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LCD monitor calibration
Hi.
I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Roger (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) |
#2
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LCD monitor calibration
"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" wrote in
message ... Hi. I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Hi Roger, The Samsung 204B is a gorgeous monitor, and after getting it set up, and getting used to it a bit, I think you'll find it much more agreeable. You may be reacting to the brightness of the display, rather than to the contrast as such. Try toning down the brightness of the display, to 100 candela or so, and see if it's more like you were used to with the CRT. Also make sure the color temp is set to 65K or less. If your video card does not support digital output, you might consider getting one that does - this is not a big investment as digital video cards start in the under 50 range. Gamma affects overall brightness, and a higher gamma value trades away contrast in the shadows for contrast in the highlights, but does not change the overall contrast as such. Depending on your editing software, it may make no difference at all in the appearance of the image. Programs like Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro will compensate for your display, and give the same image appearance for all gamma values. Anyway, try cranking down the brightness. -- Mike Russell www.curvemeister.com/forum/ |
#3
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LCD monitor calibration
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
Hi. I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Roger (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) For someone as serious about photography as you, I'm a little surprised you were a little more picky about your monitor. I assumed you were already using a colorometer, but if not, that really should be your first move. A Spyder 2 will make the best of what you've got in a jiffy, and you'll be able to calibrate any second monitor you get with it also. I have used two monitors in the past that were very dissimilar, yet it handled them both extremely well. I've got a perfectly (or close enough) calibrated Viewsonic 20.1" monitor (VP 201S) but I don't think they sell that one any more. With most LCDs, you have to be careful about brightness--even after calibration--because not all LCDs adjust accurate for (or with full control ever) brightness/contrast. I've been tempted by the Lacie 321 also. It seems to have no equal in it's price range. But regarding the Apple, I've read nothing but compmlaints (at least from those chiefly concerned with accuracy, rather than simply being wowed by it's size). Ya, it's huge and pretty, but wildly uneven for critical color-matching. I've heard similar complaints about the 30" Dell. It's pretty, but inaccurate. The Lacie seems pretty well unbeatable until you get into many $Ks more than the Lacie's already steep price. If I buy another large LCD, it will likely be either the Lacie, or this much cheaper Viewsonic (if I can still find one). Before you do anything else, I'd get the Spyder 2 and see where that takes you. At this point, I can differentiate every level of this: http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/45959621 and actually better, using other more finely graduated charts. If you're not able to see both the first and last squares separately form the adjacent ones, you'll have to get to work. Even then, you may be too bright... I've been getting literally perfect matching between screen and print ever since moving to the Spyder 2, and using proper profiles for printer, paper, and screen. MarkČ -- Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at: www.pbase.com/markuson |
#4
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LCD monitor calibration
MarkČ wrote:
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote: Hi. I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Roger (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) For someone as serious about photography as you, I'm a little surprised you were a little more picky about your monitor. I assumed you were already using a colorometer, but if not, that really should be your first move. A Spyder 2 will make the best of what you've got in a jiffy, and you'll be able to calibrate any second monitor you get with it also. I have used two monitors in the past that were very dissimilar, yet it handled them both extremely well. I've got a perfectly (or close enough) calibrated Viewsonic 20.1" monitor (VP 201S) but I don't think they sell that one any more. With most LCDs, you have to be careful about brightness--even after calibration--because not all LCDs adjust accurate for (or with full control ever) brightness/contrast. I've been tempted by the Lacie 321 also. It seems to have no equal in it's price range. But regarding the Apple, I've read nothing but compmlaints (at least from those chiefly concerned with accuracy, rather than simply being wowed by it's size). Ya, it's huge and pretty, but wildly uneven for critical color-matching. I've heard similar complaints about the 30" Dell. It's pretty, but inaccurate. The Lacie seems pretty well unbeatable until you get into many $Ks more than the Lacie's already steep price. If I buy another large LCD, it will likely be either the Lacie, or this much cheaper Viewsonic (if I can still find one). Before you do anything else, I'd get the Spyder 2 and see where that takes you. At this point, I can differentiate every level of this: http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/45959621 and actually better, using other more finely graduated charts. If you're not able to see both the first and last squares separately form the adjacent ones, you'll have to get to work. Even then, you may be too bright... I've been getting literally perfect matching between screen and print ever since moving to the Spyder 2, and using proper profiles for printer, paper, and screen. MarkČ By the way... I didn't mean to imply that your monitor was bad... It may be fine- -I'm not familiar with that one and have no specific opinion. It just sounded like it wasn't given much thought. -- Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at: www.pbase.com/markuson |
#5
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LCD monitor calibration
In article , change username to rnclark
wrote: Hi. I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Roger (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) Welcome back, looking forward to see a few of those pix. Sorry I can't help on the main question, the built-in monitor on my iMac, with Spyder calibration, is right on, so I've never had those problems. -- You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard |
#6
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LCD monitor calibration
"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" wrote in message ... : Hi. : : I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to : an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware : computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices : for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor : (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 : but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of : images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images : still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). : I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or : apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. : So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of : 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor : system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need : one calibrated)? : Any other advice/help is appreciated. : : Roger : (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had : the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) Hi Roger... My wife has a Samsung 204B and she no longer has any eye strain problems. Whenever I use her PC to print to her dye-sub printer (an Olympus sRGB printer), I always see more detain on her screen than the printer produces. I think Mike is right in this... Take the time to get used to it. My personal preference for a video card is the 2D Radeon work station card hefty hit at $500+ but after paying out $5k for a camera, what's another few hundred matter? I myself use an old Viewsonic G90f+ (which is as old as the hills) for working detailed images. I have a spare, new one in a box under my desk for when it finally dies. I also have an Apple cinema which to be quite frank is a little disappointing. If I had to choose again, I would not have bought it. Instead, I'd have opted for a screen with a very high (1000/1+ perhaps) contrast ratio, regardless of who made it. I'd also take along a test image to see if it really could display the detail I get from the CRT screens. Now, all the cinema screen does is hold PS tools and menus so I have a clear screen on the CRT. A waste I know. I would have liked it the other way around but everything to do with image editing on a PC is a compromise of some sort. -- From Douglas... Wedding and Portrait specialist: http://www.photosbydouglas.com Canvas prints and Digital enlargements: http://www.canvasphotos.com.au Wedding Photography anywhere on the east coast of Australia. |
#7
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LCD monitor calibration
"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" wrote:
Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. I've run a Philips Brilliance 202P4 CRT and an HP2335 LCD in spanned mode. I calibrated them both with a Spyder2. I don't think I'd want to calibrate only one. Because Windows XP doesn't support 2 different monitor profiles directly, on boot-up I'd see the CRT without the calibration loaded into the Video card's LUT for that monitor. I had to use the Spyder software to load the profile into the LUT for the CRT. Once loaded, both displays matched great but I'd hate to have to use them in the unmatched state. The colour difference would be pretty disconcerting. |
#8
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LCD monitor calibration
MarkČ wrote:
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote: Hi. I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Roger (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) For someone as serious about photography as you, I'm a little surprised you were a little more picky about your monitor. I assumed you were already using a colorometer, but if not, that really should be your first move. A Spyder 2 will make the best of what you've got in a jiffy, and you'll be able to calibrate any second monitor you get with it also. Gee, Mark, I did say I was using a spyder 2. I also said I was planning on getting a monitor more useful for photography. With the holidays and planning for the Africa trip, I simply ran out of time upgrading hardware so I would have the disk space and processing power for the new images. I've returned with about 60 gbytes of images from a stunning trip: 85 individual lions (I lost count), 13 cheetahs, 1 leopard, dozens of birds and other animals. Many mosaics to assemble, even mosaics of cheetahs and other animals (3 to 4 frames to cover an animal). Also, 3 frames to cover a bird with depth of field from tail to beak, which will make for some interesting processing. I'm still trying to choose the best of about 8,000 images. I previously ran a spyder 2 calibrated sony CRT, but perhaps its the 10-hour jet lag (been home less than 24 hours) but I can't remember my settings for the sony + spyder setup. Following Mike Russel's advice, I reduced the brightness and the calibration now looks better. In each case, I could see all steps in your brightness scale, as I could my own scales, but images on my web site with any browser looked way too contrasty. After reducing the brightness and recalibrating, things look better (I may tweak some more). I used gamma 1.8 native in the spyder 2 setup. I tried a 6500 K color temperature but could not get a calibration to reach that color temperature; but "native" worked ok (not stellar). For example: this image: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...e_taryall.html still has blocked up reds on my LCD (see the enlarged flower below the main image); reds that I could easily discern on my sony crt, and which print fine on cibachrome and fuji crystal archive papers. This concerns me. Maybe contrast is not the issue; perhaps its color gamut of the monitor? Are LCDs that much different than CRTs in color gamut (lower)? But it does make me wonder, with all the uncalibrated monitors out there, how people perceive images on web sites. The factory settings for my monitor were awful. Roger I have used two monitors in the past that were very dissimilar, yet it handled them both extremely well. I've got a perfectly (or close enough) calibrated Viewsonic 20.1" monitor (VP 201S) but I don't think they sell that one any more. With most LCDs, you have to be careful about brightness--even after calibration--because not all LCDs adjust accurate for (or with full control ever) brightness/contrast. I've been tempted by the Lacie 321 also. It seems to have no equal in it's price range. But regarding the Apple, I've