
a patch on Canon/Nikon dslr wrt focus tracking, at least on models above
entry-point.
The 12fps you refer to is the maximum burst rate.
You are perhaps confused by the fact that during burst shooting, the
60fps feed to the EVF cannot be maintained, and IIRC the EVF displays a
sequence of still images - which may be a bit disconcerting, but
/almost/ the same applies to DSLRs at high burst rate, with OVF blackout
between frames, and where you'll be paying a big premium for models
(Nikon D3/4, Canon 1d etc) with reduced blackout time.

: Secondly, the EOS-M has a rear LCD, which probably uses /more/ battery
: power than an EVF.

Irrelevant. You have to have that anyway.

What?
This was my point, if you have to have it, then better that it uses less
power (like an EVF) than a large rear LCD!

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:43:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: On 25/07/2012 11:32 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
: On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:20:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: : On 25/07/2012 10:53 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
: :
: : Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary high-resolution
: : EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it would run too hot and go
: : through batteries too fast. It's no coincidence that the M is targeted for a
: : market segment that can arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder.
: :
: : No. You should take a trip to a local camera store, and try a Sony slt
: : a77. The EVF is fantastic, and IIRC, battery life allows up to 1,000
: : shots per charge. (of course the EVF is still going to chew through much
: : more battery than a dslr)
:
: The a77 has a 12fps EVF, which is too slow for a serious camera.
:
: IIRC, the VF is actually 60fps refresh.
: I would never own a Sony camera, so if you're assuming that I'm shilling
: for Sony, I'm definitely not. But as I said, you should visit a camera
: store and look at the SLT a77 EVF (or SLT a65 - I think that has the
: same EVF as the a77). It destroyed many of my reservations about EVFs
: being ready to take over from OVFs. There is still some noticeable
: latency/lag with the a77, and by all accounts, the Sony AF system isn't
: a patch on Canon/Nikon dslr wrt focus tracking, at least on models above
: entry-point.
: The 12fps you refer to is the maximum burst rate.

Maybe so. There is a comma after "12fps" that I didn't see before.

: You are perhaps confused by the fact that during burst shooting, the
: 60fps feed to the EVF cannot be maintained, and IIRC the EVF displays a
: sequence of still images - which may be a bit disconcerting, but
: /almost/ the same applies to DSLRs at high burst rate, with OVF blackout
: between frames, and where you'll be paying a big premium for models
: (Nikon D3/4, Canon 1d etc) with reduced blackout time.
:
: : Secondly, the EOS-M has a rear LCD, which probably uses /more/ battery
: : power than an EVF.
:
: Irrelevant. You have to have that anyway.
:
: What?
: This was my point, if you have to have it, then better that it uses less
: power (like an EVF) than a large rear LCD!

When's the last time you saw a digital camera without a rear LCD, regardless
of what other kind of viewfinder it did or didn't have?

Bob

On 2012-07-24 20:43 , Me wrote:

being ready to take over from OVFs. There is still some noticeable
latency/lag with the a77, and by all accounts, the Sony AF system isn't
a patch on Canon/Nikon dslr wrt focus tracking, at least on models above
entry-point.

The lens, not the body, is the main deciding factor for Sony AF.

This is due mostly to the body focus drive and the design of the lens
and how many focus motor 'turns' it needs to move the focus by some amount.

For example the 28-70 f/2.8 is quick, but the 80-200 f/2.8 is faster
than greased lighting. It's scary, actually.

The 100 f/2.8 macro is a bit slow in comparison, but has a focus limiter
to keep the lens out of the macro range when used for non-macro shooting.

As to shutter lag, the a900 is wicked fast - I can only imagine SLT's
being quicker and would hope they approach the 4 - 5ms level of
all-mechanical rangefinders. I look forward to the a99 - though not
convinced I'll buy one.

