A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » Digital Photography » Digital Photography
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

A question for Applefans



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 11th 15, 04:02 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default A question for Applefans

On 09/09/2015 02:58, Tony Cooper wrote:
My iPhone and iPad are charged using a plug and cable combination.
Each uses a different cable with a different-size fitting that plugs
into the device. Both style cables use the same wall-plug device.

What is the reason for the two different fittings? Both are obtaining
and converting power from the same wall plug.

It seems to me that Apple is just doing the printer ink scam and
adding an extra product to sell when replacements are needed.

21st century problems...
Connector problems that annoy the crap out of me date back to the 19th
and 20th century - and should have been replaced long ago:

The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.

The 20th century 12v auto "cigarette lighter/accessory socket". Surely
car-makers could have agreed on some alternative standard 1/2 century ago.

The 20th century "coaxial/barrel" DC power connector, usually on
wall-wart power supply/charger. Not only comes in a zillion different
sizes of external barrel diameter and internal hole size, but to top it
off, adapters with the same voltage and identical plug size can come
with reversed polarity.


  #2  
Old September 11th 15, 04:33 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default A question for Applefans

In article , Me
wrote:

21st century problems...
Connector problems that annoy the crap out of me date back to the 19th
and 20th century - and should have been replaced long ago:

The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.


why do you say that? they work just fine. the only issue is when a plug
goes beyond ts/trs, because trrs and especially trrrs are nonstandard.
however, that's a problem with any custom application.

The 20th century 12v auto "cigarette lighter/accessory socket". Surely
car-makers could have agreed on some alternative standard 1/2 century ago.


it was never intended to be an accessory socket. it was designed to
light a cigarette.

however, it turns out that there is 12v waiting to be used for other
stuff, so why not repurpose it.

the only drawback is that it takes up a lot of space and doesn't always
maintain a connection. fortunately, quality adapters avoid that issue.

recent cars have usb jacks and in some cases, ac outlets, but not all
devices run on 5v or 110vac. almost all automotive electronics are 12v.

The 20th century "coaxial/barrel" DC power connector, usually on
wall-wart power supply/charger. Not only comes in a zillion different
sizes of external barrel diameter and internal hole size, but to top it
off, adapters with the same voltage and identical plug size can come
with reversed polarity.


polarity can be a problem if the device is improperly designed. the
main issue is overvoltage or using an adapter that outputs ac rather
than dc (the reverse rarely will cause a problem).

a well designed device protects against using the wrong adapter but
most products don't and simply blame the user for ****ing up.
  #3  
Old September 11th 15, 07:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default A question for Applefans

On 11/09/2015 15:33, nospam wrote:
In article , Me
wrote:

21st century problems...
Connector problems that annoy the crap out of me date back to the 19th
and 20th century - and should have been replaced long ago:

The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.


why do you say that? they work just fine. the only issue is when a plug
goes beyond ts/trs, because trrs and especially trrrs are nonstandard.
however, that's a problem with any custom application.

A few issues. One is that most plugs have a straight barrel - though
you can get right-angle plugs, it's not uncommon that these can't be
plugged in to the device. As the plug barrels are as long or longer
than the contact shaft and rigid, they can exert a lot of force if the
cord is pulled sideways, sometimes bending the socket contacts,
sometimes breaking the socket, sometimes breaking the plug shaft.

I seem to have spent a lot of time over the past 10 years replacing
plugs, removing broken plug shafts, replacing sockets and audio i/o
boards in assorted phones/laptops/tablets.

The internal electrical contacts usually use a press-fit to connect to
to the tip/ring/sleeve. The tip and ring are forced sideways by the
spring contact in the socket. Eventually they fail. The sockets fail
too. It's ****-poor design - but it is 150 years old.

With low signal mic cables etc, they're a huge PITA as they are noisy -
the suggested "buy a better quality cable" offers only marginal
improvement. The tip and ring also contact the sleeve connection as
they're plugged/unplugged - which can cause some issues. In pro audio
they're still widely used and a curse, from the crappy 1/4" unbalanced
phono connectors on electric guitar leads / amps, but also 1/4" TRS for
balanced connection - as what became the default alternative (XLR)
despite being infinitely better, is a bit wider - so takes up more space
on mixers etc.