read nothing but compmlaints (at least from those chiefly concerned with accuracy, rather than simply being wowed by it's size). Ya, it's huge and pretty, but wildly uneven for critical color-matching. I've heard similar complaints about the 30" Dell. It's pretty, but inaccurate. The Lacie seems pretty well unbeatable until you get into many $Ks more than the Lacie's already steep price. If I buy another large LCD, it will likely be either the Lacie, or this much cheaper Viewsonic (if I can still find one). Before you do anything else, I'd get the Spyder 2 and see where that takes you. At this point, I can differentiate every level of this: http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/45959621 and actually better, using other more finely graduated charts. If you're not able to see both the first and last squares separately form the adjacent ones, you'll have to get to work. Even then, you may be too bright... I've been getting literally perfect matching between screen and print ever since moving to the Spyder 2, and using proper profiles for printer, paper, and screen. MarkČ |
#9
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LCD monitor calibration
Often, as posted above, the brightness of LCD panels compared to CRT and
reflective prints is the main problem calibrating for WYSIWYG printing. Color matching per se is not as difficult. Also the ambient lighting in which you view your monitor and your print can be significant factors influencing your judgment. The simplest solution is to calibrate your monitor in your preferred way and print a test print (use your own suitable image or one of the many available for download). Then turn down the contrast and brightness of your monitor until there is reasonable match to the print. This may require a few trials. |
#10
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LCD monitor calibration
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
MarkČ wrote: Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote: Hi. I bought a new computer and I am making the jump from a Sony CRT to an LCD display for photo editing. I bought an alienware computer (duo core 2) and have 1.75 terabytes of disk. But the choices for LCD were low so I just opted for the default monitor (samsung 204B 19 inch). I've calibrated it with spyder 2 but it is still very contrasty and I do not like the look of images. I then recalibrated with a gamma of 1.8 but images still seem too contrasty (this is a window system). I plan on buying a second monitor. such as a Lacie 321 or apple cinema for photos, but until then I will use the samsung. So, for those who calibrate LCD monitors, do you use a gamma of 1.8, 2.2 or something else? Anyone run a dual monitor system with two different brands of monitors (I really will only need one calibrated)? Any other advice/help is appreciated. Roger (Just returned from Africa and have lots of images to process--I had the new computer all ready except monitor calibration.) For someone as serious about photography as you, I'm a little surprised you were a little more picky about your monitor. I assumed you were already using a colorometer, but if not, that really should be your first move. A Spyder 2 will make the best of what you've got in a jiffy, and you'll be able to calibrate any second monitor you get with it also. Gee, Mark, I did say I was using a spyder 2. I also said I was planning on getting a monitor more useful for photography. ?!?! I'm sick with the flu this week... Fever must have gone to my eyes!! What the heck? cool stuff about Africa and images snipped I previously ran a spyder 2 calibrated sony CRT, but perhaps its the 10-hour jet lag (been home less than 24 hours) but I can't remember my settings for the sony + spyder setup. Following Mike Russel's advice, I reduced the brightness and the calibration now looks better. In each case, I could see all steps in your brightness scale, as I could my own scales, but images on my web site with any browser looked way too contrasty. After reducing the brightness and recalibrating, things look better (I may tweak some more). I used gamma 1.8 native in the spyder 2 setup. LCDs are notoriously WAY too bright at default settings. I assume they do that so they'll stand out to untrained eyes in the stores(?). I tried a 6500 K color temperature but could not get a calibration to reach that color temperature; but "native" worked ok (not stellar). For example: this image: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...e_taryall.html still has blocked up reds on my LCD (see the enlarged flower below the main image); reds that I could easily discern on my sony crt, and which print fine on cibachrome and fuji crystal archive papers. This concerns me. When I run the Spyder on my LCD, I actually end up cranking the blues WAY up via the monitor controls, for example, followed by the monitor profile compensating on start-up. Kinda strange, but it works. I assume that the blues were simply far too weak at default settings, so the Spyder needed me to over-compensate to get within an output range it could work with. -Not sure exactly how that works, but it does work. But ya...in general, color gamut is why Lacie can charge so much for their 321... BTW--I'm getting a non-blocky rendition from that flower close-up... Maybe contrast is not the issue; perhaps its color gamut of the monitor? That's likely at least part of it. Does that monitor allow you to make custom adjustments for each color in its set-up menu (on-screen)? If not, you'll be unable to do what I described above (and that was only at the prompting of cues from the Spyder regimen). Are LCDs that much different than CRTs in color gamut (lower)? But it does make me wonder, with all the uncalibrated monitors out there, how people perceive images on web sites. The factory settings for my monitor were awful. That is so sadly and SEVERELY true--about the public viewing photos under horrible settings. I remember my horror to see how crappy some of my "carefully calibrated" images appeared on-line using friends/co-worker's/family's computers. That's why critique on-line is always iffy--since who the heck knows what sort of monitor they're looking at. It's not really their fault (ignorance), but it's a real problem to those of us who care. With the amazing popularity of digital cameras these days, I wish there'd be more emphasis on pushing the general public to think about accuracy, but judging by the ridiculous focus on 10MP sensors about the size of a square mm ...I'm not holding out much hope. -Mark -- Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by MarkČ at: www.pbase.com/markuson |
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