Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.

you're wrong. it is true.

that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.

That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

You are confusing the RGB image with the raw sensor data.

i'm not confusing anything.

Hilarious.

i've been using lightroom since it was beta nearly a decade ago and i
know *very* well how it works.

Hilarious.

You can't change exposure with processing software.

nobody expects it to go back and change the f/stop.

Then stop claiming that software changes exposure. It
doesn't.

And
a curves tool does not change the brightness nor the
contrast of an image as such. It remaps which tonal
levels are assigned to which already defined levels. It
doesn't stretch the range. It technically does not
compress the range either, but the effect is the same.

contrast is just an s curve.

Ahem, contrast and gamma are the same thing. It is not
"just an s curve", it is the slope of the brightness
curve.


--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

indeed it is, but not in the way you might think.

what i described is how lightroom, aperture and photos work. this is a
fact, whether you want to laugh or not.

once again, you've never used any of these apps and don't know what the
hell you're talking about.

that makes everything *you* say about the apps totally hilarious.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.

you're wrong. it is true.

that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.

That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

it's 100% accurate. that's how they work.

you can laugh all you want, but that just makes you look stupid.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

lightroom uses pro photo rgb for all of its calculations.

You are confusing the RGB image with the raw sensor data.

i'm not confusing anything.

Hilarious.

i've been using lightroom since it was beta nearly a decade ago and i
know *very* well how it works.

Hilarious.

what's hilarious is your insistence that you know more about apps
you've never used than the people who actually use them every day.

that's not just hilarious, but it's actually rather ****ed up.

what's even more hilarious is just how wrong you really are and you
don't even realize it.

You can't change exposure with processing software.

nobody expects it to go back and change the f/stop.

Then stop claiming that software changes exposure. It
doesn't.

everyone understands that the exposure slider does not go back in time
and alter the camera's physical settings.

that's something you came up with because you can't to admit that you
have no idea what lightroom does or how it works.

all you're doing is arguing for the sake of arguing.

worse, it completely misses the point and is nothing more than a
diversion on your part because you have no idea what you're talking
about and can't admit it.

your original claim was that exposure and brightness are the same. they
are not.

the slider labeled exposure has a different effect than the slider that
was previously labeled brightness and has now been removed.

On 2014-08-12 22:25:42 +0000, (Floyd L. Davidson) said:

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

Actually Floyd, this time *nospam* is sort of, but not entirely correct.

Most of us who use Lightroom, import RAW files and we choose to either
maintain them as original RAW files, or convert to DNG. All
edits/adjustments are applied to those imported, unconverted RAW files.
All of these adjustments/edits are recorded and stored in the Lightroom
data base as XMP files.
I usually make my adjustments to a "Virtual Copy" of the imported
original, and I can have several virtual copies each as a different
rendition.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.

you're wrong. it is true.

that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.

That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

I have no JPEGs in Lightroom, I only produce JPEGs from NEFs, DNGs,
PSDs, and TIFs in Lightroom when I use the LR export dialog and use one
of my presets to resize, convert to 8-bit JPEG, and sRGB to store in
the location I choose.
Here is that export dialog, and as you can see I have quite a few
options including file type, size, dimensions, color space, levels of
metadata I can include, etc.
So in this case the 108 MB, ProPhoto RGB, 4952x3569, _DNC2923-edit.tif
is exported to my Dropbox Public folder as the 817kb, sRGB, 1304x940,
_DNC2923-edit-1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_842.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/_DNC2923-Edit-1.jpg

All the adjustments made in Lightroom are to RAW files unless an
external processor such as Photoshop has been used then Lightroom acts
as a RAW processor and converts, usually to 16-bit TIF with a preferred
color space of ProPhoto RGB. A TIF, or PSD would be saved back to
Lightroom from the external editor.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

ProPhoto RGB is recommended for use by Lightroom when it is used to
convert an adjusted RAW file for use in an external editor such as
Photoshop, or any of a number of plug-ins which Lightroom sees as
external editors. There is no colorspace reference when
editing/adjusting RAW files in Lightroom/ Any JPEGS which find their
way to LR are adjusted in the colorspace that was used in their
creation.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article 2014081216200784417-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

Actually Floyd, this time *nospam* is sort of, but not entirely correct.

what parts aren't?

