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Warm tone papers and developers



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 25th 06, 08:43 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers

The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I
goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this
make a big difference?
-LS


  #2  
Old March 25th 06, 10:19 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:43:48 -0500, "Lew"
wrote:

The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I
goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this
make a big difference?
-LS



March 25, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

It won't make a big difference. If you tried
both ways and compared final prints, you
would see a slight, subtle difference.

The developer has a powerful effect on the
result of selenium toning.

You're right about 120 developer (Adams
publishes the formula as Ansco 120, in "The
Print"). It's very good for prints meant to
be toned.

Replacing the sulfite with the potassium salt
will further increase the warmth of tone.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net:
www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
--

  #3  
Old March 25th 06, 10:58 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers

In article ,
Lew wrote:
The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)?


Dektol will give a warm tone tending towards green, with the Forte paper
at least and probably with some others. A "warm tone" developer will give
a warm tone tending towards yellow-brown. Either can be quite nice,
depending on what you're aiming for. Some photographers consider the
greenish tone resulting from using a "cold tone" developer with a "warm
tone" paper to be ugly, particularly for certain subjects; personally,
I like it a lot for night shots of architecture, and for certain other
things, but I usually find it unwelcome for portraits.

Ektaflo Type 2 is a nice developer to keep handy for use with warm
tone papers. It is a convenient liquid formula which gives results
that are not so far towards brown as some other developers, but not
green as Dektol can be. It is basically the same as Kodak Selectol,
which is no longer available, so you can really fine-tune image color
and contrast by either substituting it with Selectol-Soft (which gives
less contrast, and a _very very_ slightly warmer image) or mixing it
with Dektol working solution (which gives both higher contrast and a
shift in image color depending how much of each is used in the mix).

--
Thor Lancelot Simon

"We cannot usually in social life pursue a single value or a single moral
aim, untroubled by the need to compromise with others." - H.L.A. Hart
  #4  
Old March 26th 06, 12:39 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers


"Thor Lancelot Simon" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Lew wrote:
The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying
(Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa
120)?


Dektol will give a warm tone tending towards green, with
the Forte paper
at least and probably with some others. A "warm tone"
developer will give
a warm tone tending towards yellow-brown. Either can be
quite nice,
depending on what you're aiming for. Some photographers
consider the
greenish tone resulting from using a "cold tone" developer
with a "warm
tone" paper to be ugly, particularly for certain subjects;
personally,
I like it a lot for night shots of architecture, and for
certain other
things, but I usually find it unwelcome for portraits.

Ektaflo Type 2 is a nice developer to keep handy for use
with warm
tone papers. It is a convenient liquid formula which
gives results
that are not so far towards brown as some other
developers, but not
green as Dektol can be. It is basically the same as Kodak
Selectol,
which is no longer available, so you can really fine-tune
image color
and contrast by either substituting it with Selectol-Soft
(which gives
less contrast, and a _very very_ slightly warmer image) or
mixing it
with Dektol working solution (which gives both higher
contrast and a
shift in image color depending how much of each is used in
the mix).

--
Thor Lancelot Simon


Ektaflo Type-2 is a liquid similar to the discontinued
Ektonol. Ektonol was advertised as not containing carbonate.
Ektonol had a mixtuure of Borax and hydroxide, which become
Kodalk in solution. Kodak claimed this reduced the chances
of staining when toning but I've never seen an explanation
of this claim or ever had a problem with staining which
could be traced to the developer.
The main difference between cold, normal, and warm tone
developers is their activity. In general, warm tone
developers have less carbonate. Agfa/Ansco 120 is different
because it has only Metol as the developing agent. This is
similar to Kodak Selectol Soft.
Some developing agents, notably Glycin, and Hydroquinone
when used alone, tend toward warmer tones. Increasing the
amount of Bromide will also shift tones toward yellow.
Potassium salts are supposed to be somewhat different
than Sodium in photographic activity but I've never seen any
sort of scientific measurment of this. For the most part
they are interchangible. While Agfa liked to use Potassium
salts in its packaged formulas the published ones have
mostly sodium salts. Agfa evidently obtained potassium salts
cheaply as a by-product of some manufacturing process. Here
are some formulae for comparison:

Agfa 120 Soft Working Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 12.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 36.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 36.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.8 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute 1 part stock with 2 parts water.

Agfa 125 Standard Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 3.0 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 44.0 grams
Hydroquinone 12.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 65.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute 1 part stock to 2 parts water.

