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Archival inksets for inkjet printers.



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 24th 04, 12:32 AM
Steve House
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Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W, mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."

The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.


"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips

....snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com



  #2  
Old January 24th 04, 04:45 AM
Jean-David Beyer
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Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

Steve House wrote:
Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W, mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's.


I believe one of Nicephore Niepce's photographs from about 1826 is still
around, and he started work around 1816, and apparently got some results
as early as 1819.

That 1826 one will probably last "forever" as it is etched into a metal
plate.


--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ Registered Machine 73926.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 10:30pm up 17 days, 9:56, 3 users, load average: 2.12, 2.25, 2.18

  #3  
Old January 24th 04, 05:22 AM
Tom Phillips
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Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.



Steve House wrote:

Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W, mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."


1839 was the first "commercial" introduction of photography, not when
photography was invented. The earliest extant permanant photograph dates
from 1827 (Niepce.) Thomas Wedgwood actually made the first known
photographic images about 1802, but didn't know how to fix the images.

The first successful color experiements date from about 1861, and the
earliest extant color prints (carbon) also date from the 1860s.



The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.

"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips

...snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com


  #4  
Old January 24th 04, 07:27 PM
Tony Spadaro
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Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

Have you actually seen any vibrant autochromes? I ask because the ones
I've seen look pretty pastel to me.
The life expectancy of the common lab print - 99% of all colour prints
being made today - is 20 years and a lot look pretty bad in only one or two
years.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
"Steve House" wrote in message
...
Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W, mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."

The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.


"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips

...snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com





  #5  
Old January 24th 04, 08:10 PM
Nicholas O. Lindan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

"Tony Spadaro" wrote


Have you actually seen any vibrant autochromes? I ask because the ones
I've seen look pretty pastel to me.


They have faded. It is the use of organic dyes I imagine. Any organic
dye will fall prey to oxygen and UV given enough time.

Metallic colorants are quite stable, silver for instance. If metal
salts were used for coloring an Autochrome's starch grains then
the colors should last a long time.

Red ochre (rust), calcium white (chalk) and bone black (burnt bone)
have demonstrated lifetimes greater than 10,000 years. Not in the
slightest affected by UV.

I remember having Prussian blue (Iron cyanide), cadmium orange (cadmium
sulfide), cerulean blue (cobalt/tin), cobalt green (cobalt/zinc)
and a whole host of others in a paint set when I was young.

The old stable pigments were still available from Russian art supply
houses last time I looked. Or you can scrape them off the floor at a
metal plating plant.

If you want stable ink-jet colors, I am afraid EPA America may not be
the place to find them.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
  #6  
Old January 24th 04, 11:50 PM
Steve House
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

Yep- sounds about right - date rounding error grin

"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message ...
Steve House wrote:
Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W,

mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's.


I believe one of Nicephore Niepce's photographs from about 1826 is

still
around, and he started work around 1816, and apparently got some

results
as early as 1819.

That 1826 one will probably last "forever" as it is etched into a

metal
plate.


--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ Registered Machine 73926.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 10:30pm up 17 days, 9:56, 3 users, load average: 2.12, 2.25,

2.18



  #7  
Old January 24th 04, 11:57 PM
Steve House
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

Look around you at nature - mostly pastel as well, with notable
exceptions. "Vibrant" does not necessarily mean the super-saturated
colours of advertising photography and video game graphics. I think of
it as meaning closer to "alive" and when applied to artwork as meaning
"retaining the spirit of the creator as put into the work when
originally created." A print by Weston or Cunningham is vibrant without
any colour at all.

"Tony Spadaro" wrote in message
om...
Have you actually seen any vibrant autochromes? I ask because the

ones
I've seen look pretty pastel to me.
The life expectancy of the common lab print - 99% of all colour

prints
being made today - is 20 years and a lot look pretty bad in only one

or two
years.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
"Steve House" wrote in

message
...
Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W,

mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look

up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."

The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take

the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.


