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Evil Apple in trouble again



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 13th 12, 05:18 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Bowser
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Posts: 231
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:32:35 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Bowser
wrote:

Irrelevant. Price fixing is against the law. If they broke the law,
they get punished and they stop conspiring to fix prices. Apple is
just another corporation now, nothing more, nothing less, and needs to
be policed like any other huge corporation that will resort to
anything to turn a buck.


so how is it amazon gets a free ride for selling at a loss to kill off
competition? i don't see anyone going after them.


Amazon is also irrelevant in this case. This is about Apple and price
fixing. Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.
What they're doing may be illegal, but that's up to the DoJ to
determine, not me. Sometimes it takes a long time to monitor and
collect evidence in a case like Amazon's. Also, can you prove that
Amazon is dumping to eliminate competition?
  #2  
Old April 13th 12, 08:15 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

In article , Bowser
wrote:

Irrelevant. Price fixing is against the law. If they broke the law,
they get punished and they stop conspiring to fix prices. Apple is
just another corporation now, nothing more, nothing less, and needs to
be policed like any other huge corporation that will resort to
anything to turn a buck.


so how is it amazon gets a free ride for selling at a loss to kill off
competition? i don't see anyone going after them.


Amazon is also irrelevant in this case.


amazon is very relevant. they are the reason this came about.

This is about Apple and price fixing.


what price did apple fix and how did they fix that price when they
weren't at the meetings where the price fixing supposedly took place?

Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.


they're price dumping.

What they're doing may be illegal, but that's up to the DoJ to
determine, not me.


why aren't they going after them?

Sometimes it takes a long time to monitor and
collect evidence in a case like Amazon's. Also, can you prove that
Amazon is dumping to eliminate competition?


it's well known.
  #3  
Old April 15th 12, 02:43 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Bowser
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Posts: 231
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:15:04 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Bowser
wrote:

Irrelevant. Price fixing is against the law. If they broke the law,
they get punished and they stop conspiring to fix prices. Apple is
just another corporation now, nothing more, nothing less, and needs to
be policed like any other huge corporation that will resort to
anything to turn a buck.

so how is it amazon gets a free ride for selling at a loss to kill off
competition? i don't see anyone going after them.


Amazon is also irrelevant in this case.


amazon is very relevant. they are the reason this came about.


Only in that they may be price fixing in collusion with Apple. They're
dumping tactics, if they actually exist, are irrelevant.


This is about Apple and price fixing.


what price did apple fix and how did they fix that price when they
weren't at the meetings where the price fixing supposedly took place?


ebooks, from what I understand. Who cares how they do it?


Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.


they're price dumping.


OK, prove it.


What they're doing may be illegal, but that's up to the DoJ to
determine, not me.


why aren't they going after them?


Maybe they need proof.


Sometimes it takes a long time to monitor and
collect evidence in a case like Amazon's. Also, can you prove that
Amazon is dumping to eliminate competition?


it's well known.


Anecdotal. Provide proof. I dare you to stand before a judge and say
something like that. you'll get laughed out of court.
  #4  
Old April 16th 12, 04:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

In article , Bowser
wrote:

Irrelevant. Price fixing is against the law. If they broke the law,
they get punished and they stop conspiring to fix prices. Apple is
just another corporation now, nothing more, nothing less, and needs to
be policed like any other huge corporation that will resort to
anything to turn a buck.

so how is it amazon gets a free ride for selling at a loss to kill off
competition? i don't see anyone going after them.

Amazon is also irrelevant in this case.


amazon is very relevant. they are the reason this came about.


Only in that they may be price fixing in collusion with Apple.


amazon is not colluding with apple to fix anything.

the case is against apple and five publishers.

They're
dumping tactics, if they actually exist, are irrelevant.


they're not irrelevant at all. that's what started this whole thing.

the complaint mentions amazon nearly 100 times. it's *very* relevant.

This is about Apple and price fixing.


what price did apple fix and how did they fix that price when they
weren't at the meetings where the price fixing supposedly took place?


ebooks, from what I understand.


i didn't say what *product*, i said what *price*. if someone is to be
found guilty of price fixing, shouldn't there be a particular price at
which they fixed?

