Student camera

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:00:27 +0200, Roxy Durban wrote:



How many people who have auto-focus cameras with AE actually use them in
manual mode? I don't know any.

I know several people with autofocus camera. I asked all of them how
often they shoot in manual and the answer is never...


--
Colyn Goodson
http://home.swbell.net/colyng
http://www.colyngoodson.com

in message ,
wrote Roxy Durban ...

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:40:12 -0800, Siddhartha Jain wrote:

How many people who have auto-focus cameras with AE actually use them in
manual mode? I don't know any.

I do sometimes, mostly on days when i am shooting more than ~4
frames; otherwise the camera, Minolta XTsi, remains in AE mode.


- parv

--
As nice it is to receive personal mail, too much sweetness causes
tooth decay. Unless you have burning desire to contact me, do not do
away w/ WhereElse in the address for private communication.

"Siddhartha Jain" wrote in message
oups.com...
Duncan J Murray wrote:
You have a point, but there is symbolic significance in buying a
fully
manual camera, which psychologically might be more beneficicial for
some
people learning. A bit like learning to ski by being pushed down a
blue
slope - it's going to be painful, but you're going to learn quickly!

I would've agreed with you when I was new to my SLR. Initially, I would
always shoot in the "A" mode with my Canon 300D. I would set it to "M"
before a shoot and quickly go back to "A" when I found the going
difficult. But over the last two months, I have gotten rid of the "A"
mode completely as I have become more and more comfortable with the
controls. Now my camera stays in the "M" mode and rarely even comes to
"Tv" or "Av" or "P" even. I wouldn't dare to say I've mastered it but I
can safely say that I don't fear ruining shots and don't turn to "A"
for *saving* them. But, I agree, your mileage may vary.

- Siddhartha


That's what happened to me, but then I found myself going back to A mode.
Rarely do I second guess my Nikon meter, so my M mode settings end up being
the same as my A mode settings, only I have to work twice as hard to get
them. In A mode, when I do want something other than what the meter
suggests, I simply dial in a little exposure compensation.

--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

"ColynG©" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:00:27 +0200, Roxy Durban wrote:



How many people who have auto-focus cameras with AE actually use them in
manual mode? I don't know any.

I know several people with autofocus camera. I asked all of them how
often they shoot in manual and the answer is never...

I shoot my F5 in manual mode whenever I am using a lens that demands it.
Since I like to buy old lenses, and also use reversing rings on some of my
newer ones, I use manual mode fairly often. - I certainly wouldn't want any
camera that didn't have such a mode available.......

"Siddhartha Jain" wrote:

I would've agreed with you when I was new to my SLR. Initially, I would
always shoot in the "A" mode with my Canon 300D. I would set it to "M"
before a shoot and quickly go back to "A" when I found the going
difficult. But over the last two months, I have gotten rid of the "A"
mode completely as I have become more and more comfortable with the
controls. Now my camera stays in the "M" mode and rarely even comes to
"Tv" or "Av" or "P" even. I wouldn't dare to say I've mastered it but I
can safely say that I don't fear ruining shots and don't turn to "A"
for *saving* them. But, I agree, your mileage may vary.

Say what...?

Come on, guys. It's just an aperture and a shutter speed here. And
choosing an appropriate setting manually for each does not involve anything
more difficult than a mere moment of mental effort. P, Tv, A, Av, M??
Sounds to me more like particle physics than a simple exposure setting.

To wit...

Earlier this afternoon I went out with my beloved, like-new (albeit, c.
1949) Kodak Brownie Hawkeye box camera:

http://www.geh.org/fm/brownie/htmlsr...tml#topofimage

It has only a single, permanent, uncoated meniscus glass lens...
It has only a single, permanent aperture of f/22 (or so)...
It has only a single, permanent shutter speed of 1/50 sec (or so)...
It has no programmed exposure modes...
It has no auto focus...
It has no auto wind or rewind...
It has no auto film speed detection...
It has no meter...
It has no direct filter capability...
It has no self-timer...
It has no flash sync other than a manual, open-shutter bulb setting...
It even has no tripod socket for use with that bulb setting...
Exposure control is achieved by choosing film speed to match conditions...
Then simply using your eyes and experience to judge those conditions...

And yet, after a simple, home-brew CLA performed by me...

It makes wonderful, full scale images on B&W 120 roll film...
It makes wonderful, full-scale flash images with a handheld light source...
It is a pure joy to work with...

The greatest limitation in using this camera is the same limitation for all
cameras. Where do I place my feet and when do I press my finger.

Intending no disrespect to anyone, but nevertheless perplexed at such simple
things turned inexplicably and horrendously complex,

Ken

"Ken Nadvornick" wrote in message
news:cdWPd.18602$uc.512@trnddc05...
"Siddhartha Jain" wrote:

I would've agreed with you when I was new to my SLR. Initially, I would
always shoot in the "A" mode with my Canon 300D. I would set it to "M"
before a shoot and quickly go back to "A" when I found the going
difficult. But over the last two months, I have gotten rid of the "A"
mode completely as I have become more and more comfortable with the
controls. Now my camera stays in the "M" mode and rarely even comes to
"Tv" or "Av" or "P" even. I wouldn't dare to say I've mastered it but I
can safely say that I don't fear ruining shots and don't turn to "A"
for *saving* them. But, I agree, your mileage may vary.

Say what...?

Come on, guys. It's just an aperture and a shutter speed here. And
choosing an appropriate setting manually for each does not involve
anything
more difficult than a mere moment of mental effort. P, Tv, A, Av, M??
Sounds to me more like particle physics than a simple exposure setting.

To wit...

