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Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?



 
 
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  #51  
Old November 26th 05, 09:09 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
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Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:45:48 -0500, "Peter A. Stavrakoglou"
wrote:

"Rich" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 23:14:21 +0100, (Philip
Homburg) wrote:

In article , Rich dfs
wrote:
Euro cars score third of three in reliability tests. But it's nice to
know you can sit in luxury while you wait for the tow truck.

Are you saying that just the cars that don't work get exported from Europe
to the US?


No, I'm saying European cars on average (the world over) score lower
than Japanese, American and perhaps even Korean cars in terms of
number of breakdowns and defects.
-Rich


Over the life span of a vehicle, I believe that the American cars now are
the equal of the Japanese cars in TCO. The Korean cars are getting there
too - I own a Kia Sedona I bought three years ago and my son drives the
Hyundai Elantra we bought four years ago. Both have been extremely
reliable. My 1 1/2 year-old Chrysler 300C has been extremely reliable also,
this car is the fruit of Chrysler's merger with Daimler. It's solid, quiet,
fast, and reliable. If only it didn't cost so much.


The 300 is an interesting car. However, from what I've heard, the
Hemi, even with it's mechanism to cut down on the number of cylinders
(works much better than the horrific GM 8-6-4 option of the 1980s)
it averages pretty bad fuel economy. Even a Vette is supposed to be
superior.


Even though I don't own one presently, I am a bigger fan of European cars
than any other make. Having spent three weeks in Greece this summer and
doing the same eight years ago, I got to see and drive in quite a few cars
that I'll never have a chance to do here. The island I stayed on with
family has a heavy presence of French cars. They don't sell them here in
the US anymore, the quality years ago when they left the market here was
terrible. They certainly have turned that around from what I've seen in
Greece. The cars take quite a beating there and they just keep going. The
Citroens, Renaults, Peugeots, and even the Fiats and Alfas. The SEATs from
Spain and Skoda from the Czech Republic (owned by VW AG) are really nice
too. I wish they sold them here, I would certainly consider buying any of
them. They are quite stylish too.


European cars have styling, luxury (depending on the model) and speed
which in-part is due to the fact they don't have to meet U.S. crash
worthiness overseas or pollution control standards.
-Rich
  #52  
Old November 26th 05, 09:12 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:21:22 GMT, John A. Stovall
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:55:28 GMT, "ian lincoln"
wrote:


"nick c" wrote in message
m...

I believe you must have BOTH aspherical and fluorite to qualify for L.
There are low dispersion lenses that aren't L. I believe water or at least
dust protection is required to qualify also.


No to all of the above.

I suggest you get and read:

_"EF Lens Work" III: The Eyes of EOS_ by Canon

For example the 400mm f/5.6L has no fluorite elements.

The 400mm f/4.0 DO IS USM has a huge chunk of fluorite and a
multilayer Diffractive Optical element (DO) but doesn't rate an "L".

Here is what Canon has to say about "L" lenses.

pp34 of the above book:

"L Lenses Where Dreams Are Crystal Clear.

The bright red line engraved on the lens barrel . An L for "luxury."
The Canon EF lens L series possesses a level of quality sufficiently
high to be called professional, designed to include groundbreaking
image performance, outstanding operability, and resistance to weather
and aging. "L." This name is reserved only for those few lenses that
can meet stringent standards of performance, using fluorite (an
artificial crystal), a ground and polished aspherical surface, UD,
super UD lenses or other special optical materials. Optical design
with out compromise together with optical theory and precision
engineering technologies that are steeped in tradition as they are
cutting edge. And the result of our relentless pursuit of these ideals
is the L series of Canon EF lenses."

L is for Luxury.


Seems that the three standard features a
-Long life build quality
-Weather sealing
-No plastic

The rest are optional.
-Rich
  #53  
Old November 26th 05, 09:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:17:18 -0600, Howard Larson
wrote:

DD wrote in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems :

In article ,
says...

[snip]
The D70 compared with 300 D?? The D70 is a much better camera.


I know that, you know that, but the vast majority of newbies don't.

[snip]

Do you really know that? If so, you are simply contributing to the
noise when you could be educating those of us in the vast unwashed.


Physically, it seems to be a better camera. Sensorwise, probably
about the same. However, the conundrum is that the Rebel XT
is still a "lesser" camera physically and egonomically than the D70
but has a better sensor. But then for the average buyer, the kit
lens (18-70) for the D70 is a far better lens than either iteration of
the Canon 18-55mm. Tough choices, huh?
-Rich
  #54  
Old November 26th 05, 10:57 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
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Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?



--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
"Rich" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:45:48 -0500, "Peter A. Stavrakoglou"
wrote:


this car is the fruit of Chrysler's merger with Daimler. It's solid,
quiet,
fast, and reliable. If only it didn't cost so much.


The 300 is an interesting car. However, from what I've heard, the
Hemi, even with it's mechanism to cut down on the number of cylinders
(works much better than the horrific GM 8-6-4 option of the 1980s)
it averages pretty bad fuel economy. Even a Vette is supposed to be
superior.


