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DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 16th 07, 12:14 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Helmsman3
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Posts: 19
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On 15 Nov 2007 09:03:18 -0800, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Arguments over relative merits of DSLR vs P&S digicams
occupy a plurality of current traffic volume on r.p.d.

In many ways it reminds me of the film vs digital debate
of the last many years.

DSLR partisans seem like the defenders of film, because
they don't have a lot of firm evidence that their workflow
is superior, except at high ISO or some arcane usage.

I know DSLRs are selling well, but do these flame wars
indicate the beginning of the end?


Pretty much.

Let us for a moment presume there is a sealed-lens/sensor design that doesn't
allow in any dust. Takes images in absolute silence. The lens range is a full
180-degree fish-eye to an extremely long zoom, all with either an aperture or
sensor ISO high enough to capture even the most difficult of hand-held
situations in any settings. The body is of a titanium shell for extreme
durability. Few moving parts allows operation in deep sub-zero environments. Let
us also presume that the electronic viewfinder (LCD and EVF) is high resolution
enough that its display, feedback, and articulation abilities far exceed
anything that has been implemented so far, optically or otherwise. Lets also
presume that these P&S camera designers also had the foresight to include the
options of shooting in the IR and UV portions of the spectrum too. This of
course is dependent on an EVF system because no optical viewfinder in the world
can accomplish this. Oh what the heck, while we're at it throw in high quality
video and CD quality stereo sound recording too so you don't even need your
camcorder as an accessory anymore. Why not.

Poof! There goes any need for the cumbersome lens interchangeability, size,
weight, noise, dust, high-cost, focal-plane shutter limitations, inaccurate and
dim OVF, and all the other drawbacks to using any DSLR.

Surprisingly I've already found all of these conditions met in only 2 P&S
cameras (minus the UV capability and a slightly higher resolution EVF) with only
2 inexpensive, small, and light-weight adapter lenses. I've already had
thousands of photos published with this combo. Not one person yet can tell that
they were done with P&S gear. A whole kit of 1 camera + 2 lenses fitting into
one large pocket. If these two P&S camera's features were combined nobody would
think twice about buying a DSLR. I certainly never do.

So yes, the advancements of the P&S camera are definitely the death-knell to the
DSLR. Why would anyone need lens interchangeability if all those ranges,
precision, and capability were built into one dust-free sealed lens? Nobody
thought that an 18x high-quality zoom lens was even conceivable just a short 5
years ago. It's just foolish to duplicate in many parts what can be accomplished
with just one. Speaking of all-in-1 options, CHDK is clear proof of that. You
can do all the same things, and even more than, what was one time only possible
by tethering your camera to a bulky and energy-hog computer. Now you don't even
need the expense, bulk, travel limitations, and power-requirements of a computer
if your camera can run CHDK.

Lens interchangeability and the high-ISO performance are the *only* two thing to
which the DSLR advocates are still tentatively holding onto. And at what cost?
Dust problems? Noise? Camera shake from the mirror and shutter? Slow mechanical
shutter limitations? Bulk? Weight? Do I need to list all the drawbacks?

Ultra-zoom lenses are already making one of those "benefits"(?) obsolete. They
are grasping at straws now trying to hold onto the high-ISO performance. When
it's already been clearly shown that if your long-zoom P&S lens has enough
aperture then even that is not the holy-grail to owning a DSLR.

Yes, the DSLR *IS* going bye-bye. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of
"when". And to my findings the sooner the better. They're a waste of time, cost,
weight, materials, research, and labor. Based on a design that is half a century
old with all the same limitations that were inherent in that format from way
back then. The only ones still clamoring to wanting a DSLR appear to be those
more bent on status, peer pressure, and acceptance by those around them than
actually wanting to increase their chances at getting a decent photo. You know,
the ones who are still emotionally insecure, the ones that have to run with the
mindless herd for fear of getting lost.

The DSLR will have about the same fondness in 15 years as we do when looking
back on the flash-cube Instamatic from the late 60's with all its inherent
faults, drawbacks, and limitations. The phrase "I can't believe we put up with
those DSLRs back then," will be commonly heard.

