Fuji's XF 100-400mm zoom beats Nikon's 300mm f/4.0 VR prime.

In article , PeterN
wrote:


I haven't been following this thread, but Tim Grey just wrote on the
subject of hummingbirds and VR:

http://asktimgrey.com/

It's the August 4 "Stabilizing with Fast Shutter" issue in case a
later date opens at that link.

use the actual link rather than inconvenience the user.
http://asktimgrey.com/2016/08/04/stabilization-with-fast-shutter/

What is the virtue of the longer URL?

it's a direct link to the article.

They both get to the same place.

no they don't.


And that comment has what to do with VR and high shutter speeds.

read the linked article, which doesn't actually say much.

On 8/4/2016 7:33 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 18:06:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.


vr and focusing are two independent systems, however, vr actually
*helps* focus tracking because the target is stabilized and not moving
all over the place.

Should be true since the lense, at least Nikons have their own processor:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog...vr_e/index.htm

The autofocus is processed in the camera:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog.../caf/index.htm

Nevertheless there is a short delay after pushing the shutter release
fully down while the VR set centres and commences it's new movement.

so what?

that has nothing to do with focus speed.

it's only an initial delay and once stabilized, there aren't any
further delays.

the autofocus system may also have to rack the lens, so there may be a
delay there too.

I took Peter to mean a delay between pushing the button and and the
camera taking a photograph. I presume he has shutter release set to
focus priority.


I use focus priority, However, There seems to be some thought that
release priority may under certain circumstances result in better
images. I am still in the process of learning.

--
PeterN

On 2016-08-05 14:52:31 +0000, PeterN said:

On 8/4/2016 11:43 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2016-08-04 14:53:08 +0000, PeterN said:
On 8/3/2016 4:56 PM, RichA wrote:
I saw it in a magazine, a convincing win for the Fuji despite the
fact it was a zoom against a prime lens. Nikon's earlier 300mm
lenses can be had for half the price, but are not recommended as they
have no VR. Both Fuji and Nikon run about $2000.00.

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.

Has that actually been documented by anybody, other than with your
personal experience?
...or is that some sort of unverified speculation?

I first heard that suggestion at a wildlife shooting lecture. The
theory is that when shooting at speeds above 1/2000 sec, you may not
need VR. VR does slightly slow down the frame rate. Since this made
sense to me I did not research the issue, other than to ask a Nikon
professional, and he confirmed the concept.
So I guess you can call that concept based on anecdotal evidence, until
I see documentation.

VR/OS was on for this shot.
https://db.tt/FChe5Y5t

Several

Several what?


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2016-08-05 15:15:44 +0000, nospam said:

In article , PeterN
wrote:

I saw it in a magazine, a convincing win for the Fuji despite the
fact it was a zoom against a prime lens. Nikon's earlier 300mm
lenses can be had for half the price, but are not recommended as they
have no VR. Both Fuji and Nikon run about $2000.00.


If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.

Has that actually been documented by anybody, other than with your
personal experience?
...or is that some sort of unverified speculation?

I first heard that suggestion at a wildlife shooting lecture. The theory
is that when shooting at speeds above 1/2000 sec, you may not need VR.

that part is true.

VR does slightly slow down the frame rate.

that part is not.

Since this made sense to me I
did not research the issue, other than to ask a Nikon professional, and
he confirmed the concept.

he's wrong.

the frame rate is independent of vr.

The frame rate is going to be dependant on a whole bunch of factors
starting with AF mode, SF or CF. Then release priority has to be
considered when shooting burst + CF, along with the appropriate AF
tracking mode.

If "Release" is selected then you could easily end up with a
series/burst of shots all OoF.
If you Select "Release + Focus" the priority remains on shutter relase
with a slight edge to focus, so with that you might get a few shots in
focus.
If you select "Focus" and you have the appropriate AF tracking enabled,
you are going to to have most of your captured images in focus.
However, the frame rate is going to suffer. When it comes to VR/OS
inhibiting AF lock, or accurate AF the charateristics and design
qualities of any particular lens will come into play.
VR/OS of lenses designed 10 years ago, and theories built around those
designs are not entirely applicable to many more recent implementations
of VR/OS.

