Cibachrome vs Fuji crystal archive revisited

A couple of years ago there was an interesting thread in this group
about the relative merits of Cibachrome versus Fuji Crystal. I
recently submitted one 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ slide to a local photo lab to have
both an Ilfochrome and a Lightjet 5000/Fuji Crystal Archive 16 x 24
inch print made for comparison. There was no comparison. The Fuji
Crystal Archive was less sharp than the Ilfochrome. The Fuji Crystal
Archive colors lacked the lacked the luster of the Ilfrachrome which
accurately reproduced the brilliance of the original colors.

I understand that Ilfochrome is no longer making the paper and
chemicals for the former Cibachrome process. Is this true? Anyway my
experience suggests that, despite what I read, I am yet to be
convinced that Lightjet 5000 prints on Fuji Crystal Archive equals the
quality of Ilfochrome.

It could of course be that an element in the digital train at the lab
was not accurately calibrated (they did the scans) but I wonder what
the recent experience of others have been.

Ifan

Ifan wrote:


I understand that Ilfochrome is no longer making the paper and
chemicals for the former Cibachrome process. Is this true? Anyway my


To the best of my knowledge all they did was change the name.

Nick

Ifan wrote:


I understand that Ilfochrome is no longer making the paper and
chemicals for the former Cibachrome process. Is this true? Anyway my


To the best of my knowledge all they did was change the name.

Nick

The reason the quality does not match is you are comparing Apples to
Oranges. Fuji Crystal paper is designed for Negative film Process type RA 4

The lab that did your work either made a copy neg of the slide or digital
scan than exposed the paper causing additional reduction in quality.

Slide image on RA-4 Paper

Original image(Slide) First Generation
Copy neg (Second Generation)
Expose image on Type RA-4 Paper (Third Generation)

Slide on Cibachrome or Type R paper

Original image(Slide) First Generation
Expose image on Type R paper 2nd Generation

Each Generation results in Loss of Quality.

If they use a digital process the quality would be better than a copy
negative but probably not as good as the Type R product.


http://www.horvath.ca/final/cibachrome.html

http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epa...roduct=7427156

Hope this answers your questions

Gary



"Ifan" wrote in message
om...
A couple of years ago there was an interesting thread in this group
about the relative merits of Cibachrome versus Fuji Crystal. I
recently submitted one 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ slide to a local photo lab to have
both an Ilfochrome and a Lightjet 5000/Fuji Crystal Archive 16 x 24
inch print made for comparison. There was no comparison. The Fuji
Crystal Archive was less sharp than the Ilfochrome. The Fuji Crystal
Archive colors lacked the lacked the luster of the Ilfrachrome which
accurately reproduced the brilliance of the original colors.

I understand that Ilfochrome is no longer making the paper and
chemicals for the former Cibachrome process. Is this true? Anyway my
experience suggests that, despite what I read, I am yet to be
convinced that Lightjet 5000 prints on Fuji Crystal Archive equals the
quality of Ilfochrome.

It could of course be that an element in the digital train at the lab
was not accurately calibrated (they did the scans) but I wonder what
the recent experience of others have been.

Ifan

"Photobossman" wrote in message
news:LcU0d.30784$9Y5.22882@fed1read02...

Original image(Slide) First Generation
Copy neg (Second Generation)
Expose image on Type RA-4 Paper (Third Generation)



Are you sure of this? I understood that a Lightspeed digitized the source
for printing. There is no need for an internegative.

"Ifan" wrote in message
om...

The biggest reason Ilfochrome prints will have more saturated, clearer,
truer colors with a higher level of apparent sharpness (due to increased
contrast) is the use of Azo dyes in the material. Only Ilfochrome
(Cibachrome) uses Azo dyes in it's color process.

Not all slide materials print well on Ilfochrome due to color crossover
issues. A good operator can fix much of this, but it takes time and effort.
Contrast can be controlled with masks, but again, time and effort. Making
Ilfochrome prints is time consuming and costly. I fear, because of this,
it's days are limited.

Photobossman is correct in many regards. The comparison of an Ilfochrome to
a print from a RA-4 process is wholly unfair and inconclusive.

