Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

On 8/13/2014 9:48 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2014-08-13 13:33:45 +0000, PeterN said:

On 8/12/2014 11:12 PM, nospam wrote:
In article 2014081217184870530-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

snip

BTW: your spelling of "colourspace" seems to indicate that you have
origins other than the USA. Are you perhaps a resident of the Great
White North, or an ex-pat from Fair Albion, or other lands with an
anglo education?

neither. i prefer that spelling.


Then it's an affactation. Just as your refusal to properly capitalize.

It makes you think that if you ever sat down and had a face to face
conversation with *nospam* he would sound as though he had stepped out
of a Manchester pub.
...and talk entirely in lower case.


BFG

--
PeterN

Sandman wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Savageduck:
I record 14-Bit NEFs on my DSLR. I adjust those 14-bit RAW files
in either LR or ACR. After conversion I work in 16-bit mode. The
only time I work in 8-bit is the occasional jpeg. All of my
images in LR are either NEF, CR2, DNG, 16-bit PSD, or 16-bit
TIF. My 8-bit JPEGs are produced via the LR export dialog and
exist elsewhere. I don't have an 8-bit workflow until I export
from LR to produce a JPEG version of what is in my LR catalog.

Sandman:
But that's not the point. In Lightroom the workflow is always 8
bit. Your monitor can only show you 8 bit of color information
from your 14 bit images.

This is from the guy who claims to know all about Lightroom, because
he has used it so much and for so long.

Man, you're so lost that you can't even keep apart claims made by two
different persons.

Two of you saying the same thing doesn't change it.

The actual facts are that Lightroom can work in 16 bit mode, even if
the monitor is only 6 bits (not 8, 6). And even if the displayed
histograms show 8 bit data. The image data is in 16 bits.

Captain Irrelevant strikes again.

Do you really thing that is irrelevant???

The idea that it uses only 8 bit depth internally is just dead wrong.
The idea that it is true because the monitor has only 8 bits is
more than wrong. It's stupid.

Sandman:
That's why a histogram has only 255 levels of data. That's why
curve points have X/Y values of 0-255. Because your monitor can't
show you any more data. So regardless of the amount of data in the
RAW files, your eyes will never ever see any more than 8 bits of
data when using a monitor. That's the entire point of this thread.

That's not true.

100% true.

In your mind. You can't actually tell from the histogram if it
represents 255 levels of data, or more. The histogram is not labeled,
and some are not linear (camera histograms, for example).

In virtually every editor that uses 16 bit depth data the histogram
looks exactly the same when the editor is switched to editing in 8 bit
depth data.

Sandman:
Then you still don't understand it. I didn't adjust it *down* I
adjusted it to the *right*

Here's another image to show the difference:

http://sandman.net/files/normal_vs_extended.png

Imagine that! The left side shows an 8 bit histogram, and the right
side shows a 16 bit histogram.

Yes, imagine that.

It is exactly what you said doesn't exist.

Sandman:
On the left, you see the normal 0-255 range of 8 bit data and on
the left you see the extended range of data. Note how the
histogram in the left image is shown in a lighter part of the
right image. This means that the point value is *higher* than 255.

More than 8 bits...

Duuuuh.

You're like a really slow kid that joins a discussion late and comes in
drooling and just repeating what other people have said for the last 30
minutes or so.

When you first say something doesn't exist, and then
post proof that it does, who is the slow one?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Sandman wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Eric Stevens:
So what does the 'exposure' control do to the image?

Increases image brightness.

Incorrect.

Call it increased intensity then.

One thing is positive, it isn't changing the exposure.

Man, you're so way out of your league here that it's not even funny. It's
just sad to see you try to hold still not to break through the thin ice
upon which you're standing.

Gratuitous personal insults won't make your illogical statements
anywhere near valid. They do help others to judge your integrity
though.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Savageduck:
I record 14-Bit NEFs on my DSLR. I adjust those
14-bit RAW files in either LR or ACR. After conversion I
work in 16-bit mode. The only time I work in 8-bit is the
occasional jpeg. All of my images in LR are either NEF, CR2,
DNG, 16-bit PSD, or 16-bit TIF. My 8-bit JPEGs are produced
via the LR export dialog and exist elsewhere. I don't have
an 8-bit workflow until I export from LR to produce a JPEG
version of what is in my LR catalog.

Sandman:
But that's not the point. In Lightroom the workflow
is always 8 bit. Your monitor can only show you 8 bit of color
information from your 14 bit images.

Floyd L. Davidson:
This is from the guy who claims to know all about Lightroom,
because he has used it so much and for so long.

Sandman:
Man, you're so lost that you can't even keep apart claims made by
two different persons.

Two of you saying the same thing doesn't change it.

Here's where I offer you a million dollars for a quote of me saying the
same - i.e. that I know all about Lightroom because I've used it for so
long.

This is also where you run away with your tail between your legs.

Floyd L. Davidson:
The actual facts are that Lightroom can work in 16 bit mode,
even if the monitor is only 6 bits (not 8, 6). And even if the
displayed histograms show 8 bit data. The image data is in 16
bits.

Sandman:
Captain Irrelevant strikes again.

Do you really thing that is irrelevant???

I don't think, I know. What you said above had nothing to do with what you
replied to. It was just an irrelevant block of text.