Most of us who use Lightroom, import RAW files and we choose to either
maintain them as original RAW files, or convert to DNG. All
edits/adjustments are applied to those imported, unconverted RAW files.
All of these adjustments/edits are recorded and stored in the Lightroom
data base as XMP files.

correct.

I usually make my adjustments to a "Virtual Copy" of the imported
original, and I can have several virtual copies each as a different
rendition.

virtual copies are a benefit from keeping everything in raw, but it's
not required to use it.

i make a virtual copy when i want to have multiple versions of one
image but most of the time there's no need.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.

you're wrong. it is true.

that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.

That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

I have no JPEGs in Lightroom, I only produce JPEGs from NEFs, DNGs,
PSDs, and TIFs in Lightroom when I use the LR export dialog and use one
of my presets to resize, convert to 8-bit JPEG, and sRGB to store in
the location I choose.

that's a typical workflow.

Here is that export dialog, and as you can see I have quite a few
options including file type, size, dimensions, color space, levels of
metadata I can include, etc.
So in this case the 108 MB, ProPhoto RGB, 4952x3569, _DNC2923-edit.tif
is exported to my Dropbox Public folder as the 817kb, sRGB, 1304x940,
_DNC2923-edit-1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_842.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/_DNC2923-Edit-1.jpg

All the adjustments made in Lightroom are to RAW files unless an
external processor such as Photoshop has been used then Lightroom acts
as a RAW processor and converts, usually to 16-bit TIF with a preferred
color space of ProPhoto RGB. A TIF, or PSD would be saved back to
Lightroom from the external editor.

in some cases, it does not need an interim file since adobe makes both
apps.

either way, lightroom manages everything and the user does not need to
worry about what goes on under the hood. it all 'just works'.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

ProPhoto RGB is recommended for use by Lightroom when it is used to
convert an adjusted RAW file for use in an external editor such as
Photoshop, or any of a number of plug-ins which Lightroom sees as
external editors. There is no colorspace reference when
editing/adjusting RAW files in Lightroom/ Any JPEGS which find their
way to LR are adjusted in the colorspace that was used in their
creation.

there is no colourspace for raw. it's basically just a sensor dump and
some additional information.

pro photo is what lightroom uses internally for all calculations.

you don't get to choose the colourspace until you export a file or
generate an interim file. if you don't do either, it's all pro photo.

the former is common, the latter only if the image is round-tripped to
an external editor (and even then not always).

the colourspace you choose on export for a given file is separate and
relevant to only the file(s) you're exporting. a conversion is done at
the time of export from pro photo rgb, typically to srgb for posting
online. interim files are almost always pro photo rgb, and no
conversion is needed.

On 2014-08-12 23:36:18 +0000, nospam said:

In article 2014081216200784417-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

Actually Floyd, this time *nospam* is sort of, but not entirely correct.

what parts aren't?

Most of us who use Lightroom, import RAW files and we choose to either
maintain them as original RAW files, or convert to DNG. All
edits/adjustments are applied to those imported, unconverted RAW files.
All of these adjustments/edits are recorded and stored in the Lightroom
data base as XMP files.

correct.

I usually make my adjustments to a "Virtual Copy" of the imported
original, and I can have several virtual copies each as a different
rendition.

virtual copies are a benefit from keeping everything in raw, but it's
not required to use it.

Agreed, but it is easy enough to do and there is no time cost involved
to do so. That is how I do things.

i make a virtual copy when i want to have multiple versions of one
image but most of the time there's no need.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.

you're wrong. it is true.

that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.

That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

I have no JPEGs in Lightroom, I only produce JPEGs from NEFs, DNGs,
PSDs, and TIFs in Lightroom when I use the LR export dialog and use one
of my presets to resize, convert to 8-bit JPEG, and sRGB to store in
the location I choose.

that's a typical workflow.