The one example I can present is the frustratingly slow and hunting AF
in the original Nikkor 80-400mm long with its now primitive VR compared
to VR/OS lenses of just a few years later.

So I guess you can call that concept based on anecdotal evidence, until
I see documentation.

read the documentation on how vr works.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article 2016080509052325226-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

I saw it in a magazine, a convincing win for the Fuji despite the
fact it was a zoom against a prime lens. Nikon's earlier 300mm
lenses can be had for half the price, but are not recommended as they
have no VR. Both Fuji and Nikon run about $2000.00.


If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.

Has that actually been documented by anybody, other than with your
personal experience?
...or is that some sort of unverified speculation?

I first heard that suggestion at a wildlife shooting lecture. The theory
is that when shooting at speeds above 1/2000 sec, you may not need VR.

that part is true.

VR does slightly slow down the frame rate.

that part is not.

Since this made sense to me I
did not research the issue, other than to ask a Nikon professional, and
he confirmed the concept.

he's wrong.

the frame rate is independent of vr.

The frame rate is going to be dependant on a whole bunch of factors
starting with AF mode, SF or CF. Then release priority has to be
considered when shooting burst + CF, along with the appropriate AF
tracking mode.

release versus focus priority obviously will affect frame rate. vr will
not.

On 2016-08-05 15:18:11 +0000, PeterN said:

On 8/4/2016 7:33 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 18:06:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.


vr and focusing are two independent systems, however, vr actually
*helps* focus tracking because the target is stabilized and not moving
all over the place.

Should be true since the lense, at least Nikons have their own processor:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog...vr_e/index.htm

The autofocus is processed in the camera:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog.../caf/index.htm

Nevertheless there is a short delay after pushing the shutter release
fully down while the VR set centres and commences it's new movement.

so what?

that has nothing to do with focus speed.

it's only an initial delay and once stabilized, there aren't any
further delays.

the autofocus system may also have to rack the lens, so there may be a
delay there too.

I took Peter to mean a delay between pushing the button and and the
camera taking a photograph. I presume he has shutter release set to
focus priority.


I use focus priority, However, There seems to be some thought that
release priority may under certain circumstances result in better
images. I am still in the process of learning.

There is a time and place to use each of the release priority options,
and those are going to be based on whether or not you are shooting
AF-S, or AF-C, and the tracking method you have selected.
The speed at which you attain an AF lock primarily depends on the
camera handling technique you have developed for particular shooting
scenarios rather than issues related to VR/OS.

With questionable handling technique you might find that your AF lock
and OoF capture rate is far higher than you would like it to be.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2016-08-05 16:46:20 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2016-08-05 15:18:11 +0000, PeterN said:

On 8/4/2016 7:33 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 18:06:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.


vr and focusing are two independent systems, however, vr actually
*helps* focus tracking because the target is stabilized and not moving
all over the place.

Should be true since the lense, at least Nikons have their own processor:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog...vr_e/index.htm

The autofocus is processed in the camera:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog.../caf/index.htm

Nevertheless there is a short delay after pushing the shutter release
fully down while the VR set centres and commences it's new movement.

so what?

that has nothing to do with focus speed.

it's only an initial delay and once stabilized, there aren't any
further delays.

the autofocus system may also have to rack the lens, so there may be a
delay there too.

I took Peter to mean a delay between pushing the button and and the
camera taking a photograph. I presume he has shutter release set to
focus priority.


I use focus priority, However, There seems to be some thought that
release priority may under certain circumstances result in better
images. I am still in the process of learning.

There is a time and place to use each of the release priority options,
and those are going to be based on whether or not you are shooting
AF-S, or AF-C, and the tracking method you have selected.
The speed at which you attain an AF lock primarily depends on the
camera handling technique you have developed for particular shooting
scenarios rather than issues related to VR/OS.

With questionable handling technique you might find that your AF lock
and OoF capture rate is far higher than you would like it to be.