--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-07-24 18:02:32 -0700, Robert Coe said:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:43:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: On 25/07/2012 11:32 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
: On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:20:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: : On 25/07/2012 10:53 a.m., Robert Coe wrote:
: :
: : Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary
high-resolution
: : EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it would run
too hot and go
: : through batteries too fast. It's no coincidence that the M is
targeted for a
: : market segment that can arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder.
: :
: : No. You should take a trip to a local camera store, and try a Sony slt
: : a77. The EVF is fantastic, and IIRC, battery life allows up to 1,000
: : shots per charge. (of course the EVF is still going to chew through much
: : more battery than a dslr)
:
: The a77 has a 12fps EVF, which is too slow for a serious camera.
:
: IIRC, the VF is actually 60fps refresh.
: I would never own a Sony camera, so if you're assuming that I'm shilling
: for Sony, I'm definitely not. But as I said, you should visit a camera
: store and look at the SLT a77 EVF (or SLT a65 - I think that has the
: same EVF as the a77). It destroyed many of my reservations about EVFs
: being ready to take over from OVFs. There is still some noticeable
: latency/lag with the a77, and by all accounts, the Sony AF system isn't
: a patch on Canon/Nikon dslr wrt focus tracking, at least on models above
: entry-point.
: The 12fps you refer to is the maximum burst rate.

Maybe so. There is a comma after "12fps" that I didn't see before.

: You are perhaps confused by the fact that during burst shooting, the
: 60fps feed to the EVF cannot be maintained, and IIRC the EVF displays a
: sequence of still images - which may be a bit disconcerting, but
: /almost/ the same applies to DSLRs at high burst rate, with OVF blackout
: between frames, and where you'll be paying a big premium for models
: (Nikon D3/4, Canon 1d etc) with reduced blackout time.
:
: : Secondly, the EOS-M has a rear LCD, which probably uses /more/ battery
: : power than an EVF.
:
: Irrelevant. You have to have that anyway.
:
: What?
: This was my point, if you have to have it, then better that it uses less
: power (like an EVF) than a large rear LCD!

When's the last time you saw a digital camera without a rear LCD, regardless
of what other kind of viewfinder it did or didn't have?

Bob

Check that wonderful piece of digital imaging technology, the GoPro,
which comes with no view finder option, ...er make that no VF of any
type.
http://gopro.com/


--
Regards,

Savageduck

"Robert Coe" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:43:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: This was my point, if you have to have it, then better that it uses less
: power (like an EVF) than a large rear LCD!

When's the last time you saw a digital camera without a rear LCD,
regardless
of what other kind of viewfinder it did or didn't have?

No need to run a rear LCD permanently if you have an OVF/EVF though, you
only need turn it on *if* you want to review. I cant see any reason why a
EVF camera should use more power than a rear LCD only camera when used
properly. Both will use more power than a OVF camera though.

Trevor.

Robert Coe wrote in
:

A number of people, some of whom should know better, have been dissing
the new Canon M for not having some or all of the features of a
professional or semi-professional DSLR. I think we should be careful
not to let their disappointment distract us from what has actually
happened here. Which is that Canon, before any of its competitors, has
begun a line of mirrorless cameras capable of evolving, with body
enhancements only, into a putative replacement for some of its serious
cameras (in their case, the 7D and ultimately, with a FF sensor, the
5D as well). The keys to that are the 18MP APS-C sensor and the
provision for use of Canon's existing lens inventory.

So if that evolution can happen, why didn't it? (After all, several
manufacturers have already shown that mirrorless technology does
work.) Because today a processor fast enough to drive the necessary
high-resolution EVF would be too inefficient for the job; i.e., it
would run too hot and go through batteries too fast. It's no
coincidence that the M is targeted for a market segment that can
arguably do without an eye-level viewfinder. But that doesn't mean
that Canon isn't actually aiming higher. Future processors will be
more efficient; future batteries will be more powerful; and a larger
camera can be a more effective heat sink. Meanwhile, the M serves as a
prototype that should allow Canon to perfect its new autofocus system
and other new features a high-end mirrorless camera will need.

I can only hope that those future cameras start to appear before I'm
too old and feeble to use one. ;^)

Bob


I thought when I first saw it (and even now) that it was a poor
photoshopping, because of that weird indent for the shutter button. It's
not a very attractive camera, but if people really do want a simplified
mirrorless camera and don't mind going deep into menus to access basic
functions, this thing will sell.

On 2012-07-24 21:43 , Trevor wrote:
"Robert Coe" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:43:32 +1200, Me wrote:
: This was my point, if you have to have it, then better that it uses less
: power (like an EVF) than a large rear LCD!

When's the last time you saw a digital camera without a rear LCD,
regardless
of what other kind of viewfinder it did or didn't have?

No need to run a rear LCD permanently if you have an OVF/EVF though, you
only need turn it on *if* you want to review. I cant see any reason why a

Do any of the EVF's allow review using the EVF's? I can go long periods
with my eye in the VF while operating controls. Quick reviews there
would be handy.


--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.