Here is that export dialog, and as you can see I have quite a few
options including file type, size, dimensions, color space, levels of
metadata I can include, etc.
So in this case the 108 MB, ProPhoto RGB, 4952x3569, _DNC2923-edit.tif
is exported to my Dropbox Public folder as the 817kb, sRGB, 1304x940,
_DNC2923-edit-1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_842.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/_DNC2923-Edit-1.jpg

All the adjustments made in Lightroom are to RAW files unless an
external processor such as Photoshop has been used then Lightroom acts
as a RAW processor and converts, usually to 16-bit TIF with a preferred
color space of ProPhoto RGB. A TIF, or PSD would be saved back to
Lightroom from the external editor.

in some cases, it does not need an interim file since adobe makes both
apps.

If you are making the round trip LR-PS-LR you will get a TIF opening
in PS, and a TIF/ or layered PSD saved back to LR. There is no way to
take an unconverted RAW file from LR to PS. LR is the RAW convertor in
this case.

You can forego the interim file if you are working with a JPEG, TIF, or PSD.

either way, lightroom manages everything and the user does not need to
worry about what goes on under the hood. it all 'just works'.

Inquiring minds want to know, that way we can know when we are sniffing BS.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

ProPhoto RGB is recommended for use by Lightroom when it is used to
convert an adjusted RAW file for use in an external editor such as
Photoshop, or any of a number of plug-ins which Lightroom sees as
external editors. There is no colorspace reference when
editing/adjusting RAW files in Lightroom/ Any JPEGS which find their
way to LR are adjusted in the colorspace that was used in their
creation.

there is no colourspace for raw. it's basically just a sensor dump and
some additional information.

Exactly that is what Floyd was saying and you insisted his position was
not true.

pro photo is what lightroom uses internally for all calculations.

Only for those files which are to be used in an external editor such as
PS, and have made the return trip to be further adjusted in LR.

you don't get to choose the colourspace until you export a file or
generate an interim file.

Yup!

if you don't do either, it's all pro photo.

Nope, this is where you are wrong. there is no colorspace assigned to
RAW or DNG files being adjusted in LR just as there is none used for
ACR. when making adjustments to RAW files prior to conversion. The
colorspace is only set on conversion.

the former is common, the latter only if the image is round-tripped to
an external editor (and even then not always).

Huh?

the colourspace you choose on export for a given file is separate and
relevant to only the file(s) you're exporting. a conversion is done at
the time of export from pro photo rgb, typically to srgb for posting
online. interim files are almost always pro photo rgb, and no
conversion is needed.

You do understand I do this on a daily basis, don't you?
....and like you I have been using LR since the Beta.

BTW: your spelling of "colourspace" seems to indicate that you have
origins other than the USA. Are you perhaps a resident of the Great
White North, or an ex-pat from Fair Albion, or other lands with an
anglo education?


--
Regards,

Savageduck

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

indeed it is, but not in the way you might think.

what i described is how lightroom, aperture and photos work. this is a
fact, whether you want to laugh or not.

once again, you've never used any of these apps and don't know what the
hell you're talking about.

that makes everything *you* say about the apps totally hilarious.

It isn't a fact at all. "All adjustments" are applied *after*
the data is demosaiced. It *cannot* be appled to the raw data.

it takes only a very slight knowledge of image data editing to
know that.

it's 100% accurate. that's how they work.

you can laugh all you want, but that just makes you look stupid.

If you take even a brief look at the source code to any
raw converter you'll see that it is 100% wrong.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

lightroom uses pro photo rgb for all of its calculations.

Not for raw sensor data. Look at the name: "pro photo *R* *G* *B*".

You do realize that RGB is not what raw sensor data is,
but it is the encoding used for the output of the
demosiac/interpolation/convert algorithm

what's hilarious is your insistence that you know more about apps
you've never used than the people who actually use them every day.

that's not just hilarious, but it's actually rather ****ed up.

Turns out the one who is wrong is you.

everyone understands that the exposure slider does not go back in time
and alter the camera's physical settings.

that's something you came up with because you can't to admit that you
have no idea what lightroom does or how it works.

all you're doing is arguing for the sake of arguing.