The 20th century 12v auto "cigarette lighter/accessory socket". Surely
car-makers could have agreed on some alternative standard 1/2 century ago.


it was never intended to be an accessory socket. it was designed to
light a cigarette.

however, it turns out that there is 12v waiting to be used for other
stuff, so why not repurpose it.

the only drawback is that it takes up a lot of space and doesn't always
maintain a connection. fortunately, quality adapters avoid that issue.

recent cars have usb jacks and in some cases, ac outlets, but not all
devices run on 5v or 110vac. almost all automotive electronics are 12v.

Well my car is 24v, and all of my "mains powered" devices use 230v, but
that another issue - and one where it's a damned shame there weren't
international standards.

The 20th century "coaxial/barrel" DC power connector, usually on
wall-wart power supply/charger. Not only comes in a zillion different
sizes of external barrel diameter and internal hole size, but to top it
off, adapters with the same voltage and identical plug size can come
with reversed polarity.


polarity can be a problem if the device is improperly designed. the
main issue is overvoltage or using an adapter that outputs ac rather
than dc (the reverse rarely will cause a problem).

a well designed device protects against using the wrong adapter but
most products don't and simply blame the user for ****ing up.

It's remarkable how many devices don't have reverse polarity protection,
despite the fact that the diodes needed can be bought for a few cents each.
  #4  
Old September 11th 15, 02:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Ken Hart[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 569
Default A question for Applefans

On 09/10/2015 11:02 PM, Me wrote:
snip

21st century problems...
Connector problems that annoy the crap out of me date back to the 19th
and 20th century - and should have been replaced long ago:


**************
The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.

**************

The 20th century 12v auto "cigarette lighter/accessory socket". Surely
car-makers could have agreed on some alternative standard 1/2 century ago.

The 20th century "coaxial/barrel" DC power connector, usually on
wall-wart power supply/charger. Not only comes in a zillion different
sizes of external barrel diameter and internal hole size, but to top it
off, adapters with the same voltage and identical plug size can come
with reversed polarity.


Just to be pedantic, and because I spent many years in broadcast
engineering:
In the **starred** paragraph above, the plug commonly used for
headphones is a "phone" plug, not a "phono" plug.
The "phone" plug came into use just as you say: from the telephone
switchboard. The connections on the plug are tip, ring, and sleeve. Tip
and Ring are the electrical connections for the telephone conversation
path, the sleeve is a ground connection. To this day, telco lineman
refer to the red and green wires as tip and ring.
The "phono" plug or "RCA Phono" plug was originally used for
phonographs. It is small, inexpensive to make, and easy to install. The
plug's construction allowed it to make a good mechanical connection, and
if it worked loose, it could be adjusted tight with a common pliers!
Eventually this connector was used for most home audio devices: tape
decks, tuners, etc.

As for the coaxial/barrel DC power connector, not only does it come in a
zillion different combinations of O. D., I. D., and polarity, but it
comes in different lengths, and is not limited to DC. I say bring back
screw terminal barrier strips!

--
Ken Hart

  #5  
Old September 11th 15, 03:29 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default A question for Applefans

In article , Me
wrote:

21st century problems...
Connector problems that annoy the crap out of me date back to the 19th
and 20th century - and should have been replaced long ago:

The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.


why do you say that? they work just fine. the only issue is when a plug
goes beyond ts/trs, because trrs and especially trrrs are nonstandard.
however, that's a problem with any custom application.

A few issues. One is that most plugs have a straight barrel - though
you can get right-angle plugs, it's not uncommon that these can't be
plugged in to the device. As the plug barrels are as long or longer
than the contact shaft and rigid, they can exert a lot of force if the
cord is pulled sideways, sometimes bending the socket contacts,
sometimes breaking the socket, sometimes breaking the plug shaft.


that is not specific to trs and can happen with any plug.

however, the thicker plugs are more resistant to torquing, such as the
1/4". the 2.5/3.5mm plugs can torque, especially because they're used
in portable devices.

some devices have a recessed jack to minimize that problem, which
causes some consumers to bitch because the plugs on some cables are
fatter than normal for no particular reason so they need an adapter.

