booting computers

Whisky-dave wrote:
On May 3, 9:21Â*pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg
Whisky-dave wrote:
On May 2, 10:14Â*pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg
Whisky-dave wrote:
On May 1, 2:51Â*pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg
Whisky-dave wrote:

That depends on how you work.
Lots of programs and windows open.
So not very efficiently then.
I'm switching between tasks, as needed. Â*Very efficient.
I do the same but I don;t have every aplpication open atr the same
time as there's little point.

Neither do I. Â*Just a lot.

So how long do you think it takes to open the"just a lot ?

More time than I want to spend.

Worse, just opening them isn't the main problem. I want back
to the last state I used them. So open documents, move cursors,
resize windows[1], get back edit tracks and undo moves, ...


In fact it can be a disratcing if you have more to choose from.

Virtual desktops.

So you're not worried by all, the extra resources having so much open.

I am not. After all, on my system programs don't behave like
wild hogs and assume they're the only thing running on the
machine. Oh, and there's a proper and well working resource
management system at my beck and call --- after all, we're
not talking about Windows.


Have you ever wondered why people desire/want/demand more and more RAM
in their computer
that they had previously. Why do people upgrade RAM ?

Because their programs behave like wild hogs, irresponsible
hogging all system resources and gulping down memory like there
was no tomorrow on a system that's a memory hog itself and doesn't
manage to handle such conditions gracefully.

Sure, *sometimes* the people start using much larger data sets
to begin with. But even a 36 MPix image stored as 64-bit RGB
triples and an 64 bit Alpha-channel does consume only 1,152 MByte.
And of course you can mmap such a file and use the system's
clever caching algorithms (designed to keep everything running)
instead of copying it into RAM ... OK, probably not workable
on Windows.

Or you can write your own caching system and do the equivalent
of an mmap with your own routines (but you do loose the whole
system view).

I can set every application to open at startup/login.
Doesn't return the application to the last state at all.
Some do firefox did last night asking if I want to restore to last
session,
I didn't.
Firefox is *one* application out of hundreds I use that don't.
I don;t see the need to use 100 applications, do you use a differtn WP
for each letter you write ?
Apparently threre''s over 200,000 apps for my iPad I doubt I used more
than a dozen.

Apparently you use your computer only in a very few ways.
Fine, but don't think everyone does.

In a few ways, not sure what you mean by that.
I use it as a computer not as a hammer, I don;t use it to bake bread
either.

You only use it for email, newsgroups, photos, websurfing.
Maybe a game, too, but that's all.


I also tend to save nmy work,m if I need every second accounted for I
can put any document as a startup item and can have any document
applcatioin/game
open at login rather than starup as that's more useful.
Fiddling with the startup is manual, and tends to cost more
time than it saves. Â*Such stuff needs to be fully automatic.
No it doesn't
if the file is open I right-click on it on the icon in the dock and I
can set open at login.

And that opens the file with the right program, at the right
place, with the same undo history and same cursor position?

yes, it's a Mac not a PC how many more times.

So it did open all applications again, with everything?

I have even left a game 'running' Command and conqure generals.

So it did open C&C again?

I set the option for teh on/off buttonm at the back of my mac to
enable sleep
and on holding it in my computer slept, the helocopters froze any
firing halted
and teh screen went blank, or pressing the spacebar it resumed teh
game teh helicopters were still
in the same place 17 hours later and contiunued their assult once the
computer was awake.


Oh, but it *didn't* reopen anything! Oh, but you can do that
even with a stupid Windows XP! Oh, you're not understanding
a word I say!

You didn't even switch the computer off! You just sent it to
sleep. Pull the plug, and POOF, no more saved state.


maybe you need to use 3 or 4 aplications or edit the Â*registary.
I admit I don't know how to do this in windows7

I don't use Windows for anything but some games.

So what do you use then, when you're playing games do you have word,
excel, photoshop, powerpoint,
browsers, bburing dvds/cds all open at the same time as playign a
game.

I see you really think of computers as narrow appliances, only
good for word[2], excel[3], photoshop, powerpoint[4], browsers,
games and CD/DVD burning.