The software does not change exposure, it changes the
brightness level.

That is not an opinion. It isn't an argument. It's a
well known fact.

worse, it completely misses the point and is nothing more than a
diversion on your part because you have no idea what you're talking
about and can't admit it.

your original claim was that exposure and brightness are the same. they
are not.

I have never said any such thing. I've posted that they
are not in dozens upon dozens of artcles on the
Internet, including this thread.

the slider labeled exposure has a different effect than the slider that
was previously labeled brightness and has now been removed.

But they both change brightness, and neither affects
exposure.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Savageduck wrote:
On 2014-08-12 22:25:42 +0000, (Floyd L. Davidson) said:

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:
But if it has been converted, and is now being
edited...
it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied
to the raw data.
Hilarious.

Actually Floyd, this time *nospam* is sort of, but not entirely correct.

He isn't even close. He is making wild statements that
are so confused compared to reality that it is actually
obnoxious to have someone confusing others.

Most of us who use Lightroom, import RAW files and we
choose to either maintain them as original RAW files, or
convert to DNG. All edits/adjustments are applied to
those imported, unconverted RAW files. All of these
adjustments/edits are recorded and stored in the
Lightroom data base as XMP files.

Those adjustments are *never* applied to the raw sensor
data. They are applied to the RGB data produced by
converting the Bayer Color Filter Array encoded color to
RGB encoded color.

I usually make my adjustments to a "Virtual Copy" of the
imported original, and I can have several virtual copies
each as a different rendition.

Irrelevant.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.
you're wrong. it is true.
that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.
That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

I have no JPEGs in Lightroom, I only produce JPEGs from
NEFs, DNGs, PSDs, and TIFs in Lightroom when I use the
LR export dialog and use one of my presets to resize,
convert to 8-bit JPEG, and sRGB to store in the location
I choose.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Here is that export dialog, and as you can see I have
quite a few options including file type, size,
dimensions, color space, levels of metadata I can
include, etc.

What you can export is of no significance. What can you
import? (Not what *do* you import, but what *can* you
import.)

So in this case the 108 MB, ProPhoto RGB, 4952x3569,
_DNC2923-edit.tif is exported to my Dropbox Public
folder as the 817kb, sRGB, 1304x940,
_DNC2923-edit-1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_842.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/_DNC2923-Edit-1.jpg

All the adjustments made in Lightroom are to RAW files

But that is not the issue, though you aren't quite correct
anyway.

All color, brightness, and gamma adjustments are made to
an RGB data set. You are saying that your workflow
always involves deriving the RGB data set from a RAW
file that is first converted. What was claimed is that
the adjustments are applied to the raw sensor data from
the RAW file *before* it is converted to RGB data. That
does not happen with anything relating to color.

unless an external processor such as Photoshop has been
used then Lightroom acts as a RAW processor and
converts, usually to 16-bit TIF with a preferred color
space of ProPhoto RGB. A TIF, or PSD would be saved back
to Lightroom from the external editor.

Yes, but that isn't what is at issue.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.
the colour space used is pro photo rgb.
Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

ProPhoto RGB is recommended for use by Lightroom when it
is used to convert an adjusted RAW file for use in an

It is applied to RGB image data, not to the RAW file's
raw sensor data. The fact that it was used might get
written to the RAW file, but the RGB image data is never
written back to the RAW file (by external converters, as
opposed to the in camera RAW converter that does embed
JPEG images).

external editor such as Photoshop, or any of a number of
plug-ins which Lightroom sees as external editors. There
is no colorspace reference when editing/adjusting RAW
files in Lightroom/ Any JPEGS which find their way to LR
are adjusted in the colorspace that was used in their
creation.

Or converted...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 2014-08-13 00:37:53 +0000, (Floyd L. Davidson) said:

Savageduck wrote:
On 2014-08-12 22:25:42 +0000, (Floyd L. Davidson) said:

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:
But if it has been converted, and is now being
edited...
it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied
to the raw data.
Hilarious.

