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P&S Teleconverters



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 5th 08, 10:57 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
SMS
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Posts: 2,312
Default P&S Teleconverters

Eric Stevens wrote:
For those tempted to believe that P&S cameras might be able to offer
telephoto capabilities similar to a DSLR see:

The Canon TC-DC58C teleconvertor on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/review/product...Viewpoi nts=1

"If you want a field-of-view equivalent to a 420mm lens on 35mm film
cameras, but not all the time, this is a good choice, assuming you
already have a G7 or G9. If you are a frequent user of such long
focal lengths, you will likely prefer a camera that has it built
in, or better still, a digital SLR."


snip

You have to be really careful when choosing tele-converters and wide
angle converters. You don't need to choose the same brand as the camera.
Find the best tele-converter on the market, and find a lens tube and
adapters that connect it to the camera. I.e., the wide angle converter I
got for my Canon G series was not the Canon brand, it was much higher
end and much more expensive, and it worked with the Lensmate tube. Of
course it was also discontinued, greatly increasing the resale value on
eBay!

Needless to say, you can spend a lot of money on a kludge with those
conversion lenses, and achieve only moderate results. That's why the
advent of reasonably priced digital SLRs has destroyed the market for
high end point and shoot cameras.

The Panasonic G1 is essentially a high-end point and shoot but with
interchangeable lenses. For someone willing to put up with the major
disadvantages of a P&S, but that wants lenses for wide-angle and
telephot, the G1 at least is better than the kludgey adapters, but it's
certainly no bargain compared to a D-SLR that has far more capability.
  #32  
Old November 5th 08, 11:15 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Dudley Hanks[_2_]
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Posts: 629
Default P&S Teleconverters


"SMS" wrote in message
...
Eric Stevens wrote:
For those tempted to believe that P&S cameras might be able to offer
telephoto capabilities similar to a DSLR see:

The Canon TC-DC58C teleconvertor on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/review/product...Viewpoi nts=1

"If you want a field-of-view equivalent to a 420mm lens on 35mm film
cameras, but not all the time, this is a good choice, assuming you
already have a G7 or G9. If you are a frequent user of such long
focal lengths, you will likely prefer a camera that has it built
in, or better still, a digital SLR."


snip

You have to be really careful when choosing tele-converters and wide angle
converters. You don't need to choose the same brand as the camera. Find
the best tele-converter on the market, and find a lens tube and adapters
that connect it to the camera. I.e., the wide angle converter I got for my
Canon G series was not the Canon brand, it was much higher end and much
more expensive, and it worked with the Lensmate tube. Of course it was
also discontinued, greatly increasing the resale value on eBay!

Needless to say, you can spend a lot of money on a kludge with those
conversion lenses, and achieve only moderate results. That's why the
advent of reasonably priced digital SLRs has destroyed the market for high
end point and shoot cameras.


It would seem Canon never got that memo. With the introduction of the
Powershot SX 1 / 10 cameras, it has that market covered. By the time you
pick up a p&s camera, a wide angle and tele converter, you will likely have
shelled out more than the cost of either of these models, and your pics
won't be as good.

Also, with the SX 1 / 10 cameras, you can start building up some flash
accessories which will work with EOS DSLRs, should your interest in
photography develop as your skills increase...

Take Care,
Dudley



  #33  
Old November 6th 08, 02:49 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
SMS
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Posts: 2,312
Default P&S Teleconverters

Dudley Hanks wrote:

It would seem Canon never got that memo. With the introduction of the
Powershot SX 1 / 10 cameras, it has that market covered.


Yes, I was referring to the high end P&S cameras like the G10.

By the time you
pick up a p&s camera, a wide angle and tele converter, you will likely have
shelled out more than the cost of either of these models, and your pics
won't be as good.


Yes, it's true, but the SX1/SX10 leave out other important features like
the ability to use filters, though perhaps a third party will make a
tube that mounts to the grooves for the lens hood attachment. At least
with the G10 you can use a lens tube and have filters in addition to the
junky converter lenses.

Also, with the SX 1 / 10 cameras, you can start building up some flash
accessories which will work with EOS DSLRs, should your interest in
photography develop as your skills increase...


Same with the G10 (as far as the flash).

It's just silly to try all these work-arounds when something like the
XSi is so much more capable for not much more money. You're building a
system that will grow with your skills from the get-go, rather than
spending a ton of money on interim solutions. I was one of those people
that tried the converter lenses. You get decent results in some
circumstances, but it's a huge kludge. A ZLR is a better choice if you
need wide-angle or telephoto, but it's an interim step to a D-SLR which
solves the inherent limitations of a P&S.
  #34  
Old November 6th 08, 07:49 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Toby
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Posts: 237
Default P&S Teleconverters


"John McWilliams" wrote in message
. ..