  #2  
Old November 16th 07, 03:43 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Neil Harrington[_2_]
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Posts: 699
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?


"Helmsman3" wrote in message
...
On 15 Nov 2007 09:03:18 -0800, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Arguments over relative merits of DSLR vs P&S digicams
occupy a plurality of current traffic volume on r.p.d.

In many ways it reminds me of the film vs digital debate
of the last many years.

DSLR partisans seem like the defenders of film, because
they don't have a lot of firm evidence that their workflow
is superior, except at high ISO or some arcane usage.

I know DSLRs are selling well, but do these flame wars
indicate the beginning of the end?


Pretty much.

Let us for a moment presume there is a sealed-lens/sensor design that
doesn't
allow in any dust. Takes images in absolute silence. The lens range is a
full
180-degree fish-eye to an extremely long zoom, all with either an aperture
or
sensor ISO high enough to capture even the most difficult of hand-held
situations in any settings.


Pie in the sky. You will never see such a lens.


The body is of a titanium shell for extreme
durability. Few moving parts allows operation in deep sub-zero
environments. Let
us also presume that the electronic viewfinder (LCD and EVF) is high
resolution
enough that its display, feedback, and articulation abilities far exceed
anything that has been implemented so far, optically or otherwise. Lets
also
presume that these P&S camera designers also had the foresight to include
the
options of shooting in the IR and UV portions of the spectrum too. This of
course is dependent on an EVF system because no optical viewfinder in the
world
can accomplish this. Oh what the heck, while we're at it throw in high
quality
video and CD quality stereo sound recording too so you don't even need
your
camcorder as an accessory anymore. Why not.


Why not indeed. Why not "while we're at it" put flapping wings on the thing
as well, so it can just fly out the window and take pictures on its own,
without intruding on your daydreams?


Poof! There goes any need for the cumbersome lens interchangeability,
size,
weight, noise, dust, high-cost, focal-plane shutter limitations,
inaccurate and
dim OVF, and all the other drawbacks to using any DSLR.

Surprisingly I've already found all of these conditions met in only 2 P&S
cameras (minus the UV capability and a slightly higher resolution EVF)
with only
2 inexpensive, small, and light-weight adapter lenses. I've already had
thousands of photos published with this combo. Not one person yet can tell
that
they were done with P&S gear. A whole kit of 1 camera + 2 lenses fitting
into
one large pocket. If these two P&S camera's features were combined nobody
would
think twice about buying a DSLR. I certainly never do.


guffaw!

Please stop. You're getting coffee on my monitor screen.


So yes, the advancements of the P&S camera are definitely the death-knell
to the
DSLR. [ . . . ]


I'm afraid you have it all bass-ackwards. DSLRs have come down in price to
the point that they are pushing high-end compact cameras (I despise the
silly term "P&S") completely out of the market.

I'm sorry to see the "prosumer" level compacts go, but going they are. I
still love my Nikon Coolpix 8400 and 8800, and they will in fact do some
things that my DSLRs will not. But much as I love 'em, they cannot compare
with my Nikon D80 or even my entry-level D40 as far as overall capability is
concerned. It's unlikely we will ever again see Nikon make a camera like the
8800. DSLRs are where it's at, as the saying goes, and will only continue to
gain ascendancy over the remaining compacts.

It's analogous to the SLR vs. RF situation in the 1950s. In those days most
people bought rangefinder cameras because they couldn't afford SLRs, of
which there were relatively few anyway. But within a decade or so the SLR
was killing the RF in the marketplace as far as buyers serious about
photography were concerned. Sure, they still kept making RFs, and some nice
ones too, and when auto-everything came along the little cameras got a new
lease on life -- but they had by then given up even trying to compete with
SLRs as far as serious stuff went. And they never again became competitive
at the higher level.

So it is with digital. They'll keep making compacts (and I love 'em, I'll
keep buying 'em along with DSLRs) but except for the occasional niche
camera, which by definition will be of extremely limited appeal, compact
cameras just aren't going to be taken as seriously as they used to be. What
you'll see in the coming years will be the continued migration of
manufacturers currently making high-end compacts, to making DSLRs.

