SOAKING NEGS

I don't have any photo flow. What's the next best way to soak negs?

DNT spake thus:

I don't have any photo flow. What's the next best way to soak negs?

Dilute soap (like dish detergent). Just a drop in a lot of water (gallon
or more).


--
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- Uri Avnery, Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom.
(http://counterpunch.org/avnery08032006.html)

In article .com,
"DNT" writes:

I don't have any photo flow. What's the next best way to soak negs?

Photo Flo is normally used as the final processing step in order to reduce
water drying spots. If this is what you want, two other options are to use
a distilled water rinse without a wetting agent or to use a drop or two of
liquid dishwashing detergent (the sort used for manual washing, not the
type that's used in dishwashers) in the final rinse water. I've heard from
a retired Kodak chemist that dishwashing detergents might have negative
long-term effects on film, but I've also seen reports from people who've
used dishwashing detergents for years and don't seem to have problems.
Film wetting agents are cheap enough that the only reason I can think of
to use dishwashing detergent instead is if you're out of true wetting
agent and can't get it for some reason or in time to do the processing.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:07:44 -0000,
(Rod Smith)
wrote:

use
a distilled water rinse without a wetting agent



August 28, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

That's what I've done for years. It's
absolute protection from water spots.

My 'refinement' of the method is that I hang
my rolls of film when finished, and squirt
them from top to bottom on both sides from a
plastic bottle full of distilled water.

Actually, I do have a dishwashing-detergent
connection: the closure of the common type of
dish soap container from the supermarket
makes a perfect squirter for dribbling the
distilled water down my films. It's easy to
clean of the soap when retrieved from the
garbage, too! Right now I have a one liter
Coca Cola bottle full of distilled water,
with a dish soap dispenser cap on it.
Eventually the Coke bottle will split and
I'll have to replace it at the huge cost of
rinsing one out.

It might even be an improvement over this
technique to soak the film in several changes
of distilled water, allowing enough time for
anything absorbed into the emulsion to soak
out. Say three changes of distilled water,
for three to five minutes each or
thereabouts. This way would cost a bit more
because it would use more distilled water.
And it would take longer to do. Neither way
seems a huge cost...

When I moved a few years ago, I left the
wetting agent behind. It had been unopened
for twenty years or more. (I actually hate
the stuff because of its evil odour. Yes, I'm
a bit weird when it comes to smells in my
darkroom...).

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

"Lloyd Erlick" Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:07:44 -0000,
(Rod Smith)
wrote:

use
a distilled water rinse without a wetting agent



August 28, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

That's what I've done for years. It's
absolute protection from water spots.

My 'refinement' of the method is that I hang
my rolls of film when finished, and squirt
them from top to bottom on both sides from a
plastic bottle full of distilled water.

Actually, I do have a dishwashing-detergent
connection: the closure of the common type of
dish soap container from the supermarket
makes a perfect squirter for dribbling the
distilled water down my films. It's easy to
clean of the soap when retrieved from the
garbage, too! Right now I have a one liter
Coca Cola bottle full of distilled water,
with a dish soap dispenser cap on it.
Eventually the Coke bottle will split and
I'll have to replace it at the huge cost of
rinsing one out.

It might even be an improvement over this
technique to soak the film in several changes
of distilled water, allowing enough time for
anything absorbed into the emulsion to soak
out. Say three changes of distilled water,
for three to five minutes each or
thereabouts. This way would cost a bit more
because it would use more distilled water.
And it would take longer to do. Neither way
seems a huge cost...

When I moved a few years ago, I left the
wetting agent behind. It had been unopened
for twenty years or more. (I actually hate
the stuff because of its evil odour. Yes, I'm
a bit weird when it comes to smells in my
darkroom...).

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

Distilled water can elminate rings caused by deposits of
minerals from the water but will not elmimate drying marks
caused by droplets of water. These marks are caused by
uneven shrinkage of the gelatin as it drys. Squeegeening the
film will eliminate both. The use of a wetting agent helps
because it eliminates the dange of scratching the film when
squeegeeing. A good film squeegee is soft sponge, harder
rubber squeegees tend to cause more scratching.
a very small amount of dishwashing detergent along with
some rubbing alcohol makes a good final rinse. Photo-Flo is
better because it is intended for film but the detergent is
mostly made up of a similar wetting agent. The alcohol in
combination with either makes a sort of super wetting agent.
For Photo-Flo use about 35ml of 70% Isopropyl rubbing
alcohol and about 2.5ml of Photo-Flo per liter of water. If
the tap water in your area is very dirty or has a lot of
minerals in it making the rinse up with distilled water
helps eliminate deposits of minerals and dirt. If no
distilled water is available use tap water that has been
boiled for about five minutes and allowed to stand while
cooling. The boiling removes some hardness (deposited on the
vessle) and will coagulate organic matter. This is also a
good procedure for water to be used to make up darkroom
chemicals because it drives off dissolved gasses.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:33:49 GMT, "Richard
Knoppow" wrote:

Distilled water can elminate rings caused by deposits of
minerals from the water but will not elmimate drying marks
caused by droplets of water. These marks are caused by
uneven shrinkage of the gelatin as it drys.