Earlier this afternoon I went out with my beloved, like-new (albeit, c.
1949) Kodak Brownie Hawkeye box camera:

http://www.geh.org/fm/brownie/htmlsr...tml#topofimage

It has only a single, permanent, uncoated meniscus glass lens...
It has only a single, permanent aperture of f/22 (or so)...
It has only a single, permanent shutter speed of 1/50 sec (or so)...
It has no programmed exposure modes...
It has no auto focus...
It has no auto wind or rewind...
It has no auto film speed detection...
It has no meter...
It has no direct filter capability...
It has no self-timer...
It has no flash sync other than a manual, open-shutter bulb setting...
It even has no tripod socket for use with that bulb setting...
Exposure control is achieved by choosing film speed to match conditions...
Then simply using your eyes and experience to judge those conditions...

And yet, after a simple, home-brew CLA performed by me...

It makes wonderful, full scale images on B&W 120 roll film...
It makes wonderful, full-scale flash images with a handheld light
source...
It is a pure joy to work with...

The greatest limitation in using this camera is the same limitation for
all
cameras. Where do I place my feet and when do I press my finger.

Intending no disrespect to anyone, but nevertheless perplexed at such
simple
things turned inexplicably and horrendously complex,

Ken


Yes. - Actually, my camera has no manual mode. It says, "manual", but it
still gives me a match-needle type display, so I know when I am choosing a
speed/aperture combination that the camera's light meter disapproves of. In
fact, the only way to take pictures in manual mode today is to buy a 30+
year old camera, or find one that will still operate with no batteries and
therefore, no meter.....

Roxy Durban wrote:
I have advocated a similar opinion in the past, but lately I am
re-thinking that opinion.

How many people who have auto-focus cameras with AE actually use them
in
manual mode? I don't know any.

I care a rodent's behind what other people do with their cameras. If
people don't use their auto-everything cameras in manual mode then that
is their problem entirely. They are consciously choosing to close an
option that the manufacturer of the SLR provided them with.

As someone pointed out, the difference between a snapshooter and
photographer is control over DoF and thats something the most
intelligent camera won't be able to judge so thats something you have
to still control by manually setting aperture.

So if you've been using your camera in "A" mode all the time then
instill some discipline in yourself for the sake of the nice equipment
you've bought!! And set that brain of yours working!! ;-)

- Siddhartha

"ColynG©" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:00:27 +0200, Roxy Durban wrote:



How many people who have auto-focus cameras with AE actually use them in
manual mode? I don't know any.

I know several people with autofocus camera. I asked all of them how
often they shoot in manual and the answer is never...
I have both MF and AF cameras - the AF cameras are good for quick snapshot
stuff, but anytime I am doing something serious with it, I switch AF off and
work with MF - the reason? MF is faster - If I press the shutter I don't
have to wait for it to lock focus (and hope that it does lock focus), in MF
mode it takes the photo when I press the button. Especially if I'm
photographing moving subjects, I can track focus far quicker than an AF
camera. Whenever I'm doing something serious, I also set the camera into
either Aperture Priority (usually) or occasionally full manual, or very
occasionally shutter priority.
I usually have 3 bodies loaded with different types of film simultaneously,
so i jump from a fully manual body, to an aperture priority body, to a full
auto body regularly.


--
Colyn Goodson
http://home.swbell.net/colyng
http://www.colyngoodson.com

"Siddhartha Jain" wrote in message

As someone pointed out, the difference between a snapshooter and
photographer is control over DoF and thats something the most
intelligent camera won't be able to judge so thats something you have
to still control by manually setting aperture.



Look, 35mm is a mixed bag, and has been for some time.

A significant percentage of people that stroll around with cameras hanging
from their necks are NOT photographers with any merit--they just want to
look cool.

Another significant percentage of 35mm users are casual photographers, that
want to take some "good pictures," and who have no interest in reading up on
the subject. They NEED automatic cameras. And they care little about DOF
or composition or perspective.

The primary use for automation, for the knowledgeable photographer, is to
enable taking fast action shots, where there is little or no time to focus,
set aperture and set shutter speed. If you remember back to the old days,
photographers often had their subjects pose--primarily because the film and
equipment of the day did not accommodate taking candid shots. For those of
us that shoot static subjects, like landscapes, automation offers no
advantages.

I learned on a manual camera--a Yashica Model A TLR, that I still own after
over 4 decades. I cannot imagine "learning" using an automatic camera.
Maybe it is just something outside my comfort zone.

I flirted with a Pentax P3n with program mode awhile back, and I felt much
more comfortable with my Spotmatics. If it weren't for the fact that my
TLRs have fixed lenses I'd probably stick with medium format--the handheld
meter is no problem at all.

I have a digicam, with the standard 38-115 zoom lens, autofocus, auto
everything, and it gives me absolutely no satisfaction. Only good thing is
the ability to see the image right away. There is absolutely no feeling of
gratification when actually shooting--unlike the feeling one gets when
handling well-made old metal equipment.

It is unfortunate that today's students do not have ready access to the fine
manual equipment that many of us owned and used.

Siddhartha Jain wrote:

As someone pointed out, the difference between a snapshooter and
photographer is control over DoF and thats something the most
intelligent camera won't be able to judge so thats something you have
to still control by manually setting aperture.

That's the preferred way. Some get by with P mode and program shift. Comes to
the same thing: You point, the camera selects S/A, you shift the Aperture and
the S takes care of itself.


So if you've been using your camera in "A" mode all the time then
instill some discipline in yourself for the sake of the nice equipment
you've bought!! And set that brain of yours working!! ;-)

For a few years I shot mainly A mode. Now I'm rarely out of M mode and almost
always using the spot meter or an incident meter.

Cheers,
Alan


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.