"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips


...snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com







  #8  
Old January 25th 04, 01:14 AM
Tony Spadaro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

Then let me make it plainer. Unless they were always much paler than
reality, or the reproduction (in books that seem to get everything more
recent correct) wis poor, there are a lot of really faded autochromes out
there. Yes there are many pastel colours in nature, but there are many more
in old colour photographs.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
"Steve House" wrote in message
...
Look around you at nature - mostly pastel as well, with notable
exceptions. "Vibrant" does not necessarily mean the super-saturated
colours of advertising photography and video game graphics. I think of
it as meaning closer to "alive" and when applied to artwork as meaning
"retaining the spirit of the creator as put into the work when
originally created." A print by Weston or Cunningham is vibrant without
any colour at all.

"Tony Spadaro" wrote in message
om...
Have you actually seen any vibrant autochromes? I ask because the

ones
I've seen look pretty pastel to me.
The life expectancy of the common lab print - 99% of all colour

prints
being made today - is 20 years and a lot look pretty bad in only one

or two
years.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
"Steve House" wrote in

message
...
Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W,

mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look

up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."

The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take

the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.


"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips


...snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com








  #9  
Old January 25th 04, 07:10 AM
Tom Phillips
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.



Tony Spadaro wrote:

The life expectancy of the common lab print - 99% of all colour prints
being made today - is 20 years and a lot look pretty bad in only one or two
years.


At the professional lab I use the most common color print is now the digital
Frontier. Color dye prints are generally rated a display life of 100 years
today, not "20."

In any case, pragmatically there's no difference between a "common" print
(whatever nondescript assertion is meant by that...) made in a lab and the C,
Type R, or Ciba prints I've made myself. Color prints I have on my wall (some
made longer than 30 years ago) look like the day they were printed. I even
have boxes of machine color prints from the 60's that are 40 years old and in
good condition.




Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W, mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."

The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.


"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips

...snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com




  #10  
Old January 25th 04, 03:49 PM
Tom Monego
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Archival inksets for inkjet printers.

If you want autochromes figure out how to make them, there is a reason they
don't exist anymore. The process was killed by Ciba, and died with the Lumiere
brothers. It was still a difficult process, which the Lumieres never pattened
because they were afraid of someone copying them. I'm surprised that potoato
starch lasts as long as it does. As for metallic pigments most do not react
well with light sensitizing chemicals, this is true of silver compounds as well
as chromium ones used in gum bichromate printing. So you can paint these
pigments on a wall but not make a light sensitive emulsion out of them.

Tom

In article ,
says...

Look around you at nature - mostly pastel as well, with notable
exceptions. "Vibrant" does not necessarily mean the super-saturated
colours of advertising photography and video game graphics. I think of
it as meaning closer to "alive" and when applied to artwork as meaning
"retaining the spirit of the creator as put into the work when
originally created." A print by Weston or Cunningham is vibrant without
any colour at all.

"Tony Spadaro" wrote in message
. com...
Have you actually seen any vibrant autochromes? I ask because the

ones
I've seen look pretty pastel to me.
The life expectancy of the common lab print - 99% of all colour

prints
being made today - is 20 years and a lot look pretty bad in only one

or two
years.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
"Steve House" wrote in

message
...
Don't know of any 200 year old photographs either colour or B&W,

mainly
cause photography wasn't invented until the 1840's. But there are
colour prints that are 100 years old and still looking good. Look

up
"Carbro Process" and "Autochrome."

The Autochrome process produced prints before 1910 that are still
vibrant today.

http://www.institut-lumiere.org/engl...utochrome.html
http://toosvanholstein.nl/greatwar/kleur/kleur.html

Of course, for truly archival colour photography today one can take

the
camera original and from it create tri-colour separation B&W
gelatin-silver negatives on glass plates processed and stored
archivally. There are a number of top-ticket professional labs and
museums that do exactly that.


"Rafe B." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:08:36 -0700, Tom Phillips


...snip...

May not outlast silver and gelatin, but with care can
eaisily outlast most conventional color photogrraphic
prints. So where are the 200 year old color photograhic
prints and where can I see them?



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com







 




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