Yes, trimming is really the thing, and I try to do so in every post, esp.
if I'm contributing such gems as "Me, too!" or "OMG I am so LOL".

I try to think that if I spend one second deleting pages of garbage, it'll
save hundreds some fraction of a second in non-scrolling. Same with
watching where replies are going, but here some are just ignorant of where
they go; others don't care, and still others do so to be annoying.


After due consideration, I think that is the answer for me: to take the
extra seconds to remove extraneous text and post inline. I'm not by nature a
neat person in my own sphere, but I do try to be considerate to others and I
try not to spread my garbage around. I appreciate you bringing it to my
attention.

Thanks to you too for your politeness. It is, as you point out, rare.

Toby


  #35  
Old November 12th 08, 09:04 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
SMS
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Posts: 2,312
Default P&S Teleconverters

Dudley Hanks wrote:

Also, with the SX 1 / 10 cameras, you can start building up some flash
accessories which will work with EOS DSLRs, should your interest in
photography develop as your skills increase...


Yes, it's true that at least the SX1 and SX10 obviate the need for those
horrid tele-converter and wide-angle adapters.

But the SX1, with the CMOS sensor, will be about $650 (and it's not
being released in the U.S. for now). How big is the market for a large,
$650, point and shoot camera, when D-SLR bodies are available for under
$400? Apparently Canon doesn't think it's too big since they aren't
marketing it in the U.S..

Love that 28mm-560mm lens, at least on paper, but those types of zooms
invariable have quality issues at each end, while doing okay in the
middle. Plus you're still putting up with all the other drawabacks of a
P&S, such as the poor dynamic range and the slow AF.

When D-SLRs were over $1000, there was a big market for those super-zoom
P&S models. Now they don't sell well because they were selling them
mainly to enthusiasts that have upgraded to SLRs. Selling expensive P&S
super-zooms to people that don't understand anything about photographic
equipment may not be the best marketing plan.
  #36  
Old November 12th 08, 09:36 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
HarleyTJ
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Posts: 2
Default P&S Teleconverters

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:04:18 -0800, SMS wrote:

Dudley Hanks wrote:

Also, with the SX 1 / 10 cameras, you can start building up some flash
accessories which will work with EOS DSLRs, should your interest in
photography develop as your skills increase...


Yes, it's true that at least the SX1 and SX10 obviate the need for those
horrid tele-converter and wide-angle adapters.

But the SX1, with the CMOS sensor, will be about $650 (and it's not
being released in the U.S. for now). How big is the market for a large,
$650, point and shoot camera, when D-SLR bodies are available for under
$400? Apparently Canon doesn't think it's too big since they aren't
marketing it in the U.S..

Love that 28mm-560mm lens, at least on paper, but those types of zooms
invariable have quality issues at each end, while doing okay in the
middle. Plus you're still putting up with all the other drawabacks of a
P&S, such as the poor dynamic range and the slow AF.

When D-SLRs were over $1000, there was a big market for those super-zoom
P&S models. Now they don't sell well because they were selling them
mainly to enthusiasts that have upgraded to SLRs. Selling expensive P&S
super-zooms to people that don't understand anything about photographic
equipment may not be the best marketing plan.


Many points outlined below completely disprove your usual resident-troll
bull****. You can either read it and educate yourself, or don't read it and
continue to prove to everyone that you are nothing but a virtual-photographer
newsgroup-troll and a fool.


1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
wide-angle and telephoto (tel-extender) add-on lenses for many makes and models
of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your photography
gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can far surpass any
range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or will ever be made for
larger format cameras.

2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used with
high-quality tel-extenders, which by the way, do not reduce the lens' original
aperture one bit. Only DSLRs suffer from that problem due to the manner in which
their tele-converters work. They can also have higher quality full-frame
180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than any
DSLR and its glass in existence. Some excellent fish-eye adapters can be added
to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic-aberration nor
edge-softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this allows you to
seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm equivalent focal-length
up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own lens.

3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic Range vs. an
APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/...7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent) sensors
used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much smaller.
Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures and are more
easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for DSLRs. This also
allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than DSLR glass which is
only good for one aperture setting per lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S
glass can out-resolve even the best DSLR glass ever made. After all is said and
done, you will spend 1/4th to 1/50th the price that you would have to in order
to get comparable performance in a DSLR camera. When you buy a DSLR you are
investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips, external
flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc. etc. The
outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial DSLR body
purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their banks.