I seem to have spent a lot of time over the past 10 years replacing
plugs, removing broken plug shafts, replacing sockets and audio i/o
boards in assorted phones/laptops/tablets.


then you're a klutz. torque failures may happen but they're not that
common.

The internal electrical contacts usually use a press-fit to connect to
to the tip/ring/sleeve. The tip and ring are forced sideways by the
spring contact in the socket. Eventually they fail. The sockets fail
too. It's ****-poor design - but it is 150 years old.


no they don't all eventually fail.

there are occasional failures, but nothing is perfect.

With low signal mic cables etc, they're a huge PITA as they are noisy -
the suggested "buy a better quality cable" offers only marginal
improvement. The tip and ring also contact the sleeve connection as
they're plugged/unplugged - which can cause some issues. In pro audio
they're still widely used and a curse, from the crappy 1/4" unbalanced
phono connectors on electric guitar leads / amps, but also 1/4" TRS for
balanced connection - as what became the default alternative (XLR)
despite being infinitely better, is a bit wider - so takes up more space
on mixers etc.


xlr is huge. nobody wants an xlr plug on their devices.

balanced/unbalanced is a separate issue and connecting while inserting
is trivially dealt with.

a bigger problem is when people plug in a ts plug into a trs or trrs
socket, which shorts out at least 2 pins.

the common case is a mono headphone into a stereo socket which will
short out one amplifier channel.

well designed devices handle that properly but like reverse polarity
problems, most products do not and blame the user for any failures. the
user did not break anything. the designer of the product ****ed up.

The 20th century 12v auto "cigarette lighter/accessory socket". Surely
car-makers could have agreed on some alternative standard 1/2 century ago.


it was never intended to be an accessory socket. it was designed to
light a cigarette.

however, it turns out that there is 12v waiting to be used for other
stuff, so why not repurpose it.

the only drawback is that it takes up a lot of space and doesn't always
maintain a connection. fortunately, quality adapters avoid that issue.

recent cars have usb jacks and in some cases, ac outlets, but not all
devices run on 5v or 110vac. almost all automotive electronics are 12v.


Well my car is 24v, and all of my "mains powered" devices use 230v, but
that another issue - and one where it's a damned shame there weren't
international standards.


what kind of car? almost every car made today is 12v.

some cars are starting to move to 48v, but they still need to provide
12v for compatibility with zillions of automotive accessories.

as for the inverter, cars intended for areas w/230v would likely have a
230v inverter. that's minor.

The 20th century "coaxial/barrel" DC power connector, usually on
wall-wart power supply/charger. Not only comes in a zillion different
sizes of external barrel diameter and internal hole size, but to top it
off, adapters with the same voltage and identical plug size can come
with reversed polarity.


polarity can be a problem if the device is improperly designed. the
main issue is overvoltage or using an adapter that outputs ac rather
than dc (the reverse rarely will cause a problem).

a well designed device protects against using the wrong adapter but
most products don't and simply blame the user for ****ing up.

It's remarkable how many devices don't have reverse polarity protection,
despite the fact that the diodes needed can be bought for a few cents each.


yep.
  #6  
Old September 11th 15, 03:29 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default A question for Applefans

In article , Ken Hart
wrote:

I say bring back
screw terminal barrier strips!


are you ****ing serious? nobody wants to screw in wires.
  #7  
Old September 11th 15, 07:32 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Ken Hart[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 569
Default A question for Applefans

On 09/11/2015 10:29 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Ken Hart
wrote:

I say bring back
screw terminal barrier strips!


are you ****ing serious? nobody wants to screw in wires.

Saying that "nobody" wants to screw in wires would require a sample set
of everyone, but we'll let that go. Suffice to say that in high power
applications, where the power level is "****ing serious", some type of
screw or bolt connector is commonplace.