How about --- and that list isn't even scratching the surface ---
writing articles (scientific, for the newspapers, for wikipedia
etc etc etc), blogging, reading books, listening to music,
watching instruction videos, debugging hardware, encoding data
(e.g. CDs to Ogg Vorbis), keeping inventory (be it your shop,
your photogear, your customers, your CD collection, ...), applying
your predictions to the stock market data, working on the genome
project, measuring printer/paper/ink responses, creating co-linked
ICC profiles, writing webpages, scanning photos, programming
your own newsreader, extending your image editor with plugins,
coding your own plugins, testing your theory regarding image
reconstruction by making a prototype and comparing that to other
algorithms, conducting double-blind tests, writing your own games,
learning about the water distribution in the sahel zone, learning
a new programmimg language, screen-scraping a ... suboptimal
interface to some database to filter, enrich, sort and display
the data on your own terms, controlling light, heating, cooling,
door stati, cleaning robot, reserves in the fridge and deep cooler
(and reordering whatever is going to run out), watching the alarm
system, looking over the cameras for movement etc automatically
and acting upon that data, finding similarity between music pieces
by e.g. comparing the BPM and the chromaticity of the sound,
displaying patterns depending frequencies, channel position,
duration etc of some sound, looking up the tracks of the CD just
inserted, handling todo-lists, synchronizing data (e.g. calendars,
addresses, music, and 1000 more things), recording TV shows and
watching the recorded shows without advertizing at a different
speed, receiving faxes and routing phone calls, helping to
solve crimes, creating systems that detects and interprets
street signs in real time, automatically routing electrical
connections for hardware boards, designing integrated circuits,
rendering photorealistic 3D images, creating imaginary worlds,
interacting with other people, creating learning environments,
etc etc etc etc etc

I do some of the above. I 'do' some things that aren't listed up
above (e.g. automatic backups and so on, which are things you don't
'do' as such but setup once and let it run. Or let's name
virtual machines.).


Of course I could do what you suggested adn pay the electricity
company £250 a year
to have my aplpicatiojns readuy for me the second I get home.
But that's of little use in theb real world.
... for you.
for most it seems.

Yeah, a good model for servers.

Servers have a differnet use, I'm not sure how many peole play games
on a server machine
or photoshop.

There is no law that says a server must run on a server machine.


I don;t know anyone else that leaves tehre computer on all day and
night
because it saves them time opening applications.

You haven't really understood my arguments, have you?

because you haven;t any have you.

Whisky-dave, you wouldn't see a valid argument if it painted
itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing
"valid arguments are here again!"

Your brain's just too pickled by now.


For most any software up[date especailly virus related always needs
the computer to be shutdown
and restarted.

Really? Â*Funny, the only things for which the computer must be
shutdown and rebooted a
- new kernel with new data structures (most bugfixes,
Â* including security fixes, don't change data structures and
Â* thus don't *need* reboots
Â* Â* web.mit.edu/ksplice/doc/ksplice.pdf
Â* )
Â* Actually, the computer doesn't need to be switched off:
Â* "kexec".
- corrupted hardware status (e.g. a graphics card set into a
Â* non-responding status (program bug!) which needs a power reset
Â* to clear), when the hardware cannot be power-cycled and
Â* reattached without power-cycling the CPU & co.
- hardware that needs to be added, removed or replaced but
Â* cannot be disconnected or connected without shutting down
Â* the computer (or where the chance for damage due to
Â* accidental electrical connections or short circuits is
Â* deemed too high with a powered computer).

yes so reboots are needed, even for servers.

Yes, my alcohol-sodden friend, your argument "For most any
software up[date especailly virus related always needs the
computer to be shutdown and restarted" has not only been
slain, it has also been drawn, hung, quartered, burned and
the ashes strewn into the wind.

But you're too dense to notice.


Â*But I use sleep so it's not an issue. with SSD I might turn off
rather than sleep.
Try it. Â*Turn off the computer, turn it back on and see how
long it takes for every program to be back at exactly the
state you left it at.
What would be the point of that ?
It would prove my point. Â*Which is why you won't do it.
You point is that you keep the computer on to save launch times isn't
it.

Nope. Â*That's just one point. Â*Others are it also being a server
(yes, that's bad form) and it also being available for remote
connections.

I can still do that by waking for administartor access from sleep.

I won't give you the keys to my house to wake up the
computers every 5 minutes for administrator access, because
one script or another program needs to run then.


I'll say again using sleep it takes less than 3 seconds to get back to
where I was.
For me that;s not really significant in one day.
You claim to save a week, by leaving it on.
It would take me over 200,000 wake from sleeps at 3 seconds each
for it to be a week.

Comparing sweet water fish with solar power stations usually
gives strange results.