Actually Floyd, this time *nospam* is sort of, but not entirely correct.

He isn't even close. He is making wild statements that
are so confused compared to reality that it is actually
obnoxious to have someone confusing others.

Most of us who use Lightroom, import RAW files and we
choose to either maintain them as original RAW files, or
convert to DNG. All edits/adjustments are applied to
those imported, unconverted RAW files. All of these
adjustments/edits are recorded and stored in the
Lightroom data base as XMP files.

Those adjustments are *never* applied to the raw sensor
data. They are applied to the RGB data produced by
converting the Bayer Color Filter Array encoded color to
RGB encoded color.

In Lightroom there is no conversion of the RAW file until the adjusted
image file is converted for use in an external editor.
For those RAW files not converted they, remain unmolested and the
adjustments and edits are retained in XMP files.

I usually make my adjustments to a "Virtual Copy" of the
imported original, and I can have several virtual copies
each as a different rendition.

Irrelevant.

I guess so, just my workflow.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.
you're wrong. it is true.
that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.
That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

I have no JPEGs in Lightroom, I only produce JPEGs from
NEFs, DNGs, PSDs, and TIFs in Lightroom when I use the
LR export dialog and use one of my presets to resize,
convert to 8-bit JPEG, and sRGB to store in the location
I choose.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Not really.

Here is that export dialog, and as you can see I have
quite a few options including file type, size,
dimensions, color space, levels of metadata I can
include, etc.

What you can export is of no significance.

Ok.

What can you import? (Not what *do* you import, but what *can* you
import.)

NEF, CR2, RAF, AFW, DNG and other RAW files in addition to all the
usual suspects JPEG, JPEG2000, PSD, TIFF, PNG, GIF, et al.

So in this case the 108 MB, ProPhoto RGB, 4952x3569,
_DNC2923-edit.tif is exported to my Dropbox Public
folder as the 817kb, sRGB, 1304x940,
_DNC2923-edit-1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_842.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/_DNC2923-Edit-1.jpg

All the adjustments made in Lightroom are to RAW files

But that is not the issue, though you aren't quite correct
anyway.

Well all the adjustments I make in Lightroom are made to the RAW file.

All color, brightness, and gamma adjustments are made to
an RGB data set. You are saying that your workflow
always involves deriving the RGB data set from a RAW
file that is first converted.

I didn't say that. I apply the adjustments to an unconverted RAW file,
for all of its life in my Lightroom library it remains the same
unmolested RAW file with th adjustments recorded in an XMP file. It is
converted if I choose to use an external editor.

What was claimed is that the adjustments are applied to the raw sensor
data from
the RAW file *before* it is converted to RGB data. That
does not happen with anything relating to color.

In Lightroom it does.

unless an external processor such as Photoshop has been
used then Lightroom acts as a RAW processor and
converts, usually to 16-bit TIF with a preferred color
space of ProPhoto RGB. A TIF, or PSD would be saved back
to Lightroom from the external editor.

Yes, but that isn't what is at issue.

If you don't want it to be, so be it.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.
the colour space used is pro photo rgb.
Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

ProPhoto RGB is recommended for use by Lightroom when it
is used to convert an adjusted RAW file for use in an

It is applied to RGB image data, not to the RAW file's
raw sensor data. The fact that it was used might get
written to the RAW file, but the RGB image data is never
written back to the RAW file (by external converters, as
opposed to the in camera RAW converter that does embed
JPEG images).

Agreed, the RAW file remains intact as it was imported. The adjustments
are applied to and recorded in an XML file much as they would be in ACR
prior to conversion.

external editor such as Photoshop, or any of a number of
plug-ins which Lightroom sees as external editors. There
is no colorspace reference when editing/adjusting RAW
files in Lightroom/ Any JPEGS which find their way to LR
are adjusted in the colorspace that was used in their
creation.

Or converted...

Whatever.

One other area where *nospam* is correct, is you have no idea of how
Lightroom functions, or just how folks use it either as a primary
editor, or as a RAW convertor, or both. These days I seldom use ACR in
my RAW workflow except as a Photoshop filter

--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being edited...

it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied to the raw data.