Who cares how they do it?


how they do it makes a huge difference. the agency model by itself is
not illegal. collusion is.

you ignored the part about the meetings. apple wasn't at the meetings
in new york where this collusion supposedly took place. it's a bit hard
to collude when you're not there to collude. however, there are emails
to and from apple, so they're not totally uninvolved.

the case against the publishers is a lot stronger than apple and not as
cut and dry as people think, especially those who have already found
apple guilty without trial.

Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.


they're price dumping.


OK, prove it.


typical wholesale prices for books are half the cover cost. amazon sold
ebooks at $9.99 regardless of the hardcopy price, which means any book
whose cover price is over $20 most likely has its ebook being sold at
below cost. it's basic math.

What they're doing may be illegal, but that's up to the DoJ to
determine, not me.


why aren't they going after them?


Maybe they need proof.


maybe it was amazon is who pushed the doj to pursue apple and the five
publishers because they saw their monopoly going away.

the publishers are a bit worried too because their role is going away,
eventually.

Sometimes it takes a long time to monitor and
collect evidence in a case like Amazon's. Also, can you prove that
Amazon is dumping to eliminate competition?


it's well known.


Anecdotal. Provide proof. I dare you to stand before a judge and say
something like that. you'll get laughed out of court.


this isn't a courtroom.
  #5  
Old April 16th 12, 05:52 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

In article , tony cooper
wrote:

you ignored the part about the meetings. apple wasn't at the meetings
in new york where this collusion supposedly took place. it's a bit hard
to collude when you're not there to collude. however, there are emails
to and from apple, so they're not totally uninvolved.


There is no requirement for face-to-face meetings for there to be
collusion. It can be done by phone, email, snail mail, or tin cans
connected by string.


that's true, but according to the actual complaint (which is what
matters), the collusion took place at picholene and alto, two
restaurants in new york city, with only publishers in attendance. apple
wasn't there.

it also says there were emails and calls among the various parties,
including apple, so apple is not totally off the hook, it's just that
apple was not at the meetings where it all supposedly went down.
  #6  
Old April 16th 12, 02:31 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Wolfgang Weisselberg
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Posts: 5,285
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

nospam wrote:
In article , Bowser


Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.


they're price dumping.


OK, prove it.


typical wholesale prices for books are half the cover cost.


What cover? Soft cover? Hard cover? Limited Edition cover?
Bibliothecary cover? Signed First Edition cover? Mass market
on bad paper cover?


amazon sold
ebooks at $9.99 regardless of the hardcopy price, which means any book
whose cover price is over $20 most likely has its ebook being sold at
below cost. it's basic math.


Native fallacy.

Baen has long been selling it's own books as ebooks at prices of
$4-6, and bundles of now 7 books (each month's output) for now $18.

The hardcovers are listed at Amazon at over $15. The
softcovers around $10.

That has been going on since December 1999 --- 4 books for $10,
or one for $4.
http://www.baenebooks.com/c-11-1999-...n-bundles.aspx
So you're saying a successful publisher (i.e. someone who lives
from the books, unlike Amazon) has been able to dump prices for
12 plus years in a row *and* has been able to give away for free
a large number of books?

How are they paying the bills?


Has it ever occured to you that an ebook is a completely
different product? Has it ever occured to you that once you
have set up a shop system and ebookized a book you're raking
in money from every sale, can offer the author a larger share
and still make more money per sale than with physical books?

Naah, you'd just harp on Amazon and their inflated ebook costs,
claiming they're price dumping. Maybe you should open your
aperture and increase your exposure time, when you cannot raise
your IQ, ah, ISO.

-Wolfgang
  #7  
Old April 16th 12, 05:14 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
R. Mark Clayton
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Posts: 334
Default Evil Apple in trouble again


"Wolfgang Weisselberg" wrote in message
...
nospam wrote:
In article , Bowser


Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.


they're price dumping.


OK, prove it.


typical wholesale prices for books are half the cover cost.


What cover? Soft cover? Hard cover? Limited Edition cover?
Bibliothecary cover? Signed First Edition cover? Mass market
on bad paper cover?


Any cover. what he said was typical wholesale prices for books are half the
[price printed on the] cover cost.