5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera plus one
small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing just a couple
pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would require over 10 to 20
pounds of DSLR body and lenses. You can carry the whole P&S kit in one roomy
pocket of a wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy
backpack. You also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer, you
will not be barred from using your camera at public events, stage-performances,
and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots, you won't so easily
alert all those within a block around, from the obnoxious noise that your DSLR
is making, that you are capturing anyone's images. For the more dedicated
wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not endanger your life when
photographing potentially dangerous animals by alerting them to your presence.

7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you may
capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where any
evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance. Without the
need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware into remote
areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time allotted for bringing
back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for unattended time-lapse
photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you may capture those unusual
or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a rare slime-mold's propagation,
that you happened to find in a mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest
laptop or other time-lapse hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that
CHDK brings to the creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to
list them all here. See http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK )

8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See:
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CameraFeatures Allowing you to capture fast subject
motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the need of
artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone. Nor will
their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane shutter
distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when photographed with all
DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions example-image link in #10.)

9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including shutter-speeds
of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_...%26_Flash-Sync without
the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter flash-units that
must strobe for the full duration of the shutter's curtain to pass over the
frame. The other downside to those kinds of flash units, is that the
light-output is greatly reduced the faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed
used that is faster than your camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the
flash output. Not so when using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash
is recorded no matter the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK
capable cameras where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the
lightning-fast single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is
1/10,000 of a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a
second, then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also
don't require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may
be used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that can
compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:
http://www.adorama.com/SZ23504.html

10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
(focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ch...istortions.jpg
do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground, 90-degrees
from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously loud slapping
mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily damaged, expensive
repair costs, etc.

11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're not
worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete while you do, and
not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos that day from having
gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous photographer you're no
longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of unneeded glass, allowing you to
carry more of the important supplies, like food and water, allowing you to trek
much further than you've ever been able to travel before with your old D/SLR
bricks.

12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the
planet can compare in the quality of available-light macro photography that can
be accomplished with nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera.

13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo audio
recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature where a
still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong. E.g. recording
the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living field-mice. With your
P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't miss that once-in-a-lifetime
chance to record some unexpected event, like the passage of a bright meteor in
the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion, or any other newsworthy event. Imagine
the gaping hole in our history of the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras
there at the time. The mystery of how it exploded would have never been solved.
Or the amateur 8mm film of the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready
P&S camera being with you all the time might capture something that will be a
valuable part of human history one day.

14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your composition by
trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With the ability to
overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area alerts (and dozens of
other important shooting data) directly on your electronic viewfinder display
you are also not going to guess if your exposure might be right this time. Nor
do you have to remove your eye from the view of your subject to check some
external LCD histogram display, ruining your chances of getting that perfect
shot when it happens.

15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and sensors
that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as light-levels
drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in total darkness by
using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other multi-purpose cameras are
capable of taking still-frame and videos of nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as
well. Shooting videos and still-frames of nocturnal animals in the total-dark,
without disturbing their natural behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away
with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is not only possible, it's been done, many times, by
myself. (An interesting and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly
stomped to death by an irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash
come from.)

16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it away
nor changing their natural behavior with your existence. Nor, as previously
mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your direction. You are recording
nature as it is, and should be, not some artificial human-changed distortion of
reality and nature.

17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A leaf-shutter or
electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will capture your moving
subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S photography will no longer lead a
biologist nor other scientist down another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is recorded.
In the hands of an experienced photographer that will always rely on prefocusing
their camera, there is no hit & miss auto-focusing that happens on all
auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This allows you to take advantage of the
faster shutter response times of P&S cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that
if you really want to get every shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in
any camera.

19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately relay
the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate preview of
what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3 seconds or
1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the crisp sharp outlines
of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100% accurately depicted in
your viewfinder before you even record the shot. What you see in a P&S camera is
truly what you get. You won't have to guess in advance at what shutter speed to
use to obtain those artistic effects or those scientifically accurate nature
studies that you require or that your client requires. When testing CHDK P&S
cameras that could have shutter speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was
amazed that I could half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a
Dremel-Drill's 30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real
time, without ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when
lowering shutter speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls,
instantly seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never
realize what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of its
own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender on the
front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would with a DSLR.
Framing and the included background is relative to the subject at the time and
has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens in use. Your f/ratio
(which determines your depth-of-field), is a computation of focal-length divided
by aperture diameter. Increase the focal-length and you make your DOF shallower.
No different than opening up the aperture to accomplish the same. The two
methods are identically related where DOF is concerned.

