Mirror Lockup Necessary on Tripod?

I'm looking to get into medium format photography. I feel like I've
pretty much maxed what I can do with 35mm and want to go to the next
stage.

I shoot almost exclusively outdoors and nature. I almost always take
a tripod with me. I'm looking at the Bronica ET* series, they are
affordable and plentiful on ebay. I like the Bronica because it has
interchangeable backs and metered finders. I've heard that the mirror
slap is pretty substantial. At what point is it necessary to put the
camera on a tripod?

I've heard some say that even a tripod doesn't help! I like to
photograph slot canyons (who doesnt?) with exposures from 2 - 10
seconds possible (mounted on a tripod). I would think that due to the
length of the exposure, a slight movement in the beginning wouldnt
matter on long exposures. But on an exposure of 1/15

So I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on mirror lockup, at what
speeds does mirror slap become noticable, and how effective are
tripods at countering mirror slap?

Thanks for the input, this info determines if I go with an ETRSI (with
lockup) or just any of the ET series.

"Mike Johnson" wrote:

I shoot almost exclusively outdoors and nature. I almost always take
a tripod with me. I'm looking at the Bronica ET* series, they are
affordable and plentiful on ebay. I like the Bronica because it has
interchangeable backs and metered finders. I've heard that the mirror
slap is pretty substantial. At what point is it necessary to put the
camera on a tripod?

I don't know about the Bronica, but with the Mamiya 645 Pro TL, careful
handholding at 1/125 (with lenses in the 35mm to 110mm range) works fine.
The problem, of course, is that you don't have a choice of aperture and
there are a lot of shots you can't take.

I've heard some say that even a tripod doesn't help! I like to
photograph slot canyons (who doesnt?) with exposures from 2 - 10
seconds possible (mounted on a tripod). I would think that due to the
length of the exposure, a slight movement in the beginning wouldnt
matter on long exposures. But on an exposure of 1/15

That's what people say...

So I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on mirror lockup, at what
speeds does mirror slap become noticable, and how effective are
tripods at countering mirror slap?

Thanks for the input, this info determines if I go with an ETRSI (with
lockup) or just any of the ET series.

IMHO, mirror lockup _is_ important, although it depends on the tripod and
shutter speed. IMHO, most CF tripods are really springy and bouncy and
provide very little damping of mechanical motion. Unless you are using
either a Velbon Neo Carmagne 730 or larger CF tripod, or a heavy metal
tripod, I'd think mirror lockup was absolutely essential.

The bottom line (again, IMHO) is that the mirrors in MF cameras are pretty
substantial, so I'd much prefer a camera with mirror lockup.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

In article ,
"David J. Littleboy" wrote:

"Mike Johnson" wrote:

I shoot almost exclusively outdoors and nature. I almost always take
a tripod with me. I'm looking at the Bronica ET* series, they are
affordable and plentiful on ebay. I like the Bronica because it has
interchangeable backs and metered finders. I've heard that the mirror
slap is pretty substantial. At what point is it necessary to put the
camera on a tripod?

I don't know about the Bronica, but with the Mamiya 645 Pro TL, careful
handholding at 1/125 (with lenses in the 35mm to 110mm range) works fine.
The problem, of course, is that you don't have a choice of aperture and
there are a lot of shots you can't take.

I've heard some say that even a tripod doesn't help! I like to
photograph slot canyons (who doesnt?) with exposures from 2 - 10
seconds possible (mounted on a tripod). I would think that due to the
length of the exposure, a slight movement in the beginning wouldnt
matter on long exposures. But on an exposure of 1/15

That's what people say...

So I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on mirror lockup, at what
speeds does mirror slap become noticable, and how effective are
tripods at countering mirror slap?

Thanks for the input, this info determines if I go with an ETRSI (with
lockup) or just any of the ET series.

IMHO, mirror lockup _is_ important, although it depends on the tripod and
shutter speed. IMHO, most CF tripods are really springy and bouncy and
provide very little damping of mechanical motion. Unless you are using
either a Velbon Neo Carmagne 730 or larger CF tripod, or a heavy metal
tripod, I'd think mirror lockup was absolutely essential.

The bottom line (again, IMHO) is that the mirrors in MF cameras are pretty
substantial, so I'd much prefer a camera with mirror lockup.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan




Depends on the camera as well. Since the mirror is fully up prior to the
shutter opening and the slap most people feel is the mirror coming down
after the shutter closes it becomes important how well a camera dampens
the mirror's up motion. For instance, with the Rollei SL66 and 6xxx
series, the mirror is dampened so mirror lock up is not as necessary as
with less well dampened cameras. I have regularly hand held the 6006 and
6008 at 1/15th and have prints up to 30x40" at this speed. And yes I
brace my elbows into my body, take a deep breath and squeeze the button
evenly.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

(Mike Johnson) writes:

SNIP
I shoot almost exclusively outdoors and nature. I almost always take
a tripod with me. I'm looking at the Bronica ET* series, they are
affordable and plentiful on ebay. I like the Bronica because it has
interchangeable backs and metered finders. I've heard that the mirror
slap is pretty substantial. At what point is it necessary to put the
camera on a tripod?

I'm happy to tell you that the answer depends on several variables, so
you'll have to work that out for yourself. I use a Pentax 67, and mirror
slap is not a big deal for me. Handholding it is normal, but I always use a
tripod for longer exposures. I have never locked the mirror up, and I have
not seen any blur related to camera movement.