Sandman:
That's why a histogram has only 255 levels of data.
That's why curve points have X/Y values of 0-255. Because your
monitor can't show you any more data. So regardless of the
amount of data in the RAW files, your eyes will never ever see
any more than 8 bits of data when using a monitor. That's the
entire point of this thread.

Floyd L. Davidson:
That's not true.

Sandman:
100% true.

In your mind.

In the real world.

You can't actually tell from the histogram if it
represents 255 levels of data, or more. The histogram is not
labeled, and some are not linear (camera histograms, for example).

Which is why I'm not telling it from the label on the histogram, ignorant
little boy.

In virtually every editor that uses 16 bit depth data the histogram
looks exactly the same when the editor is switched to editing in 8
bit depth data.

Another bit of irrelevant trivia that have nothing to do with anything that
has been said so far. You're just one big "duuuh" here.

Sandman:
Then you still don't understand it. I didn't adjust
it *down* I adjusted it to the *right*

Here's another image to show the difference:

http://sandman.net/files/normal_vs_extended.png

Floyd L. Davidson:
Imagine that! The left side shows an 8 bit histogram, and the
right side shows a 16 bit histogram.

Sandman:
Yes, imagine that.

It is exactly what you said doesn't exist.

Man, this "English" thing is just way too hard for you, is it? I would try
to explain these things to you if I had any reason to believe you could
grasp even the basics of it, but you're the one that keep claiming, hehe,
that the Exposure slider is a brightness slider. Yeah, that's the level of
your ignorance.

Sandman:
On the left, you see the normal 0-255 range of 8 bit
data and on the left you see the extended range of data. Note
how the histogram in the left image is shown in a lighter part
of the right image. This means that the point value is
*higher* than 255.

Floyd L. Davidson:
More than 8 bits...

Sandman:
Duuuuh.

You're like a really slow kid that joins a discussion late and
comes in drooling and just repeating what other people have said
for the last 30 minutes or so.

When you first say something doesn't exist, and then post proof that
it does, who is the slow one?

Perhaps you should have an adult read what I've actually written and walk
you through it? I take no responsibility of what I've "said" in your warped
version of reality, Floyd.



--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Eric Stevens:
So what does the 'exposure' control do to the
image?

Floyd L. Davidson:
Increases image brightness.

Sandman:
Incorrect.

Call it increased intensity then.

You can call it whatever you want, you won't get it anyway. Or better yet,
why not give a detailed explanation just what the exposure slider in
Lightroom does, or Aperture.

I know, I know, you can't becaus eyou know nothing about neither
application so you're just here to add white noise about stuff you know
nothing about. Oh, as usual, then.

Sandman:
Man, you're so way out of your league here that it's not even
funny. It's just sad to see you try to hold still not to break
through the thin ice upon which you're standing.

Gratuitous personal insults won't make your illogical statements
anywhere near valid.

My factual statements remain factual regardless of how much fun I am making
of your incorrect statements in the process.

They do help others to judge your integrity though.

I love it ewhen you wannabe trolls start talkign about integrity.


--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Sandman
wrote:

virtual copies are a benefit from keeping everything in raw, but
it's not required to use it.

Agreed, but it is easy enough to do and there is no time cost
involved to do so. That is how I do things.

So, what *is* a virtual copy? Is it like versions in Aperture, where you
can select "create new version from original" which creates a new unedited
version in the library that you can edit differently than the one you've
already played around with?

yes.

Or is like offline versions, jpg masters that are kept for editing even
when the RAW is unavailable? And when it does get available, the edits use
the RAW instead? Not sure I understand it.

lightroom can do that too, called smart previews.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

"Exposure"
can only be changed with shutter speed and aperture,
before the picture is taken.

in an ideal world, it's correct when taken, but that's almost never the
case, which is why can also be adjusted afterwards.

If the original image was underexposed, changing exposure in the
editor won't enable previously lost details to be recovered from the
deep shadows. Nor, if the original image was overexposed will changing
exposure allow details to be recovered from burned out highlights. All
it will do is raise or lower brightness between the two extremes of
bright and dark.

if it was totally lost you can't, but this isn't about edge cases.

more often than not, detail can be recovered.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

So what does the 'exposure' control do to the image?

Increases image brightness.

false.

the two adjustments are similar, but they are not the same thing.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

So what does the 'exposure' control do to the image?

Increases image brightness.

Incorrect.

Call it increased intensity then.

it's not that either.

One thing is positive, it isn't changing the exposure.

what's clear is that you're wrong and talking out your butt.

brightness and exposure have similar effects, but they are not the same.

adobe has said brightness and exposure are not the same.

Man, you're so way out of your league here that it's not even funny. It's
just sad to see you try to hold still not to break through the thin ice
upon which you're standing.

Gratuitous personal insults won't make your illogical statements
anywhere near valid. They do help others to judge your integrity
though.

that applies to you as well.

what's amusing is that it is you who always insults first.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:


The actual facts are that Lightroom can work in 16 bit
mode, even if the monitor is only 6 bits (not 8, 6).
And even if the displayed histograms show 8 bit data.
The image data is in 16 bits.

only ****ty displays are 6 bit and the display makes no difference to
the calculations that lightroom does anyway, or any other software for
that matter.

lightroom calculates in 32 bit floating point or 16 bit integer,
depending on the specific calculation.