21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S camera can have
larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in existence. The time
when you really need a fast lens to prevent camera-shake that gets amplified at
those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs you can take perfectly fine hand-held
images at super-zoom settings. Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures
at long focal lengths require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They
need high ISOs, you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are
some excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
ISO1600 and more.

22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of around
$100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer today. IF they
have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award winning photograph with
a cardboard Brownie Box camera made a century ago. If you can't take excellent
photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able to get good photos on a DSLR
either. Never blame your inability to obtain a good photograph on the kind of
camera that you own. Those who claim they NEED a DSLR are only fooling
themselves and all others. These are the same people that buy a new camera every
year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only had the right camera, a better camera,
better lenses, faster lenses, then I will be a great photographer!" Camera
company's love these people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will
make their photography better, because they never were a good photographer to
begin with. The irony is that by them thinking that they only need to throw
money at the problem, they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real
problem is. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why these
self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras instantly reveal to
them their ****-poor photography skills.

23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera gear.
They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile and tell
them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the look on their
face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that lost money, and a
sadness just courses through every fiber of their being. Wondering why they
can't get photographs as good after they spent all that time and money. Get good
on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun experience.

24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag, hoping
that you'll lug it around again some day.

25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you. That's
like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS STUPID AND I
DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only take it out when
needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with all your photos. And
should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're not out $20,000. They are
inexpensive to replace.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just
better, all around. No doubt about it.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:

"If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains a
foolish thing."

  #37  
Old November 14th 08, 03:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
RichA[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 336
Default P&S Teleconverters

ALL p&s's have sub-par lenses, all of them. That won't change.

"SMS" wrote in message
...
Dudley Hanks wrote:

Also, with the SX 1 / 10 cameras, you can start building up some flash
accessories which will work with EOS DSLRs, should your interest in
photography develop as your skills increase...


Yes, it's true that at least the SX1 and SX10 obviate the need for those
horrid tele-converter and wide-angle adapters.

But the SX1, with the CMOS sensor, will be about $650 (and it's not being
released in the U.S. for now). How big is the market for a large, $650,
point and shoot camera, when D-SLR bodies are available for under $400?
Apparently Canon doesn't think it's too big since they aren't marketing it
in the U.S..

Love that 28mm-560mm lens, at least on paper, but those types of zooms
invariable have quality issues at each end, while doing okay in the
middle. Plus you're still putting up with all the other drawabacks of a
P&S, such as the poor dynamic range and the slow AF.

When D-SLRs were over $1000, there was a big market for those super-zoom
P&S models. Now they don't sell well because they were selling them mainly
to enthusiasts that have upgraded to SLRs. Selling expensive P&S
super-zooms to people that don't understand anything about photographic
equipment may not be the best marketing plan.



  #38  
Old November 14th 08, 03:54 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
glen thomas
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Default P&S Teleconverters

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:30:31 -0500, "RichA" wrote:

ALL p&s's have sub-par lenses, all of them. That won't change.


Many points outlined below completely disprove your usual resident-troll
bull****. You can either read it and educate yourself, or don't read it and
continue to prove to everyone that you are nothing but a virtual-photographer
newsgroup-troll and a fool.


1. P&S cameras can have more seamless zoom range than any DSLR glass in
existence. (E.g. 9mm f2.7 - 1248mm f/3.5.) There are now some excellent
wide-angle and telephoto (tel-extender) add-on lenses for many makes and models
of P&S cameras. Add either or both of these small additions to your photography
gear and, with some of the new super-zoom P&S cameras, you can far surpass any
range of focal-lengths and apertures that are available or will ever be made for
larger format cameras.

2. P&S cameras can have much wider apertures at longer focal lengths than any
DSLR glass in existence. (E.g. 549mm f/2.4 and 1248mm f/3.5) when used with
high-quality tel-extenders, which by the way, do not reduce the lens' original
aperture one bit. Only DSLRs suffer from that problem due to the manner in which
their tele-converters work. They can also have higher quality full-frame
180-degree circular fisheye and intermediate super-wide-angle views than any
DSLR and its glass in existence. Some excellent fish-eye adapters can be added
to your P&S camera which do not impart any chromatic-aberration nor
edge-softness. When used with a super-zoom P&S camera this allows you to
seamlessly go from as wide as a 9mm (or even wider) 35mm equivalent focal-length
up to the wide-angle setting of the camera's own lens.