Agfa 106 Warm Tone Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 0.7 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 11.5 grams
Hydroquinone 3.5 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 10.5 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.4 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

Do not dilute for use.

Agfa 103 Blue-Black Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 3.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 45.0 grams
Hydroquinone 11.5 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 78.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.2 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute one part stock with two parts water.

Agfa 120 is equivalent to Kodak Selectol Soft (no published
formula)
Agfa 125 is equivalent to Kodak D-72/Dektol
Agfa 106 is equivalent to Kodak D-52/Selectol but at half
strength i.e., equivalent to the developer diluted one part
stock to one part water.
Agfa 103 is equivalent to Kodak D-73.

An example of a Glycin warm tone developer is Agfa 115

Agfa 115 Glycin-Hydroquinone Developer for Warm Tones
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 90.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 150.0 ml
Glycin 30.0 grams
Hydroquinone 9.5 grams
Potassium Bromide 4.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute 1 part stock with 3 parts water.
This developer yields warm tones with normal paper exposure
times.

Note that the amount of Potassium Bromide in many print
developers, notabl the Dektol types, is minimal, typically
around 2 grams/liter of stock. This can be increased very
considerably, up to around 12 grams per liter, with
consequent warming of the image tone. There will be some
loss of paper speed as the amount is increased.

For convenience I've copied these formulas from the 1944
edition of the _Photo Lab Index_, however, I have the
original Agfa and Ansco formula booklets and have checked
the formulas with them.
All of the publications for the U.S. market specify sodium
salts for the carbonate and sulfite. However, in my German
edition Potassium salts are indicated in some formulas. I
think this is more a matter of what was available than the
photographic effect.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA




  #5  
Old March 26th 06, 01:48 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers

I like the tones I get on warmtone and neutral tone papers with
Ryuji's DS-14. There's additional info that's good reading at:

http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/pr...recommend.html

I gives a nice warm touch to neutral papers and I like the tones it
brings out on warmtone Ilford, too.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:43:48 -0500, "Lew" wrote:

The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I
goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this
make a big difference?
-LS


Craig Schroeder
craig nospam craigschroeder com
  #6  
Old March 26th 06, 03:49 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers

Richard:
Your PLI formula for Agfa 120 is _very_ different from the one in
Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook (p.195) where it's tagged "Brown Tone Paper
Developer." I don't need to soften contrast since I use a diffuser head to
begin with, but I do want to experiment with warm tones.

Anchell's Agfa 120
Water 750gms
Sodium Sulfite 60gms
Hydroquinone 24gms
Potassium carbonate 80gms
Water to 1l

Recommended dilutions are 1:5 and 1:4
-Lew

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
link.net...
Agfa 120 Soft Working Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 12.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 36.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 36.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.8 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute 1 part stock with 2 parts water.



  #7  
Old March 26th 06, 04:00 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers


"Craig Schroeder" wrote in message
...
I like the tones I get on warmtone and neutral tone papers
with
Ryuji's DS-14. There's additional info that's good
reading at:

http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/pr...recommend.html

I gives a nice warm touch to neutral papers and I like the
tones it
brings out on warmtone Ilford, too.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:43:48 -0500, "Lew"
wrote:

The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying
(Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa
120)? Also, I
goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium
carbonate. Will this
make a big difference?
-LS


Craig Schroeder
craig nospam craigschroeder com


A couple of notes: The Agfa 120 formula shown on Ryuji's
site is an old one found in European Agfa literature, it is
not the same as Agfa/Ansco 120 as found in most books. The
old formula is:

Brown Tone Formula No.120
Stock Solution:
Water 1.0 liter
Hydroquinone 24.0 grams
Sodium Sulphite, anydrous 60.0 grams
Potassium Carbonate 80.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.0 grams

The instructions show dilutions from 1 part stock to 2
parts water to 1 part stock to 8 parts water with
recommended exposure increases and development times for
various Agfa papers of the time.
It is curious that the formula shows the hydroquinone
being dissolved before the Sulfite. This makes sense for
Metol because Metol will not dissolve in a strong solution
of sulfite but here, I think one would do better to dissolve
the sulfite first.
I have no idea how practical this formula is for current
materials.

Another Agfa developer which is similar to the above but
is found in American literature is:

Agfa 110 Direct Brown Black Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Hydroquinone 22.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 57.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 57.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.75 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute one part stock with 5 parts water.
Give prints 3 to 4 times normal exposure and develop for 5
to 7 minutes at 68F

Ryuji is a very knowledgible chemist so I his formulas
are certainly worth trying out.