Paper and chemicals are still being made to the best of my knowledge. I
believe it's the last direct positive print material being made since Kodak
stopped making it's R-3 process and papers (not sure if Fuji is still
producing positive print material). Ilford in England is in the equivalent
of Chapter 11 right now (under administration), but it has not stopped any
productions lines - yet. The 'Chrome' plant is in Switzerland and a
subsidiary of Ilford.

Jim

Paper and chemicals are still being made to the best of my knowledge. I
believe it's the last direct positive print material being made since Kodak
stopped making it's R-3 process and papers (not sure if Fuji is still
producing positive print material). Ilford in England is in the equivalent
of Chapter 11 right now (under administration), but it has not stopped any
productions lines - yet. The 'Chrome' plant is in Switzerland and a
subsidiary of Ilford.

Jim

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Two follow up questions:

1. The only lab printing Cibachrome/Ilfochrome in Albuquerque - the
nearest to me in New Mexico - has recently closed. If Ilfochrome
printing is still available has anyone any suggestions as to the best
place to obtain Ilfochrome prints?

2. What are the other alternatives for getting exhibition quality
color prints from 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ and 35mm color transparencies?

Ifan

On 2004-09-12 16:17:57 -0400, (Ifan) said:

Paper and chemicals are still being made to the best of my knowledge.
I believe it's the last direct positive print material being made since
Kodak stopped making it's R-3 process and papers (not sure if Fuji is
still producing positive print material). Ilford in England is in the
equivalent of Chapter 11 right now (under administration), but it has
not stopped any productions lines - yet. The 'Chrome' plant is in
Switzerland and a subsidiary of Ilford.

Jim

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Two follow up questions:

1. The only lab printing Cibachrome/Ilfochrome in Albuquerque - the
nearest to me in New Mexico - has recently closed. If Ilfochrome
printing is still available has anyone any suggestions as to the best
place to obtain Ilfochrome prints?

2. What are the other alternatives for getting exhibition quality
color prints from 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ and 35mm color transparencies?

Ifan


Try Holland Photo: http://www.hollandphoto.com/index2.htm
You'll have to do it by mail because they are in Austin Texas. They do
very fine Ilfochromes including the use of silver masks for high
contrast slides. This is a quote from their website:

Making fine prints from slides has been Holland Photo's specialty since
1981. Our choice as a medium is the Ilfochrome Process.
(Formerly called Cibachrome)

Hope this helps.

--
Michael | "You're going to need a bigger boat."

There are a number of reasons why Labs have stopped processing Type R as
well as K-14

The chemicals are expensive.
Maintaining Quality control Expensive.
Volume of the products dropping.
Environmental issues these chemistries are not very kind to the environment.

Gary




"Michael Weinstein" wrote in message
news:2004091220002116807%notreallymeNOSPAM@ixnetco mcom...
On 2004-09-12 16:17:57 -0400, (Ifan) said:

Paper and chemicals are still being made to the best of my knowledge. I
believe it's the last direct positive print material being made since
Kodak stopped making it's R-3 process and papers (not sure if Fuji is
still producing positive print material). Ilford in England is in the
equivalent of Chapter 11 right now (under administration), but it has
not stopped any productions lines - yet. The 'Chrome' plant is in
Switzerland and a subsidiary of Ilford.

Jim

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Two follow up questions:

1. The only lab printing Cibachrome/Ilfochrome in Albuquerque - the
nearest to me in New Mexico - has recently closed. If Ilfochrome
printing is still available has anyone any suggestions as to the best
place to obtain Ilfochrome prints?

2. What are the other alternatives for getting exhibition quality
color prints from 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ and 35mm color transparencies?

Ifan


Try Holland Photo: http://www.hollandphoto.com/index2.htm
You'll have to do it by mail because they are in Austin Texas. They do
very fine Ilfochromes including the use of silver masks for high contrast
slides. This is a quote from their website:

Making fine prints from slides has been Holland Photo's specialty since
1981. Our choice as a medium is the Ilfochrome Process.
(Formerly called Cibachrome)

Hope this helps.

--
Michael | "You're going to need a bigger boat."

.... And another thing has just occured to me ... following up on the
comment by Jim Phelps. If a digital file was produced by scanning the
slide, should not the Fuji Crystal archive print have been of an equal
quality?

Ifan