3. P&S smaller sensor cameras can and do have wider dynamic range than larger
sensor cameras E.g. a 1/2.5" sized sensor can have a 10.3EV Dynamic Range vs. an
APS-C's typical 7.0-8.0EV Dynamic Range. One quick example:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/...7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

4. P&S cameras are cost efficient. Due to the smaller (but excellent) sensors
used in many of them today, the lenses for these cameras are much smaller.
Smaller lenses are easier to manufacture to exacting curvatures and are more
easily corrected for aberrations than larger glass used for DSLRs. This also
allows them to perform better at all apertures rather than DSLR glass which is
only good for one aperture setting per lens. Side by side tests prove that P&S
glass can out-resolve even the best DSLR glass ever made. After all is said and
done, you will spend 1/4th to 1/50th the price that you would have to in order
to get comparable performance in a DSLR camera. When you buy a DSLR you are
investing in a body that will require expensive lenses, hand-grips, external
flash units, heavy tripods, more expensive larger filters, etc. etc. The
outrageous costs of owning a DSLR add up fast after that initial DSLR body
purchase. Camera companies count on this, all the way to their banks.

5. P&S cameras are lightweight and convenient. With just one P&S camera plus one
small wide-angle adapter and one small telephoto adapter weighing just a couple
pounds, you have the same amount of zoom range as would require over 10 to 20
pounds of DSLR body and lenses. You can carry the whole P&S kit in one roomy
pocket of a wind-breaker or jacket. The DSLR kit would require a sturdy
backpack. You also don't require a massive tripod. Large tripods are required to
stabilize the heavy and unbalanced mass of the larger DSLR and its massive
lenses. A P&S camera, being so light, can be used on some of the most
inexpensive, compact, and lightweight tripods with excellent results.

6. P&S cameras are silent. For the more common snap-shooter/photographer, you
will not be barred from using your camera at public events, stage-performances,
and ceremonies. Or when trying to capture candid shots, you won't so easily
alert all those within a block around, from the obnoxious noise that your DSLR
is making, that you are capturing anyone's images. For the more dedicated
wildlife photographer a P&S camera will not endanger your life when
photographing potentially dangerous animals by alerting them to your presence.

7. Some P&S cameras can run the revolutionary CHDK software on them, which
allows for lightning-fast motion detection (literally, lightning fast 45ms
response time, able to capture lightning strikes automatically) so that you may
capture more elusive and shy animals (in still-frame and video) where any
evidence of your presence at all might prevent their appearance. Without the
need of carrying a tethered laptop along or any other hardware into remote
areas--which only limits your range, distance, and time allotted for bringing
back that one-of-a-kind image. It also allows for unattended time-lapse
photography for days and weeks at a time, so that you may capture those unusual
or intriguing subject-studies in nature. E.g. a rare slime-mold's propagation,
that you happened to find in a mountain-ravine, 10-days hike from the nearest
laptop or other time-lapse hardware. (The wealth of astounding new features that
CHDK brings to the creative-table of photography are too extensive to begin to
list them all here. See http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK )

8. P&S cameras can have shutter speeds up to 1/40,000th of a second. See:
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CameraFeatures Allowing you to capture fast subject
motion in nature (e.g. insect and hummingbird wings) WITHOUT the need of
artificial and image destroying flash, using available light alone. Nor will
their wing shapes be unnaturally distorted from the focal-plane shutter
distortions imparted in any fast moving objects, as when photographed with all
DSLRs. (See focal-plane-shutter-distortions example-image link in #10.)

9. P&S cameras can have full-frame flash-sync up to and including shutter-speeds
of 1/40,000th of a second. E.g.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_...%26_Flash-Sync without
the use of any expensive and specialized focal-plane shutter flash-units that
must strobe for the full duration of the shutter's curtain to pass over the
frame. The other downside to those kinds of flash units, is that the
light-output is greatly reduced the faster the shutter speed. Any shutter speed
used that is faster than your camera's X-Sync speed is cutting off some of the
flash output. Not so when using a leaf-shutter. The full intensity of the flash
is recorded no matter the shutter speed used. Unless, as in the case of CHDK
capable cameras where the camera's shutter speed can even be faster than the
lightning-fast single burst from a flash unit. E.g. If the flash's duration is
1/10,000 of a second, and your CHDK camera's shutter is set to 1/20,000 of a
second, then it will only record half of that flash output. P&S cameras also
don't require any expensive and dedicated external flash unit. Any of them may
be used with any flash unit made by using an inexpensive slave-trigger that can
compensate for any automated pre-flash conditions. Example:
http://www.adorama.com/SZ23504.html

10. P&S cameras do not suffer from focal-plane shutter drawbacks and
limitations. Causing camera shake, moving-subject image distortions
(focal-plane-shutter distortions, e.g.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ch...istortions.jpg
do note the distorted tail-rotor too and its shadow on the ground, 90-degrees
from one another), last-century-slow flash-sync, obnoxiously loud slapping
mirrors and shutter curtains, shorter mechanical life, easily damaged, expensive
repair costs, etc.