I guess I should have said: "You might find that your AF failure to
lock and OoF capture rate is far higher than you would like it to be."

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:18:11 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 8/4/2016 7:33 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 18:06:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.


vr and focusing are two independent systems, however, vr actually
*helps* focus tracking because the target is stabilized and not moving
all over the place.

Should be true since the lense, at least Nikons have their own processor:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog...vr_e/index.htm

The autofocus is processed in the camera:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog.../caf/index.htm

Nevertheless there is a short delay after pushing the shutter release
fully down while the VR set centres and commences it's new movement.

so what?

that has nothing to do with focus speed.

it's only an initial delay and once stabilized, there aren't any
further delays.

the autofocus system may also have to rack the lens, so there may be a
delay there too.

I took Peter to mean a delay between pushing the button and and the
camera taking a photograph. I presume he has shutter release set to
focus priority.


I use focus priority, However, There seems to be some thought that
release priority may under certain circumstances result in better
images. I am still in the process of learning.

For most purposes I'm a convert to 'back button' focussing, although I
must admit I have never tried it on birds.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 8/5/2016 12:46 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2016-08-05 15:18:11 +0000, PeterN said:

On 8/4/2016 7:33 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 18:06:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things
down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.


vr and focusing are two independent systems, however, vr actually
*helps* focus tracking because the target is stabilized and not
moving
all over the place.

Should be true since the lense, at least Nikons have their own
processor:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog...vr_e/index.htm

The autofocus is processed in the camera:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog.../caf/index.htm

Nevertheless there is a short delay after pushing the shutter release
fully down while the VR set centres and commences it's new movement.

so what?

that has nothing to do with focus speed.

it's only an initial delay and once stabilized, there aren't any
further delays.

the autofocus system may also have to rack the lens, so there may be a
delay there too.

I took Peter to mean a delay between pushing the button and and the
camera taking a photograph. I presume he has shutter release set to
focus priority.


I use focus priority, However, There seems to be some thought that
release priority may under certain circumstances result in better
images. I am still in the process of learning.

There is a time and place to use each of the release priority options,
and those are going to be based on whether or not you are shooting AF-S,
or AF-C, and the tracking method you have selected.
The speed at which you attain an AF lock primarily depends on the camera
handling technique you have developed for particular shooting scenarios
rather than issues related to VR/OS.

With questionable handling technique you might find that your AF lock
and OoF capture rate is far higher than you would like it to be.


For purposes of this discussion i am only talking about AF-C.
Logic would say that when i use focus , than release the actual frame
rate would be a tad slower, but there would be fewer images OOF. I am
certainly wiling to be convinced otherwise.
However, that has nothing to do with my original statement VR.
Sticking to the topic, I see little use for VR when doing high shutter
rate shooting. Nothing said here convinces me otherwise.


--
PeterN

On 2016-08-05 23:24:08 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 11:18:11 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 8/4/2016 7:33 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 18:06:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If you're shooing birds at high speeds, VR only slows things down. I
find I get better focus tracking without VR.


vr and focusing are two independent systems, however, vr actually
*helps* focus tracking because the target is stabilized and not moving
all over the place.

Should be true since the lense, at least Nikons have their own processor:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog...vr_e/index.htm

The autofocus is processed in the camera:

http://www.nikon.com/about/technolog.../caf/index.htm

Nevertheless there is a short delay after pushing the shutter release
fully down while the VR set centres and commences it's new movement.

so what?

that has nothing to do with focus speed.

it's only an initial delay and once stabilized, there aren't any
further delays.

the autofocus system may also have to rack the lens, so there may be a
delay there too.

I took Peter to mean a delay between pushing the button and and the
camera taking a photograph. I presume he has shutter release set to
focus priority.


I use focus priority, However, There seems to be some thought that
release priority may under certain circumstances result in better
images. I am still in the process of learning.

For most purposes I'm a convert to 'back button' focussing, although I
must admit I have never tried it on birds.

"back button" is useful for many subjects, but doesn't do you much good
when shooting a burst while using AF tracking and AF-C for moving
subjects such as those pesky birds in flight.

--
Regards,

Savageduck