Of course it's slow and clumsy, but name a connector type that is less
failure prone, and easier to repair than bare wires wrapped around a
screw and torqued down.
Maybe binding posts, but they are just screw terminals on steroids.

--
Ken Hart

  #8  
Old September 11th 15, 08:15 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default A question for Applefans

In article , Ken Hart
wrote:

I say bring back
screw terminal barrier strips!


are you ****ing serious? nobody wants to screw in wires.

Saying that "nobody" wants to screw in wires would require a sample set
of everyone, but we'll let that go.


it's a colloquial expression.

the number of people who want to screw in cables is close enough to
zero that it's not even noticeable, let alone significant.

Suffice to say that in high power
applications, where the power level is "****ing serious", some type of
screw or bolt connector is commonplace.


this isn't about high power applications.

it's about headphone jacks, power adapters for consumer devices,
automotive electronics, etc.

as stated before, nobody wants to screw in wires for *any* of that.

and even where power levels are '****ing serious', people still don't
want to screw in cables unless it's a *permanent installation*.

Of course it's slow and clumsy, but name a connector type that is less
failure prone, and easier to repair than bare wires wrapped around a
screw and torqued down.
Maybe binding posts, but they are just screw terminals on steroids.


most of them.

plugs can be keyed so you can't connect it backwards and cause damage.
that's a huge plus right there.

as for repair, remove defective cable or device and replace with new.
done. with modern devices you don't even need to power it off because
they're hot-pluggable.

try that with screwed in wires. good luck.
  #9  
Old September 11th 15, 11:13 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default A question for Applefans

On 12/09/2015 02:29, nospam wrote:
In article , Me
wrote:

21st century problems...
Connector problems that annoy the crap out of me date back to the 19th
and 20th century - and should have been replaced long ago:

The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.

why do you say that? they work just fine. the only issue is when a plug
goes beyond ts/trs, because trrs and especially trrrs are nonstandard.
however, that's a problem with any custom application.

A few issues. One is that most plugs have a straight barrel - though
you can get right-angle plugs, it's not uncommon that these can't be
plugged in to the device. As the plug barrels are as long or longer
than the contact shaft and rigid, they can exert a lot of force if the
cord is pulled sideways, sometimes bending the socket contacts,
sometimes breaking the socket, sometimes breaking the plug shaft.


that is not specific to trs and can happen with any plug.

however, the thicker plugs are more resistant to torquing, such as the
1/4". the 2.5/3.5mm plugs can torque, especially because they're used
in portable devices.

some devices have a recessed jack to minimize that problem, which
causes some consumers to bitch because the plugs on some cables are
fatter than normal for no particular reason so they need an adapter.

I seem to have spent a lot of time over the past 10 years replacing
plugs, removing broken plug shafts, replacing sockets and audio i/o
boards in assorted phones/laptops/tablets.


then you're a klutz. torque failures may happen but they're not that
common.

Not me - I'm the "mug" who gets presented with these things to fix by
the "klutz" who broke them. It's very common.

The internal electrical contacts usually use a press-fit to connect to
to the tip/ring/sleeve. The tip and ring are forced sideways by the
spring contact in the socket. Eventually they fail. The sockets fail
too. It's ****-poor design - but it is 150 years old.


no they don't all eventually fail.

there are occasional failures, but nothing is perfect.

Perhaps my experience is tainted by the fact that I also end up working
on devices which have an expected life longer than the couple of years
many people expect for phones, tablets, laptops etc.

With low signal mic cables etc, they're a huge PITA as they are noisy -
the suggested "buy a better quality cable" offers only marginal
improvement. The tip and ring also contact the sleeve connection as
they're plugged/unplugged - which can cause some issues. In pro audio
they're still widely used and a curse, from the crappy 1/4" unbalanced
phono connectors on electric guitar leads / amps, but also 1/4" TRS for
balanced connection - as what became the default alternative (XLR)
despite being infinitely better, is a bit wider - so takes up more space
on mixers etc.


xlr is huge. nobody wants an xlr plug on their devices.