11. When doing wildlife photography in remote and rugged areas and harsh
environments, or even when the amateur snap-shooter is trying to take their
vacation photos on a beach or dusty intersection on some city street, you're not
worrying about trying to change lenses in time to get that shot (fewer missed
shots), dropping one in the mud, lake, surf, or on concrete while you do, and
not worrying about ruining all the rest of your photos that day from having
gotten dust & crud on the sensor. For the adventurous photographer you're no
longer weighed down by many many extra pounds of unneeded glass, allowing you to
carry more of the important supplies, like food and water, allowing you to trek
much further than you've ever been able to travel before with your old D/SLR
bricks.

12. Smaller sensors and the larger apertures available allow for the deep DOF
required for excellent macro-photography, WITHOUT the need of any image
destroying, subject irritating, natural-look destroying flash. No DSLR on the
planet can compare in the quality of available-light macro photography that can
be accomplished with nearly any smaller-sensor P&S camera.

13. P&S cameras include video, and some even provide for CD-quality stereo audio
recordings, so that you might capture those rare events in nature where a
still-frame alone could never prove all those "scientists" wrong. E.g. recording
the paw-drumming communication patterns of eusocial-living field-mice. With your
P&S video-capable camera in your pocket you won't miss that once-in-a-lifetime
chance to record some unexpected event, like the passage of a bright meteor in
the sky in daytime, a mid-air explosion, or any other newsworthy event. Imagine
the gaping hole in our history of the Hindenberg if there were no film cameras
there at the time. The mystery of how it exploded would have never been solved.
Or the amateur 8mm film of the shooting of President Kennedy. Your video-ready
P&S camera being with you all the time might capture something that will be a
valuable part of human history one day.

14. P&S cameras have 100% viewfinder coverage that exactly matches your final
image. No important bits lost, and no chance of ruining your composition by
trying to "guess" what will show up in the final image. With the ability to
overlay live RGB-histograms, and under/over-exposure area alerts (and dozens of
other important shooting data) directly on your electronic viewfinder display
you are also not going to guess if your exposure might be right this time. Nor
do you have to remove your eye from the view of your subject to check some
external LCD histogram display, ruining your chances of getting that perfect
shot when it happens.

15. P&S cameras can and do focus in lower-light (which is common in natural
settings) than any DSLRs in existence, due to electronic viewfinders and sensors
that can be increased in gain for framing and focusing purposes as light-levels
drop. Some P&S cameras can even take images (AND videos) in total darkness by
using IR illumination alone. (See: Sony) No other multi-purpose cameras are
capable of taking still-frame and videos of nocturnal wildlife as easily nor as
well. Shooting videos and still-frames of nocturnal animals in the total-dark,
without disturbing their natural behavior by the use of flash, from 90 ft. away
with a 549mm f/2.4 lens is not only possible, it's been done, many times, by
myself. (An interesting and true story: one wildlife photographer was nearly
stomped to death by an irate moose that attacked where it saw his camera's flash
come from.)

16. Without the need to use flash in all situations, and a P&S's nearly 100%
silent operation, you are not disturbing your wildlife, neither scaring it away
nor changing their natural behavior with your existence. Nor, as previously
mentioned, drawing its defensive behavior in your direction. You are recording
nature as it is, and should be, not some artificial human-changed distortion of
reality and nature.

17. Nature photography requires that the image be captured with the greatest
degree of accuracy possible. NO focal-plane shutter in existence, with its
inherent focal-plane-shutter distortions imparted on any moving subject will
EVER capture any moving subject in nature 100% accurately. A leaf-shutter or
electronic shutter, as is found in ALL P&S cameras, will capture your moving
subject in nature with 100% accuracy. Your P&S photography will no longer lead a
biologist nor other scientist down another DSLR-distorted path of non-reality.

18. Some P&S cameras have shutter-lag times that are even shorter than all the
popular DSLRs, due to the fact that they don't have to move those agonizingly
slow and loud mirrors and shutter curtains in time before the shot is recorded.
In the hands of an experienced photographer that will always rely on prefocusing
their camera, there is no hit & miss auto-focusing that happens on all
auto-focus systems, DSLRs included. This allows you to take advantage of the
faster shutter response times of P&S cameras. Any pro worth his salt knows that
if you really want to get every shot, you don't depend on automatic anything in
any camera.