A further note: I gave the formula for Agfa 106 and stated
it was similar to Kodak D-52/Selectol but at about half
strength. I overlooked Agfa formula 135 which is essentially
identical to D-52, it is shown below:

Agfa 135 Warm Tone Developer
Water (125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 1.6 grams
Sodium Sulfite 24.0 grams
Hydroquinone 6.6 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 24.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.8 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute 1 part stock with 1 part water.
To increase warmth increase bromide up to double the amount
shown in the formula.

I can not find Agfa 123 in my collection.

Another European Agfa formula that may be of some
interest is NO.122. This, like Agfa 115, which I posted
before, is a Glycin and Hydroquinone developer but the
proportions are different.

Agfa No.122 Brown Tone Developer
Water 1.0 liter
Sodium Sulphite, anhydrous 27.5 grams
Glycin 5.0 grams
Hydroquinone 10.0 grams
Potassium Carbonate 50.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 5.0 grams

Less Bromide makes tones browner, more Bromide makes tones
redder.
Dilution instructions state that the developer should be
used undiluted with normal print exposure and about 1.5
minutes development time for warm black tones on warm tone
paper. Dilution can be increased up to 1 to 8 for reddish
tones. At this dilution papers require 10 times normal
exposure and development time is about 12 minutes.
Again, I have no idea of how practical this formula is for
modern materials. If anyone tries it please let me know.
The source booklet was printed in Berlin c.1936. Internal
evidence, such as the use of the term "dish" for a tray, my
guess is that it was intended for England.



--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #8  
Old March 26th 06, 10:22 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers


Lew wrote:
Richard:
Your PLI formula for Agfa 120 is _very_ different from the one in
Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook (p.195) where it's tagged "Brown Tone Paper
Developer." I don't need to soften contrast since I use a diffuser head to
begin with, but I do want to experiment with warm tones.

Anchell's Agfa 120
Water 750gms
Sodium Sulfite 60gms
Hydroquinone 24gms
Potassium carbonate 80gms
Water to 1l

Recommended dilutions are 1:5 and 1:4
-Lew

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
link.net...
Agfa 120 Soft Working Paper Developer
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 12.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 36.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 36.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.8 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use dilute 1 part stock with 2 parts water.


See my other post in this thread.
Agfa evidently used the same numbers for quite different formulas.
No.120 as given by Anchell is from booklet published in Berlin and
apparently aimed at the
British market. The other 120 formula is from American formula books.
There are a couple of other duplicated formula numbers.

--
Richard Knoppow


  #9  
Old March 27th 06, 06:07 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Default Warm tone papers and developers

Hi,

What should I know about this Agfa 120? It can't be available anymore
since Agfa gave up on us, unless you have a stash. The warm tone
developer I use is AGFA Neutal WA. I'm down to my two 500ml bottles
Neutal WA. For me Neutal WA and Agfa Classic and 1:9 Selelium is the
wand for making magic.

Now Agfa is kaput. Have to get a new wand

Cheers,
Bogdan

Lew wrote:

The instruction sheets for the two papers I'll be trying (Arista & Forte)
recommend Dektol, why not a warm tone developer (like Agfa 120)? Also, I
goofed and mixed the120 with sodium, not potassium carbonate. Will this
make a big difference?
-LS



--
__________________________________________________ ________________
Bogdan Karasek
Montr‚al, Qu‚bec e-mail:
Canada

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darber muss man schweigen"
"What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence"
Ludwig Wittgenstein
__________________________________________________ ______________

  #10  
Old March 27th 06, 02:02 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
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Posts: n/a
Default Warm tone papers and developers

In article ,
Bogdan Karasek wrote:

Hi,

What should I know about this Agfa 120? It can't be available anymore
since Agfa gave up on us, unless you have a stash. The warm tone
developer I use is AGFA Neutal WA. I'm down to my two 500ml bottles
Neutal WA. For me Neutal WA and Agfa Classic and 1:9 Selelium is the
wand for making magic.

Now Agfa is kaput. Have to get a new wand

Cheers,
Bogdan


Formulate.
--
The things we hate most in life often turn out to be a mirror image
of ourselves. But if your going to hate someone Matt Clara says its
ok to hate him.

Findmedirectly - "infoatgregblankphoto.com"
 




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