Hilarious.

indeed it is, but not in the way you might think.

what i described is how lightroom, aperture and photos work. this is a
fact, whether you want to laugh or not.

once again, you've never used any of these apps and don't know what the
hell you're talking about.

that makes everything *you* say about the apps totally hilarious.

It isn't a fact at all.

it is.

that's how lightroom works.

"All adjustments" are applied *after*
the data is demosaiced. It *cannot* be appled to the raw data.

the demosaicing is a step that's automatically included and your
nitpicking does not change anything.

it is *not* a separate step as far as the user is concerned (which is
all that matters).

it takes only a very slight knowledge of image data editing to
know that.

it takes only a very slight knowledge of lightroom to know what it's
doing.

you've never used it, so you don't know.

it's 100% accurate. that's how they work.

you can laugh all you want, but that just makes you look stupid.

If you take even a brief look at the source code to any
raw converter you'll see that it is 100% wrong.

there's no need to look at any source code nor should anyone need to do
that to know what it does.

lightroom and similar apps work by working with the raw file.

there are no conversions to intermediate files unless the user is
round-tripping to an external editor. lightroom may also generate cache
and preview files for speed and responsiveness of the app.

what other raw converters do is not relevant.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.

the colour space used is pro photo rgb.

Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

lightroom uses pro photo rgb for all of its calculations.

Not for raw sensor data. Look at the name: "pro photo *R* *G* *B*".

it's used for calculations.

however, as it turns out the internal space is actually a different
colour space although very similar to pro photo rgb.

it's also something that makes no tangible difference.

You do realize that RGB is not what raw sensor data is,
but it is the encoding used for the output of the
demosiac/interpolation/convert algorithm

of course, and that doesn't change anything.

the rgb conversion is part of the internal calculations that are done
to the raw. it's not a separate step.

what's hilarious is your insistence that you know more about apps
you've never used than the people who actually use them every day.

that's not just hilarious, but it's actually rather ****ed up.

Turns out the one who is wrong is you.

what i've said is not wrong.

you are intentionally nitpicking over trivialities that do not matter.

everyone understands that the exposure slider does not go back in time
and alter the camera's physical settings.

that's something you came up with because you can't to admit that you
have no idea what lightroom does or how it works.

all you're doing is arguing for the sake of arguing.

The software does not change exposure, it changes the
brightness level.

nope. brightness is something *else* and lightroom no longer uses
brightness anymore.

brightness can be put back with pv2010 but that's not a good idea. that
option is available for compatibility purposes.

anyway, take two photos, one normally exposed (whatever that may be for
a given scene) and one overexposed by 1 stop in the camera, then take
the normally exposed photo and add 1 stop in lightroom.

they will look the same.

*that* is why it's called exposure.

it's also very, very good.

That is not an opinion. It isn't an argument. It's a
well known fact.

yet it's wrong.

lightroom does *not* adjust brightness. period.

worse, it completely misses the point and is nothing more than a
diversion on your part because you have no idea what you're talking
about and can't admit it.

your original claim was that exposure and brightness are the same. they
are not.

I have never said any such thing. I've posted that they
are not in dozens upon dozens of artcles on the
Internet, including this thread.

you said the exposure slider adjusts brightness. it doesn't.

they're similar, but not the same.

the slider labeled exposure has a different effect than the slider that
was previously labeled brightness and has now been removed.

But they both change brightness, and neither affects
exposure.

exposure is similar to but not the same as brightness.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

But if it has been converted, and is now being
edited...
it hasn't been converted. all adjustments are applied
to the raw data.
Hilarious.

Actually Floyd, this time *nospam* is sort of, but not entirely correct.

He isn't even close. He is making wild statements that
are so confused compared to reality that it is actually
obnoxious to have someone confusing others.

my statements are accurate.

what's confusing to others is someone who has *not* used lightroom
telling people what it does and doesn't do.

the only thing i got wrong was which internal colour space is used,
which doesn't actually make a difference.