A Corvette has about the same EPA rating as the 300C, but has an annoying
"skip shift" feature that skips from 1st to 4th under low load situations,
thus improving the fuel mileage on the EPA tests, but not in real world.
And its 6 speed transmission has two overdrive ratios, as opposed to the
300C's 5 speed and one overdrive.


Even though I don't own one presently, I am a bigger fan of European cars
than any other make. Having spent three weeks in Greece this summer and
doing the same eight years ago, I got to see and drive in quite a few cars
that I'll never have a chance to do here. The island I stayed on with
family has a heavy presence of French cars. They don't sell them here in
the US anymore, the quality years ago when they left the market here was
terrible. They certainly have turned that around from what I've seen in
Greece. The cars take quite a beating there and they just keep going.
The
Citroens, Renaults, Peugeots, and even the Fiats and Alfas. The SEATs
from
Spain and Skoda from the Czech Republic (owned by VW AG) are really nice
too. I wish they sold them here, I would certainly consider buying any of
them. They are quite stylish too.


European cars have styling, luxury (depending on the model) and speed
which in-part is due to the fact they don't have to meet U.S. crash
worthiness overseas or pollution control standards.
-Rich


German pollution standards are more stringent than ours in some categories,
and the differing crash standards don't contribute that much to the weight
or styling. And luxury has absolutely nothing to do with it.

http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com


  #55  
Old November 27th 05, 12:42 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

"Rich" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:45:48 -0500, "Peter A. Stavrakoglou"
wrote:

"Rich" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 23:14:21 +0100, (Philip
Homburg) wrote:

In article , Rich dfs
wrote:
Euro cars score third of three in reliability tests. But it's nice to
know you can sit in luxury while you wait for the tow truck.

Are you saying that just the cars that don't work get exported from
Europe
to the US?

No, I'm saying European cars on average (the world over) score lower
than Japanese, American and perhaps even Korean cars in terms of
number of breakdowns and defects.
-Rich


Over the life span of a vehicle, I believe that the American cars now are
the equal of the Japanese cars in TCO. The Korean cars are getting there
too - I own a Kia Sedona I bought three years ago and my son drives the
Hyundai Elantra we bought four years ago. Both have been extremely
reliable. My 1 1/2 year-old Chrysler 300C has been extremely reliable
also,
this car is the fruit of Chrysler's merger with Daimler. It's solid,
quiet,
fast, and reliable. If only it didn't cost so much.


The 300 is an interesting car. However, from what I've heard, the
Hemi, even with it's mechanism to cut down on the number of cylinders
(works much better than the horrific GM 8-6-4 option of the 1980s)
it averages pretty bad fuel economy. Even a Vette is supposed to be
superior.


I remeber that 8-6-4, what a disaster. My 300C gets just the MPG that it is
rated for, 17 city and 25 highway. I don't consider that too bad for a two
ton car with the oomph that this baby has. The ratings for the Vette are
very close, 17 city and 27 highway for the 365. The Vette is almost 900
pounds lighter.


Even though I don't own one presently, I am a bigger fan of European cars
than any other make. Having spent three weeks in Greece this summer and
doing the same eight years ago, I got to see and drive in quite a few cars
that I'll never have a chance to do here. The island I stayed on with
family has a heavy presence of French cars. They don't sell them here in
the US anymore, the quality years ago when they left the market here was
terrible. They certainly have turned that around from what I've seen in
Greece. The cars take quite a beating there and they just keep going.
The
Citroens, Renaults, Peugeots, and even the Fiats and Alfas. The SEATs
from
Spain and Skoda from the Czech Republic (owned by VW AG) are really nice
too. I wish they sold them here, I would certainly consider buying any of
them. They are quite stylish too.


European cars have styling, luxury (depending on the model) and speed
which in-part is due to the fact they don't have to meet U.S. crash
worthiness overseas or pollution control standards.
-Rich



  #56  
Old November 27th 05, 02:59 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?


"nick c" wrote in message

Skip, I recall reading a magazine article where the reporter was
interviewing someone in the Canon hierarchy. The 17-85 "S" lens was
mentioned along with other lenses and the Canon person said if it were not
for the 17-85 lens being a "S" lens, the lens is so good it would be have
been released as an "L" lens.

I have the 17-85 lens and it's almost always on the 20D camera. As to it
being good enough to be labeled an "L" lens ... shrug. But it is a darn
good lens.



Nick,

The article was in either Shutterbug or Pop Photography (I still have the
issue somewhere). It was about the 10-22 EF-S lens. They said that if it
wasn't for the "S" designation and the lack of weather-proofness, it could
compete with nearly any of the "L" lenses.


  #57  
Old November 27th 05, 04:00 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:57:03 -0800, "Skip M"
wrote:


A Corvette has about the same EPA rating as the 300C, but has an annoying
"skip shift" feature that skips from 1st to 4th under low load situations,
thus improving the fuel mileage on the EPA tests, but not in real world.
And its 6 speed transmission has two overdrive ratios, as opposed to the
300C's 5 speed and one overdrive.