Depends what the device is. Everybody seems to want XLR to connect
microphones for pro-audio applications.
But more probably, they want it because that's what's used - there's
usually no choice.
At least with xlr when connecting a device if something isn't working,
it's reasonably safe to assume that it's probably not the cable. With
1/4" TS/TRS, the cable or sockets are at the top of the suspect list -
for a good reason.


balanced/unbalanced is a separate issue and connecting while inserting
is trivially dealt with.

a bigger problem is when people plug in a ts plug into a trs or trrs
socket, which shorts out at least 2 pins.

the common case is a mono headphone into a stereo socket which will
short out one amplifier channel.

well designed devices handle that properly but like reverse polarity
problems, most products do not and blame the user for any failures. the
user did not break anything. the designer of the product ****ed up.

The 20th century 12v auto "cigarette lighter/accessory socket". Surely
car-makers could have agreed on some alternative standard 1/2 century ago.

it was never intended to be an accessory socket. it was designed to
light a cigarette.

however, it turns out that there is 12v waiting to be used for other
stuff, so why not repurpose it.

the only drawback is that it takes up a lot of space and doesn't always
maintain a connection. fortunately, quality adapters avoid that issue.

recent cars have usb jacks and in some cases, ac outlets, but not all
devices run on 5v or 110vac. almost all automotive electronics are 12v.


Well my car is 24v, and all of my "mains powered" devices use 230v, but
that another issue - and one where it's a damned shame there weren't
international standards.


what kind of car? almost every car made today is 12v.

A diesel-engine SUV.

some cars are starting to move to 48v, but they still need to provide
12v for compatibility with zillions of automotive accessories.

as for the inverter, cars intended for areas w/230v would likely have a
230v inverter. that's minor.

The 20th century "coaxial/barrel" DC power connector, usually on
wall-wart power supply/charger. Not only comes in a zillion different
sizes of external barrel diameter and internal hole size, but to top it
off, adapters with the same voltage and identical plug size can come
with reversed polarity.

polarity can be a problem if the device is improperly designed. the
main issue is overvoltage or using an adapter that outputs ac rather
than dc (the reverse rarely will cause a problem).

a well designed device protects against using the wrong adapter but
most products don't and simply blame the user for ****ing up.

It's remarkable how many devices don't have reverse polarity protection,
despite the fact that the diodes needed can be bought for a few cents each.


yep.


  #10  
Old September 11th 15, 11:26 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default A question for Applefans

On 12/09/2015 02:24, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 11 September 2015 14:39:02 UTC+1, Ken Hart wrote:
On 09/10/2015 11:02 PM, Me wrote:
snip


**************
The 19th century 1/4" phono plug, and subsequent 3.5 and 2.5mm miniature
versions. Quick and easy on a telephone switchboard back in the 1800s,
an abomination ever since, especially on mobile devices.

**************




Just to be pedantic,


that's what we like here

and because I spent many years in broadcast
engineering:
In the **starred** paragraph above, the plug commonly used for
headphones is a "phone" plug, not a "phono" plug.


I didn't know that's how it got it's name I thought it was just a pronouncation mistake that stuck and then got written down and kept.

I wonder if there's some colloquialism going on there. Calling the 1/4"
TS plug a "phono" plug seems common, though I see that strictly speaking
a phono plug is an RCA connector - but I've always called them RCA. If
someone said to me a "phone plug", then without some context, I'd
probably first think of the old (UK type) telephone/plug socket used here.


As for the coaxial/barrel DC power connector, not only does it come in a
zillion different combinations of O. D., I. D., and polarity, but it
comes in different lengths, and is not limited to DC. I say bring back
screw terminal barrier strips!


Choc blocks



--
Ken Hart



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question for Applefans nospam Digital Photography 136 September 18th 15 01:19 AM
A question for Applefans Sandman Digital Photography 44 September 16th 15 04:35 PM
A question for Applefans nospam Digital Photography 14 September 14th 15 05:09 PM
A question for Applefans Alan Browne Digital Photography 7 September 13th 15 02:28 AM
A question for Applefans PeterN[_6_] Digital Photography 1 September 8th 15 11:49 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.