August 29, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

I've hung my rolls of film and squirted them
with distilled water for years. Many, many
rolls have been sprayed by 'overspray' from
the other rolls. Often they have been dry or
close to dry when this happened. I have never
had a visible drying mark from this cause.
When I first started this practice, I thought
overspray on dry or partially dry rolls might
be a problem, but I could never see any
effect. The same has been true of prints hung
to dry.

The types of film one uses obviously will
determine the effect of droplets drying on
the film. I mainly use Kodak film these days,
almost always T-Max 400 (TMY) in 120 format.
I've also found no problem from Tri-X, and
from Ilford HP5 and D3200. Also, the Agfa
films I tried (APX types) showed no
detrimental effects.

My opinion, based on handling the actual
films, is that current production films do
not suffer from these effects. I can't speak
for the films that are sometimes promoted as
old tech. I've never used Foma or Efke
products, for example.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:33:49 GMT, "Richard
Knoppow" wrote:

Squeegeening the
film will eliminate both. The use of a wetting agent helps
because it eliminates the dange of scratching the film when
squeegeeing. A good film squeegee is soft sponge, harder
rubber squeegees tend to cause more scratching.



August 29, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

I have adopted a policy of permitting nothing
to touch the image areas of my photosensitive
materials while they are wet. Only processing
solutions and water are permitted. Excluded
are hands, fingers, tongs, squeegees, flat
work surfaces, drying screens and anything
else.

This practice gives me the ability to make
absolute statements about my work; statements
that are impossible otherwise. For example,
my prints and films are absolutely free of
contamination from a squeegee. They are
absolutely free of scratches and creases
caused by a squeegee. My non-existent drying
screens transfer absolutely nothing to my
prints -- absolutely no chemicals, and
absolutely no bits of dirt and crud to embed
in the print coating come from drying screens
in my drkroom.

It might appear my method somehow adds labor
and raises the level of difficulty of the
whole activity. However, this is not the
case. Overall, my methods have abbreviated
the whole process of making a rigourously
processed product, whether film or print. I
use one tray, which is much easier than a
line of multiple trays. The absence of drying
screens is a wonderful, freeing,
tension-reducing space of unoccupied volume
where the stack of filthy screens would
otherwise squat in my place. The hours of
painstaking examination of the acreage of
screen surfaces for bits of dirt and fibers
that could transfer to my prints is
mercifully absent. The ease of hanging a
print to dry is a marvellous feeling compared
to the heart in mouth feeling of flipping a
print all over the place to squeegee it.

The gambling with a film squeegee is a thing
of the past (did I clean it enough? is it
really wet or does it have a dry spot? is
there any grit in there?). I forgot to
mention: absolutely none of my films have
been damaged by a squeegee for over twenty
years.

But I do not advocate throwing out the
squeegee. It's an important sink cleaning
tool. Also, if you cut out a handful-size
patch of mesh from a drying screen and ball
it up, it will be perfect for scrubbing out a
sink. This would also be a good place to use
that dish washing soap, instead of on rolls
of film. Sometimes a pair of tongs is useful
if something falls down the drain, although
most tongs I've seen are second rate even for
this duty, compared to fingers. Depends what
fell down the drain ...

Most of the time my comments are based on
darkroom work with 'ordinary' or 'normal' or
'usual' or 'unspecialized' materials. Many
people use specialized materials (old-tech
films, self-coated papers, film stored for
many years, etc) or processes (PMK, alt
process, etc) and I can't say anything about
them. But for current, ordinary Kodak films
(and Ilford) of the TMY or HP5 ilk, *careful*
hand processing eliminates the need for many
different tools and techniques.

I'd include a rinse in water containing
alcohol in the specialized group. It's fine
for a special purpose, such as getting the
film dry in a hurry because there is some
pressing need. But for ordinary practice, the
smell of alcohol is not necessary in the
darkroom.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:13:00 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

I have adopted a policy of permitting nothing
to touch the image areas of my photosensitive
materials while they are wet.

At the risk of repeating myself, I still think that the way you put it
in that technical article on your web site:

Drying Screens Get Out of Town If You Know What's Good for You, and
Take Squeegee With You, Too!

is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time!

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:37:28 +0200, Andrew
Price wrote:

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:13:00 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

I have adopted a policy of permitting nothing
to touch the image areas of my photosensitive
materials while they are wet.

At the risk of repeating myself, I still think that the way you put it
in that technical article on your web site:

Drying Screens Get Out of Town If You Know What's Good for You, and
Take Squeegee With You, Too!

is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time!



August 30, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

Thanks! (Repeat yorself all you like ...)

regards,
--le

"Lloyd Erlick" Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:37:28 +0200, Andrew
Price wrote:

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:13:00 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

I have adopted a policy of permitting nothing
to touch the image areas of my photosensitive
materials while they are wet.

At the risk of repeating myself, I still think that the way you put it
in that technical article on your web site:

Drying Screens Get Out of Town If You Know What's Good for You, and
Take Squeegee With You, Too!

is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time!



August 30, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

Thanks! (Repeat yorself all you like ...)

regards,
--le


OK then. -- In lew of distilled water is filtered water OK? If so which of
the following would be most useful?

The charcoal in a plastic container that works fast. _ or the upbeat ceramic
/ charcoal device that's a lot slower _ or the more complex multi filtering
layer hi tech wizzmo that I wonder is more geared to baffling consumers than
giving you tasty water.

--
Otzi