So why compare a 'PC' with a server ?

Oh, so your neat little world cannot accept server work being
done on a personal computer. Drink more and all will be revealed
to you.


If I'[m going to write an email do I really need to startup photshop
and open every image on teh computer to save time.
If I really am going to write email, do I really need to
switch on the computer first?
Not if you leave it on I guess, but does that go for the monitor too.

Monitors sleep automatically and wake automatically.

You mean external monitors,

Nope. Any monitor, internal or external. OK, that may not
be possible with your computer due to stupid software.

and even then I have options of when my
monitor goes to sleep.

And I don't?

I can set it from about 3mins to 3 hours or never.

I can set it from less than one minute to as many hours as I
like. Or never. Or dim first. Or don't dim first. And
when which depth of sleep is wanted. (Yes, there are at
least 3 different stages.)


As for sleeping or waking automatically that doen;t make any sense as
your computer should be controlling
the monitor, you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe monitors go off
and on automatically.

Ah, let me explain it for an whisky-pickled brain: Of course
the computer controls that. But I don't even need to press a
key for that to work.


What do you think happens with servers do you think the monitoirs go
off and on at random.

What server does have a monitor?


Well my make takes about 15 seconds to open PS it takes me longer to
fill teh kettle
which is pretty much teh first thing I do when I get home from work.
well actuqally I hit teh spacebar which wakes my mac.
Within a few second most things are where they were when I put my mac
to sllep 8 hours earlier.
All I've saved is 8 hours of electricity Â*which in reality is less
than a pint of beer,
and perhaps increased the life span of my HD at least.
Your HD lives better without constant stopping and starting.
It is only designed for a limited number of starts and stops.
Total and utter rubbish you haven;t a clue
http://storageguru.org/archives/2011...isk-drive-perf...
Reliability
Disk Drive manufactures measure reliability as the Mean Time between
Failure (MBTF) measured in hours. Â*The MBTF for a drive is based on a
testing sample of drives and calculating the frequency of how often
failures occur.
Nothing to do with how many times it's switched on or off.

So why does SMART report things like Spin-Up Time (pre-failure),

it's useless, most people know that.
if you SMART report is OK that doesn;t mean you drive won;t die in the
next 5 mins.

Idiot.
If you're not bleeding all over, it also means you won't die in
the next 5 minutes, either.
But if blood is spurting from your body, chances are you'll be
dead within minutes and you should do something IMMEDIATELY.

Same with SMART.
So Spin-Up time is relevant, and you have no arguments. Again.


Start / Stop Count, Spin-Up Retry Count (pre-failure), Power
Cycle Count, Head Retract Cycle Count and Load / Unload Cycle,
when that's no problem at all?

You forgot about humidity and temerature, and force adn magnetic
fields they too
affect drive life.

So you agree that *your* "Total and utter rubbish you haven;t a
clue" was total and utter rubbish.


Also when my computers asleep it's unlikely to get hacked or be used
to spam anyone.
Really.
yes really.

Embedding an axe in the mainboard gives even more protection.

Would you do that with all your apps running.

I would do that with your computers. That is safer for you and
your computer.


I guess you even think software can be installed when there;s no power
to the computer.

I guess you're drunk or maleficient.

So you missed the point about computers being on longer are more
supseptable
to a program looking to install it'sself on to your system.

With the relevant programs "looking to install it'sself on to
your system" coming onto every IP address every 20 minutes your
point isn't relevant at all.

So you're drunk and maleficient.


I can walk away from my computer at any time and return at any
time and continue working, no matter what time it is. Â*That's worth
lots to me.
It is to me, but when I go to work I put my computer to sleep.
If I do suddently want to use it I have to take a bus and a tube and
walk, about 1 hours journey
I can connect to my computer from everywhere on the world.
So bus/tube/walk doesn't even apply.
Me too, and using my ipad I can connect to home if I wanted to, but
only if my computer is on.
I can use the wake function for administartor access if I really need
to.
I don;t need my omputer bringing 100s of watts eveyday jusyt incase I
might need it.
Leaving lights burning costs way more than a few watt-hours.
I don;t do that either, I don;t leave my kettle on, I don;t leave my
TV on.
I'm betting you don;t even know what power your computer uses when on,
idle, sleeping
or playing a high end game or other processor intensive app.
I don't really care for computers that are not fed from
batteries.
Which is even stranger you think leaving battery powered compters on
all the time extends their life ?