I've heard some say that even a tripod doesn't help! I like to
photograph slot canyons (who doesnt?) with exposures from 2 - 10
seconds possible (mounted on a tripod). I would think that due to the
length of the exposure, a slight movement in the beginning wouldnt
matter on long exposures. But on an exposure of 1/15

I more often have exposures in the long fraction of a second rather than
several seconds. I have not had a problem with vibration after a normal
shutter release on my Pentax. I sometimes take photos with a 35mm camera
attached to a telescope. It is absolutely necessary to use mirror lockup
then, as the whole system vibrates well into the exposure if I don't. With
lenses attached to the camera instead, I have never noticed blur on a
tripod on either the 6x7 or the 35mm camera.

Good luck and have fun with your new camera.
--
Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip@
http://www.PhilipStripling.com/ | my domain is read daily.

Mike Johnson wrote:

At what point is it necessary to put the
camera on a tripod?

Anytime you want a high quality image. Otherwise you're accepting a second
rate image qualkity for convinience. Sometimes a tripod isn't possible but
you're always taking a quality hit. The odds increase with higher shutter
speeds but they are still there.



So I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on mirror lockup, at what
speeds does mirror slap become noticable, and how effective are
tripods at countering mirror slap?



Depends on the weight/size of the tripod. What I've determined is with MLU
you can get the same image quality using 1 size smaller tripod. Camera
shake is camera shake. Some people claim they see no difference with and
without a tripod, I then have to question their methods. Maybe dumbing down
their film during processing?
--

Stacey

Bob Salomon wrote:

I have regularly hand held the 6006 and
6008 at 1/15th and have prints up to 30x40" at this speed.

But how many "good" ones would you get in a row? Hand holding always comes
down to "rolling the dice", sometimes it's the only way to get the shot but
it's always risky.

--

Stacey

Mike Johnson writes:

I've heard that the mirror slap is pretty substantial.

Mirror movement is most critical when the shutter speed is comparable to
the duration of the movement. That is, if it takes 1/15 of a second for
the mirror to move, a shutter speed of 1/15 of a second is particularly
likely to show the blurring effects of mirror movement. Shorter
exposures are so short that the mirror can't move very far and the
blurring is minimal; longer exposures are so long that the brief period
during which the mirror moves the camera doesn't have much effect on the
total exposure. A speed of 1/15 second on many cameras is one of the
most vulnerable, but it varies from one camera to another.

At what point is it necessary to put the camera on a tripod?

Any time that you need the absolutely sharpest image on film. The small
movements of handheld photography put an upper limit on sharpness;
sometimes this is important, sometimes it's not.

I've heard some say that even a tripod doesn't help!

A tripod does not help with mirror movement; you need to lock the mirror
up before making the exposure. A tripod only minimizes external sources
of camera motion, such as your trembling hands.

I like to photograph slot canyons (who doesnt?) with exposures
from 2 - 10 seconds possible (mounted on a tripod). I would think
that due to the length of the exposure, a slight movement in the
beginning wouldnt matter on long exposures. But on an exposure of 1/15

You're correct: for long exposures (and short exposures), mirror
movement won't matter. A 1/15 second exposure, though, is quite
vulnerable.

So I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on mirror lockup, at what
speeds does mirror slap become noticable, and how effective are
tripods at countering mirror slap?

See above.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

see http://medfmt.8k.com/third/mlu.html on mirror lockup benefits;
basically, I don't see a lot of complaints about this on the bronica
mailing list, you might check their archives and ask some owners online
see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/lists.html on mailing lists in MF etc.
Even the classic bronica S2A/EC, which have the worst mirror slap in MF,
do fine when used on a tripod, largely as the noise and motion is mostly
after the exposure is over (so never impacts image on film). This is also
a bigger deal in 35mm, as MF cameras have more mass, so better dampening

for a hands on pro photographer Danny Gonzalez's review of ETR series, see
http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/go2.html#bronicaetr


hth bobm

--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

I'm looking to get into medium format photography. I feel like I've
pretty much maxed what I can do with 35mm and want to go to the next
stage.

I shoot almost exclusively outdoors and nature. I almost always take
a tripod with me. I'm looking at the Bronica ET* series, they are
affordable and plentiful on ebay. I like the Bronica because it has
interchangeable backs and metered finders. I've heard that the mirror
slap is pretty substantial. At what point is it necessary to put the
camera on a tripod?

I've heard some say that even a tripod doesn't help! I like to
photograph slot canyons (who doesnt?) with exposures from 2 - 10
seconds possible (mounted on a tripod). I would think that due to the
length of the exposure, a slight movement in the beginning wouldnt
matter on long exposures. But on an exposure of 1/15

So I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on mirror lockup, at what
speeds does mirror slap become noticable, and how effective are
tripods at countering mirror slap?

Thanks for the input, this info determines if I go with an ETRSI (with
lockup) or just any of the ET series.

a lot depends on the tripod. you can get more vibration on some pods than
others, sometimes more than handholding in a magazine article I once viewed.

a good heavy tripod with a middle brace, little to no center post extension.
etc.

I used to use the mirror up switch a lot with the older mamiya 645, but when
I moved to the super I stopped, (though that could have been as much a
matter of the switch becoming a tiny hard to turn button vs. the easy to
flip lever of the original)

In article ,
Stacey wrote:

Bob Salomon wrote:

I have regularly hand held the 6006 and
6008 at 1/15th and have prints up to 30x40" at this speed.

But how many "good" ones would you get in a row? Hand holding always comes
down to "rolling the dice", sometimes it's the only way to get the shot but
it's always risky.

No problem handholding the 6008 while doing auto bracketing at 1/15 to
1/30.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.