Most of us who use Lightroom, import RAW files and we
choose to either maintain them as original RAW files, or
convert to DNG. All edits/adjustments are applied to
those imported, unconverted RAW files. All of these
adjustments/edits are recorded and stored in the
Lightroom data base as XMP files.

Those adjustments are *never* applied to the raw sensor
data. They are applied to the RGB data produced by
converting the Bayer Color Filter Array encoded color to
RGB encoded color.

that's a ridiculous nitpick.

the user does not make a separate conversion to rgb.

they import a raw, adjust various parameters and lightroom does the
necessary calculations.

as far as the user is concerned (which is all that matters) is they're
working directly with the raw.

I usually make my adjustments to a "Virtual Copy" of the
imported original, and I can have several virtual copies
each as a different rendition.

Irrelevant.

it's relevant in that virtual copies are a benefit of not converting
the raw data until exporting.

however, virtual copies are not needed in a normal workflow.

there is no jpeg until the user exports one, and that's if they decide
to do that. they might not, which means there won't ever be a jpeg.

Also "everything is done in raw" is just not true.
you're wrong. it is true.
that's how lightroom (and aperture) works.
That is an abjectly ignorant statement.

I have no JPEGs in Lightroom, I only produce JPEGs from
NEFs, DNGs, PSDs, and TIFs in Lightroom when I use the
LR export dialog and use one of my presets to resize,
convert to 8-bit JPEG, and sRGB to store in the location
I choose.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

actually it is relevant.

that can only be done if no conversion was done earlier in the workflow.

Here is that export dialog, and as you can see I have
quite a few options including file type, size,
dimensions, color space, levels of metadata I can
include, etc.

What you can export is of no significance.

it is, because it shows that the data is never converted until it's
exported.

What can you
import? (Not what *do* you import, but what *can* you
import.)

that does not matter whatsoever.

nevertheless, lightroom can import all known raw file formats, jpeg,
tiff, dng, standard video formats and more.

it doesn't care and the workflow is the same (other than video for
obvious reasons).

So in this case the 108 MB, ProPhoto RGB, 4952x3569,
_DNC2923-edit.tif is exported to my Dropbox Public
folder as the 817kb, sRGB, 1304x940,
_DNC2923-edit-1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_842.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/_DNC2923-Edit-1.jpg

All the adjustments made in Lightroom are to RAW files

But that is not the issue, though you aren't quite correct
anyway.

it is the issue and he's correct, as am i.

again, you've never used lightroom yet you keep telling people who use
it how it works, and you're mostly wrong.

All color, brightness, and gamma adjustments are made to
an RGB data set. You are saying that your workflow
always involves deriving the RGB data set from a RAW
file that is first converted. What was claimed is that
the adjustments are applied to the raw sensor data from
the RAW file *before* it is converted to RGB data. That
does not happen with anything relating to color.

the rgb conversion is never specified. obviously it has to be done but
it's not a separate step to the user.

to the user, everything is done to the raw data.

unless an external processor such as Photoshop has been
used then Lightroom acts as a RAW processor and
converts, usually to 16-bit TIF with a preferred color
space of ProPhoto RGB. A TIF, or PSD would be saved back
to Lightroom from the external editor.

Yes, but that isn't what is at issue.

There is
not color space for raw sensor data either.
the colour space used is pro photo rgb.
Not for raw sensor data it isn't.

ProPhoto RGB is recommended for use by Lightroom when it
is used to convert an adjusted RAW file for use in an

It is applied to RGB image data, not to the RAW file's
raw sensor data. The fact that it was used might get
written to the RAW file, but the RGB image data is never
written back to the RAW file (by external converters, as
opposed to the in camera RAW converter that does embed
JPEG images).

it's applied to the raw data.

external editor such as Photoshop, or any of a number of
plug-ins which Lightroom sees as external editors. There
is no colorspace reference when editing/adjusting RAW
files in Lightroom/ Any JPEGS which find their way to LR
are adjusted in the colorspace that was used in their
creation.

Or converted...

no.