Let me rephrase that: How much power a computer uses does not
interest me unless it's running on batteries.

Why be so concenred about computers that run on batteries,

*sigh*
Because batteries have limited power.

surely open
and program
on such a device will take a lot longer than leaving it on,

Empty battery, no program. Simple enough?


most
battery computers arev significantly slower
than desktops and servers,

Most of them aren't used for high power programs most of the time,
but for their mobility.


but you'll leave those on 24/7 so same
program opening times
but you'll shutdown a battery computer why ? why is it so less
important to have all your programs
open instantly on a battery PC than a mains powered one' ?

Because, my friend with a brain in a coma, empty battery -
no program at all.


I know my mac mini uses an extra 10 watts when burnung a DVD.
Irrelevant.
More relavant for laptops or as you call them battery computers.

You can run lots of non-laptop computers on batteries. Â*You have
heard of uninterruptible power supplies?

They use battereis don;t they, that's what makes them uninterruptible.

*applause*


With my old tower leaving that on for an hour used similar power to 11
CFL lights
I haven't got 11 lights in the flats !!!
Time to buy a laptop.
Why so I can get less performace per £ or $

Because they use less power!

You said you weren;t worried about power and that yopu leave computers
on all the time
to save you a few seconds wait, have you changed your mind ?

*I*'m not worried. YOU are.


We're not even talking about automatic backup and other automated
processes (indexing, for example), which are mostly set to run
at night so they don't interfere with the day's work.
That's another aspect and if I really wanted to save 12 seconds a day
I could set my Mac
to either startup at a specific time or wake/sleep.
I don;t think you can do that with PCs
Well, you don't think much ... BIOSes have startup at given
times for a decade now.
So you need to get into the BIOS exactly not exactly a user friendly
approach.
Wrong.
So what keys do you need to presss on startup ?
I don't even remember, it's been too long.
So you don;t need to change the BIOS that often then,
but its user friendly enough for you to forget which keycombs you need
to get to it.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Â*I can set start times in
the BIOS without entering the BIOS.

How ?

By setting the right bits in the right chips. There are even
programs that do that for you. Well, maybe not for you, but
it works on PCs.


Mosyt computers users don;t ........
I've heard the human brain can quiet easily work out such things
especailly in English.

Vrey, vrey qtueily, tgouhh. You tned to mlpiessl ltos of wrods.

But still readable...

You really don't want to be read, do you?


Â*Leave it sleeping
whenever you have no arguments. Â*Leave it sleeping if you don't
feel like superficial spellchecking. Â*Saves a lot of energy.
I leave it sleeping when I'm not using it, why do you find that so
difficult to grasp ?
You shouldn't use it at some times when you do.
But you're also saying I should use it whenh I don't such as when I'm
asleep

Nope.

So why do you find it starnge that I set my computer to sleep when I'm
asleep
and not using it,

You should hibernate it. Saves more energy.

why do you think computers have a sleep function ?

For short-time pauses.

mto clear their head for the follwong day ?

That doesn't make sense.


Why would they have such a useless fuction ?
TVs have this fuction too,

Nope, they don't stay locked to the signal, for example.
They only save the same amount of state as if they were
switched off completely.

in fact a lot of things do, even cars have
a similar fuction called neutral I think.

In neutral the motor continues to run.



then it's more efficint for teh computer to be awake to check spelling
is that it ?

From a false assumption follows what?

makes you wonder why computers have off switchess especailly servers,
if they are never meant to be switched off.

WRONG. From a false assumption follows NO valid conclusion
(as in: it may be true or false, but it's unproven).

-Wolfgang

[1] Windows users: just because I click on a window doesn't mean
it pops up in front. Just because a window is active and
takes mouse and keyboard input doesn't mean it needs to be
clicked on first. For some tasks this is very helpful
and important to easy use.

[2] That it's not called sentence, paragraph, page, chapter,
article, letter, book, or similar should be a pretty good
hint what it's good for.

[3] good only for it's flight simulator and making nearly
untrackable errors in spreadsheets. Did you know that they
examined mission and even survival critical spreadsheets for
planning the future that had been in use for at least 6 months
in earnest in companies?
Not a *single* *one* was correct. Every last one of them
was buggy, returning incorrect data.

[4] Main use: dazzle audiences, but don't transport useful
information. Go look up the Columbia Accident Investigation
Board's report and what they say about powerpoint.