Neil


  #3  
Old November 16th 07, 09:13 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
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Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:43:11 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:

"Helmsman3" wrote in message
.. .


So yes, the advancements of the P&S camera are definitely the death-knell
to the
DSLR. [ . . . ]


I'm afraid you have it all bass-ackwards. DSLRs have come down in price to
the point that they are pushing high-end compact cameras (I despise the
silly term "P&S") completely out of the market.

I'm sorry to see the "prosumer" level compacts go, but going they are. ...


Don't look now, but "prosumer" level compacts by Panasonic equipped with
superb Leica lenses are going strong.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
  #4  
Old November 16th 07, 09:22 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Grumpy AuContraire
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Posts: 35
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?



John Navas wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:43:11 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:


"Helmsman3" wrote in message
. ..



So yes, the advancements of the P&S camera are definitely the death-knell
to the
DSLR. [ . . . ]


I'm afraid you have it all bass-ackwards. DSLRs have come down in price to
the point that they are pushing high-end compact cameras (I despise the
silly term "P&S") completely out of the market.

I'm sorry to see the "prosumer" level compacts go, but going they are. ...



Don't look now, but "prosumer" level compacts by Panasonic equipped with
superb Leica lenses are going strong.




Yes, I have a FZ10 which has served me well for the past three years.
Eventually, I will replace it but not until the capture ccd(s) are bigger.

Meanwhile, I'll use the FZ for routine photography and my old Leica M2
for real serious work...

JT

  #5  
Old November 16th 07, 09:26 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Peter Chant[_2_]
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Posts: 203
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

Neil Harrington wrote:


So it is with digital. They'll keep making compacts (and I love 'em, I'll
keep buying 'em along with DSLRs) but except for the occasional niche
camera, which by definition will be of extremely limited appeal, compact
cameras just aren't going to be taken as seriously as they used to be.
What you'll see in the coming years will be the continued migration of
manufacturers currently making high-end compacts, to making DSLRs.


Good points, I've not made the jump yet (ignoring camera phones), a nice
compact digital camera, that works like a proper camera would be nice,
possibly thinking of Ricoh GR-D or probally more useful GX100, however an
SLR would offer more, except the pocketableness. Price difference between
the Pentax K10D and those two compacts is not much.

If I buy one the K10D makes more sense.

Pete

--
http://www.petezilla.co.uk
  #6  
Old November 16th 07, 10:19 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Neil Harrington[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?


"John Navas" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:43:11 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:

"Helmsman3" wrote in message
. ..


So yes, the advancements of the P&S camera are definitely the
death-knell
to the
DSLR. [ . . . ]


I'm afraid you have it all bass-ackwards. DSLRs have come down in price to
the point that they are pushing high-end compact cameras (I despise the
silly term "P&S") completely out of the market.

I'm sorry to see the "prosumer" level compacts go, but going they are. ...


Don't look now, but "prosumer" level compacts by Panasonic equipped with
superb Leica lenses are going strong.


I'm glad to hear it. Panasonic does make an excellent product. I've had an
FZ15 for a few years now and I agree, the Leica lens (probably should be
"Leica" in quotes, but still) is excellent. On my model it's 35-420mm
(equiv.) stabilized and f/2.8 *all the way* which is very nice indeed.

Still, there's only so much you can do with that small CCD, and the very
best EVF you can get is no joy compared to a real mirror reflex viewinder.
These I think are the chief shortcomings of the "prosumer" compact compared
to a DSLR.

Neil

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)



  #7  
Old November 16th 07, 10:32 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
GeraldG.
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Posts: 4
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:43:11 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote:


"Helmsman3" wrote in message
.. .
On 15 Nov 2007 09:03:18 -0800, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Arguments over relative merits of DSLR vs P&S digicams
occupy a plurality of current traffic volume on r.p.d.

In many ways it reminds me of the film vs digital debate
of the last many years.

DSLR partisans seem like the defenders of film, because
they don't have a lot of firm evidence that their workflow
is superior, except at high ISO or some arcane usage.

I know DSLRs are selling well, but do these flame wars
indicate the beginning of the end?


Pretty much.