So a paper back on cheap paper will cost less than a hard-back on cartridge
paper, but the wholesale price will be about half the retail price.



amazon sold
ebooks at $9.99 regardless of the hardcopy price, which means any book
whose cover price is over $20 most likely has its ebook being sold at
below cost. it's basic math.


Absolute nonesense.


The other factor is the print run. Short print runs with real books cost a
great deal of money, but as the production ramps up the cost of production
falls (runs are longer, presses can be bigger etc.)

For an ebook, once the book is ready to sell the marginal cost of every copy
is effectively NIL.


  #8  
Old April 16th 12, 07:01 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Bowser
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Posts: 231
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 23:34:13 -0400, nospam
wrote:



Anecdotal. Provide proof. I dare you to stand before a judge and say
something like that. you'll get laughed out of court.


this isn't a courtroom.


Which accounts for the total and complete lack of facts presented by
you. Not one reference, not one citation, nothing. You could have just
made it all up and nobody would every know the difference, unless they
cared enough to actually research the case. Luckily for all of us, our
courts require facts, not heresay or anectodal evidence.

I guess this is typical for an unmoderated internet forum, no?
  #9  
Old April 16th 12, 08:29 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
David Dyer-Bennet
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Posts: 1,814
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

Wolfgang Weisselberg writes:

nospam wrote:
In article , Bowser


Amazon, in choosing to sell at a loss, is not price fixing.


they're price dumping.


OK, prove it.


typical wholesale prices for books are half the cover cost.


What cover? Soft cover? Hard cover? Limited Edition cover?
Bibliothecary cover? Signed First Edition cover? Mass market
on bad paper cover?


Pretty much all of the above. Bookstores get about a 40% discount
generally, though huge chains can demand more.

amazon sold
ebooks at $9.99 regardless of the hardcopy price, which means any book
whose cover price is over $20 most likely has its ebook being sold at
below cost. it's basic math.


Native fallacy.


Obviously the marginal cost of an ebook delivery is very low. There
*are* all the editorial costs, though -- acquisition, development,
copy-edit. Book design. Covers. Promotion. How to allocate those
between hardcover, paperback, ebook, and anything else, is at least
somewhat arbitrary.

Plus however much makes it to the author. 8-10% of cover price for
mass-market paperback, a higher rate on a higher price for hardcover.
Dunno what the Baen deals are on ebooks, I haven't been close enough to
any Baen authors that they talked about their finances in detail.

I believe that at least when it started, direct sales through
Webscriptions went 50% to the web site; don't know if that's lasted.

Baen has long been selling it's own books as ebooks at prices of
$4-6, and bundles of now 7 books (each month's output) for now $18.

The hardcovers are listed at Amazon at over $15. The
softcovers around $10.

That has been going on since December 1999 --- 4 books for $10,
or one for $4.
http://www.baenebooks.com/c-11-1999-...n-bundles.aspx
So you're saying a successful publisher (i.e. someone who lives
from the books, unlike Amazon) has been able to dump prices for
12 plus years in a row *and* has been able to give away for free
a large number of books?

How are they paying the bills?


Probably not *solely* on the savings on not having New York City offices
:-).

Has it ever occured to you that an ebook is a completely
different product? Has it ever occured to you that once you
have set up a shop system and ebookized a book you're raking
in money from every sale, can offer the author a larger share
and still make more money per sale than with physical books?


Electronic vs. physical delivery is certainly a MAJOR changeover.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
  #10  
Old April 17th 12, 04:53 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Evil Apple in trouble again

In article , Bowser
wrote:

Anecdotal. Provide proof. I dare you to stand before a judge and say
something like that. you'll get laughed out of court.


this isn't a courtroom.


Which accounts for the total and complete lack of facts presented by
you. Not one reference, not one citation, nothing.


i gave a couple of citations and you haven't proven anything i've said
is wrong. works both ways.

You could have just
made it all up and nobody would every know the difference, unless they
cared enough to actually research the case.


and if they did they'd see what i've found. i *have* researched the
case, including reading the court filing, and as i said in another
post, it is not as clear cut as some people think it is.

meanwhile, most people have already tried and convicted apple and the
five publishers, likely by reading opinion pieces from people with
agendas. they aren't interested in the facts.

Luckily for all of us, our
courts require facts, not heresay or anectodal evidence.


yes, and they will decide this case based on the facts.
 




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