19. An electronic viewfinder, as exists in all P&S cameras, can accurately relay
the camera's shutter-speed in real-time. Giving you a 100% accurate preview of
what your final subject is going to look like when shot at 3 seconds or
1/20,000th of a second. Your soft waterfall effects, or the crisp sharp outlines
of your stopped-motion hummingbird wings will be 100% accurately depicted in
your viewfinder before you even record the shot. What you see in a P&S camera is
truly what you get. You won't have to guess in advance at what shutter speed to
use to obtain those artistic effects or those scientifically accurate nature
studies that you require or that your client requires. When testing CHDK P&S
cameras that could have shutter speeds as fast as 1/40,000th of a second, I was
amazed that I could half-depress the shutter and watch in the viewfinder as a
Dremel-Drill's 30,000 rpm rotating disk was stopped in crisp detail in real
time, without ever having taken an example shot yet. Similarly true when
lowering shutter speeds for milky-water effects when shooting rapids and falls,
instantly seeing the effect in your viewfinder. Poor DSLR-trolls will never
realize what they are missing with their anciently slow focal-plane shutters and
wholly inaccurate optical viewfinders.

20. P&S cameras can obtain the very same bokeh (out of focus foreground and
background) as any DSLR by just increasing your focal length, through use of its
own built-in super-zoom lens or attaching a high-quality telextender on the
front. Just back up from your subject more than you usually would with a DSLR.
Framing and the included background is relative to the subject at the time and
has nothing at all to do with the kind of camera and lens in use. Your f/ratio
(which determines your depth-of-field), is a computation of focal-length divided
by aperture diameter. Increase the focal-length and you make your DOF shallower.
No different than opening up the aperture to accomplish the same. The two
methods are identically related where DOF is concerned.

21. P&S cameras will have perfectly fine noise-free images at lower ISOs with
just as much resolution as any DSLR camera. Experienced Pros grew up on ISO25
and ISO64 film all their lives. They won't even care if their P&S camera can't
go above ISO400 without noise. An added bonus is that the P&S camera can have
larger apertures at longer focal-lengths than any DSLR in existence. The time
when you really need a fast lens to prevent camera-shake that gets amplified at
those focal-lengths. Even at low ISOs you can take perfectly fine hand-held
images at super-zoom settings. Whereas the DSLR, with its very small apertures
at long focal lengths require ISOs above 3200 to obtain the same results. They
need high ISOs, you don't. If you really require low-noise high ISOs, there are
some excellent models of Fuji P&S cameras that do have noise-free images up to
ISO1600 and more.

22. Don't for one minute think that the price of your camera will in any way
determine the quality of your photography. Any of the newer cameras of around
$100 or more are plenty good for nearly any talented photographer today. IF they
have talent to begin with. A REAL pro can take an award winning photograph with
a cardboard Brownie Box camera made a century ago. If you can't take excellent
photos on a P&S camera then you won't be able to get good photos on a DSLR
either. Never blame your inability to obtain a good photograph on the kind of
camera that you own. Those who claim they NEED a DSLR are only fooling
themselves and all others. These are the same people that buy a new camera every
year, each time thinking, "Oh, if I only had the right camera, a better camera,
better lenses, faster lenses, then I will be a great photographer!" Camera
company's love these people. They'll never be able to get a camera that will
make their photography better, because they never were a good photographer to
begin with. The irony is that by them thinking that they only need to throw
money at the problem, they'll never look in the mirror to see what the real
problem is. They'll NEVER become good photographers. Perhaps this is why these
self-proclaimed "pros" hate P&S cameras so much. P&S cameras instantly reveal to
them their ****-poor photography skills.

23. Have you ever had the fun of showing some of your exceptional P&S
photography to some self-proclaimed "Pro" who uses $30,000 worth of camera gear.
They are so impressed that they must know how you did it. You smile and tell
them, "Oh, I just use a $150 P&S camera." Don't you just love the look on their
face? A half-life of self-doubt, the realization of all that lost money, and a
sadness just courses through every fiber of their being. Wondering why they
can't get photographs as good after they spent all that time and money. Get good
on your P&S camera and you too can enjoy this fun experience.

24. Did we mention portability yet? I think we did, but it is worth mentioning
the importance of this a few times. A camera in your pocket that is instantly
ready to get any shot during any part of the day will get more award-winning
photographs than that DSLR gear that's sitting back at home, collecting dust,
and waiting to be loaded up into that expensive back-pack or camera bag, hoping
that you'll lug it around again some day.