Let us for a moment presume there is a sealed-lens/sensor design that
doesn't
allow in any dust. Takes images in absolute silence. The lens range is a
full
180-degree fish-eye to an extremely long zoom, all with either an aperture
or
sensor ISO high enough to capture even the most difficult of hand-held
situations in any settings.


Pie in the sky. You will never see such a lens.


The body is of a titanium shell for extreme
durability. Few moving parts allows operation in deep sub-zero
environments. Let
us also presume that the electronic viewfinder (LCD and EVF) is high
resolution
enough that its display, feedback, and articulation abilities far exceed
anything that has been implemented so far, optically or otherwise. Lets
also
presume that these P&S camera designers also had the foresight to include
the
options of shooting in the IR and UV portions of the spectrum too. This of
course is dependent on an EVF system because no optical viewfinder in the
world
can accomplish this. Oh what the heck, while we're at it throw in high
quality
video and CD quality stereo sound recording too so you don't even need
your
camcorder as an accessory anymore. Why not.


Why not indeed. Why not "while we're at it" put flapping wings on the thing
as well, so it can just fly out the window and take pictures on its own,
without intruding on your daydreams?


Poof! There goes any need for the cumbersome lens interchangeability,
size,
weight, noise, dust, high-cost, focal-plane shutter limitations,
inaccurate and
dim OVF, and all the other drawbacks to using any DSLR.

Surprisingly I've already found all of these conditions met in only 2 P&S
cameras (minus the UV capability and a slightly higher resolution EVF)
with only
2 inexpensive, small, and light-weight adapter lenses. I've already had
thousands of photos published with this combo. Not one person yet can tell
that
they were done with P&S gear. A whole kit of 1 camera + 2 lenses fitting
into
one large pocket. If these two P&S camera's features were combined nobody
would
think twice about buying a DSLR. I certainly never do.


guffaw!

Please stop. You're getting coffee on my monitor screen.


"You can't blow the dust away without making a lot of fools cough." - Prince
Philip Duke of Edinburgh
  #8  
Old November 16th 07, 10:45 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:19:28 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:

"John Navas" wrote in message
.. .


Don't look now, but "prosumer" level compacts by Panasonic equipped with
superb Leica lenses are going strong.


I'm glad to hear it. Panasonic does make an excellent product. I've had an
FZ15 for a few years now and I agree, the Leica lens (probably should be
"Leica" in quotes, but still) is excellent. On my model it's 35-420mm
(equiv.) stabilized and f/2.8 *all the way* which is very nice indeed.


Since the lens is designed by Leica and built to Leica standards, I'd
personally say it's a Leica (without quotes).

Still, there's only so much you can do with that small CCD, and the very
best EVF you can get is no joy compared to a real mirror reflex viewinder.
These I think are the chief shortcomings of the "prosumer" compact compared
to a DSLR.


Current EVF have gotten very good, and can now do things that can't be
done with an optical viewfinder, including 100% image, visible image in
very low light, and magnification while focusing, not to mention image
replay.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
  #9  
Old November 16th 07, 11:03 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
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Posts: 369
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

Neil Harrington wrote:

I'm glad to hear it. Panasonic does make an excellent product.


Panasonic consistently excels in the "features" department. Where it
always falls apart for Panasonic is in noise. You can shoot at ISO 100
pretty well (though some reviewers complain about the noise even at ISO
100).

It all comes down to the sensor and the over-aggressive noise reduction
that is Panasonic's forte.
  #10  
Old November 16th 07, 11:12 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:03:08 -0800, SMS ??? ?
wrote in
:

Neil Harrington wrote:

I'm glad to hear it. Panasonic does make an excellent product.


Panasonic consistently excels in the "features" department. Where it
always falls apart for Panasonic is in noise. You can shoot at ISO 100
pretty well (though some reviewers complain about the noise even at ISO
100).


Painfully obvious that you have no first-hand experience, and thus no
real idea what you're talking about.

It all comes down to the sensor and the over-aggressive noise reduction
that is Panasonic's forte.


There's nothing wrong with the sensor, which is current state of the
art, and the noise reduction can be turned down (or even off with RAW)
if you don't like it.

Get some real experience so you'll hopefully not make yourself look so
foolish.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 




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