No one uses the 6th gear in a Vette except maybe on long highway runs
where you get good fuel economy anyway. The Hemi according to some
users nets about 14mpg or less, depending on the vehicle.
I figure my Mach-1 gets worse mileage than the current Corvette.
-Rich
  #58  
Old November 27th 05, 04:02 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

In article writes:
$Well Ian, I'm not as sure about what it takes to be labeled a L lens as
$I used to be.

Canon has moved the goalposts a few times. It used to be that any
lens with one or more of UD, S-UD, fluorite, or a ground aspherical
element (other aspherical element types don't qualify) was an L lens,
and any lens lacking any of these was not. Optical superiority wasn't
a requirement; the 50/1.0L was widely regarded as the worst, optically,
of Canon's 50mm EF lenses, yet it was the only L of the bunch.

You still can't be an L lens unless you have at least one of those,
but there are now some lenses which ought to qualify under the old
rules but don't, including the MP-E 65mm, 400mm DO, and EF-S
10-22. I can't explain the first one; it really deserves to be an
L as much as the 24mm TS-E does. The second one isn't L because
it's DO, and apparently a lens can't be both - but that decision
was reached late in this lens' gestation, as shown by the fact that
many of Canon's initial announcements about this lens stated it was
both DO and L, and Canon's Canadian Web site still has this error
on it years after the issue was settled. The third one isn't L
because it can't be mounted on the official pro bodies; clearly, EF-S
lenses need not apply for L status even if they deserve it (and this
lens' reputation is that it's up in the ballpark of the 16-35 and
17-40, both well-regarded L lenses).
--
Stephen M. Dunn
----------------
http://www.stevedunn.ca/ ----------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
Say hi to my cat -- http://www.stevedunn.ca/photos/toby/
  #59  
Old November 27th 05, 04:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:37:45 GMT, John A. Stovall
wrote:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:12:32 -0500, Rich wrote:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:21:22 GMT, John A. Stovall
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:55:28 GMT, "ian lincoln"
wrote:


"nick c" wrote in message
news:U_idnVtqwawQKRvenZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@comcast. com...

I believe you must have BOTH aspherical and fluorite to qualify for L.
There are low dispersion lenses that aren't L. I believe water or at least
dust protection is required to qualify also.

No to all of the above.

I suggest you get and read:

_"EF Lens Work" III: The Eyes of EOS_ by Canon

For example the 400mm f/5.6L has no fluorite elements.

The 400mm f/4.0 DO IS USM has a huge chunk of fluorite and a
multilayer Diffractive Optical element (DO) but doesn't rate an "L".

Here is what Canon has to say about "L" lenses.

pp34 of the above book:

"L Lenses Where Dreams Are Crystal Clear.

The bright red line engraved on the lens barrel . An L for "luxury."
The Canon EF lens L series possesses a level of quality sufficiently
high to be called professional, designed to include groundbreaking
image performance, outstanding operability, and resistance to weather
and aging. "L." This name is reserved only for those few lenses that
can meet stringent standards of performance, using fluorite (an
artificial crystal), a ground and polished aspherical surface, UD,
super UD lenses or other special optical materials. Optical design
with out compromise together with optical theory and precision
engineering technologies that are steeped in tradition as they are
cutting edge. And the result of our relentless pursuit of these ideals
is the L series of Canon EF lenses."

L is for Luxury.


Seems that the three standard features a
-Long life build quality
-Weather sealing
-No plastic


Where do you get "No Plastic" my L's have plastic on them. But you
wouldn't know since you don't have a DSLR much less any L lenses for
it.


I hope you are only referring to the grip ring because if they
incorporate plastic into the mechanism, that's pretty pathetic
for $800+ lenses.
-Rich
  #60  
Old November 27th 05, 04:31 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Canon 20D or Nikon D70s?

"Rich" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:57:03 -0800, "Skip M"
wrote:


A Corvette has about the same EPA rating as the 300C, but has an annoying
"skip shift" feature that skips from 1st to 4th under low load situations,
thus improving the fuel mileage on the EPA tests, but not in real world.
And its 6 speed transmission has two overdrive ratios, as opposed to the
300C's 5 speed and one overdrive.


No one uses the 6th gear in a Vette except maybe on long highway runs
where you get good fuel economy anyway. The Hemi according to some
users nets about 14mpg or less, depending on the vehicle.
I figure my Mach-1 gets worse mileage than the current Corvette.
-Rich


That was my point, the 6th gear on the 'Vette only really affects the EPA
ratings, since the highway mileage tests are done in that gear.
And that 14mpg figure is probably for the trucks, which don't have the
"Displacement on Demand" feature. I've heard that figure bandied about for
the Ram, anyway. Car and Driver got something in the neighborhood of 20mph,
IIRC, during their road test of the 300C, which includes their acceleration
runs, handling course and braking tests.
And I'm sure your Mach I gets worse mileage than most of the performance
cars on the road today, electronic fuel injection and electronic ignitions
are much more efficient than the old ways.

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com


 




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