25. A good P&S camera is a good theft deterrent. When traveling you are not
advertising to the world that you are carrying $20,000 around with you. That's
like having a sign on your back saying, "PLEASE MUG ME! I'M THIS STUPID AND I
DESERVE IT!" Keep a small P&S camera in your pocket and only take it out when
needed. You'll have a better chance of returning home with all your photos. And
should you accidentally lose your P&S camera you're not out $20,000. They are
inexpensive to replace.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just
better, all around. No doubt about it.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:

"If even 5 billion people are saying and doing a foolish thing, it remains a
foolish thing."

  #39  
Old December 21st 08, 12:01 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Wolfgang Weisselberg
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Posts: 5,285
Default P&S Teleconverters

glen thomas wrote:

Many points outlined below completely disprove your usual resident-troll
bull****.


1. P&S cameras only have 3x zoom range, at most.
2. P&S cameras cannot reach range nor aperture of SLRs, and
where they can, they still cannot compete.
3. P&S cameras have ****ty dynamic range.
4. P&S cameras are cheap. Not price worthy, cheap.
5. P&S cameras are badly built and inconvenient to use.
6. P&S cameras have annoying fake shutter sounds.
7. Some P&S cameras have a ridiculous display lag of half a
second or worse.
8. P&S cameras are so slow to focus and to show what they see
right now, a negative shutter lag is commonly needed.
9. P&S cameras have terrible weak flashes and no hot shoes.
10. P&S cameras suffer from heavily distorting lenses.
11. When being off the beaten path, P&S cameras have empty batteries
all the time. Changing them often drops the camera into salt
water, on rocks or in the mud.
12. P&S cameras can't produce macro shots, only dark, distorted
close ups --- and they need ugly direct flash to produce
even that.
13. P&S cameras include video and audio modes designed to
frighten small children by their quality. If they'd been
filming the Hindenburg or Kennedy, all one could see would
be Kennedy bursting into flames or the Hindenburg parading
through streets.
14. P&S cameras have no viewfinder, though a few have a 'dark
hole'.
15. P&S cameras give up focussing at LV6, making them unable to
focus indoors even in daytime.
16. With the need to use their ineffective, puny flash in all
situations, a P&S shooter was trampled to death by an irate
moose.
17. Due to their distortions, CA, rolling shutter effect and
complete colour inaccuracy, people needing even a minimum
of acuracy abhor P&S cameras even more than the devil abhors
holy water.
18. P&S cameras have miss and miss autofocussing, using slow and
painful and noisy lens movements to zero in. P&S also cannot
switch off any of their automatic, misguessing mechanisms.
19. An electronic viewfinder as found in most P&S cameras, is a
terrible source of lag and shows what you'd have gotten had
you pressed the shutter release half a second ago.
20. P&S camera bokeh and 'shallow' DOF isn't in intercontinental
missile range compared to DSLRs.
21. P&S cameras are perfect noise generators for cryptographic
needs.
22. P&S cameras will not allow you to make stunning photographs
unless you can make even better ones with SLRs.
23. Have you ever shown a P&S troll a SLR snapshot? Try it.
See him rotate like mad trying to produce something similar.
Watch him invent new swear words for lag, bokeh, DOF, and
so on.
24. Did we mention always flat batteries and inability to see
anything in sunlight and noise-only shots without direct
sunlight yet? Watch them carry more P&S and more expensive
gear than a full collection of all Canon lenses and still fail.
25. A good P&S camera is one that's stolen so you can buy a
real camera. Unfortunately, even street beggars will give
you money because they pity you and your P&S crap.

There are many more reasons to add to this list but this should be more than
enough for even the most unaware person to realize that P&S cameras are just

pure crap, unless you want to go begging in the streets.

The phenomenon of everyone yelling "You NEED a DSLR!" can be summed up in just
one short phrase:


"Take a P&S when you *don't* want to take photos."

-Wolfgang
  #40  
Old December 21st 08, 12:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Wolfgang Weisselberg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,285
Default P&S Teleconverters

bugbear wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote:
... there is a down side.


In other news there is NO ultimate camera.


Resolution, sharpness, convenience, ease of use,
weight, cost, speed of response all vary,
and in some cases conflict.


I'll take a slice of bread as a camera. It's not very good at
taking pictures, but at least it's easy to eat, conveniently
bought, cheap, light, and fast eaten. Who needs resolutions or
a sharp crust?

See, a slice of bread beats a P&S camera hands down. :-

-Wolfgang
 




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