Print degredation

I have some paper B&W prints (20 x 24) made some 30 years ago that are
showing signs of my sloppy processing in that parts of the image are now
looking 'sepia like'.

The change is not so bad that I feel in need of reprinting but I really do
need to stop further degredation.

Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain status-quo or are
more extreme measures needed.
Thanks;

David

Is the sepia in the high lights or in the shadows?

"David Vincent-Jones" wrote in message
news:WdTpg.787$iW2.431@trnddc03...
I have some paper B&W prints (20 x 24) made some 30 years ago that are
showing signs of my sloppy processing in that parts of the image are now
looking 'sepia like'.

The change is not so bad that I feel in need of reprinting but I really do
need to stop further degredation.

Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain status-quo or
are more extreme measures needed.
Thanks;

David

Lew, thanks for the fast response;

The highlights still, relatively, appear to be OK .. with some reasonable
white detail for that reason the general appearance is not so bad. The
blacks, of course, don't show the problem to any great extent.

This is a paper not RC print.

David

"Lew" wrote in message
t...
Is the sepia in the high lights or in the shadows?

"David Vincent-Jones" wrote in message
news:WdTpg.787$iW2.431@trnddc03...
I have some paper B&W prints (20 x 24) made some 30 years ago that are
showing signs of my sloppy processing in that parts of the image are now
looking 'sepia like'.

The change is not so bad that I feel in need of reprinting but I really
do need to stop further degredation.

Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain status-quo or
are more extreme measures needed.
Thanks;

David

REavid Vincent-Jones wrote:

are now looking 'sepia like'.
Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain ...

For starters I'd take it as a straight forward matter. The sepia
is silver sulfide. Thiosulfate will dissolve silver sulfide. So,
pre-soak
in water then soak in a weak plain hypo, sodium thiosulfate bath.
An ounce of the anhydrous or half again as much of the penta
in a quart or liter of water may do. Agitate every few minute
and allow plenty of time. If nothing is happening I'd pull
after an hour. BUT the print may clear in seconds.
I don't know, never tried it. Should be safe. Dan

Thanks ; I will give it a try ...

David
wrote in message
oups.com...
REavid Vincent-Jones wrote:

are now looking 'sepia like'.
Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain ...

For starters I'd take it as a straight forward matter. The sepia
is silver sulfide. Thiosulfate will dissolve silver sulfide. So,
pre-soak
in water then soak in a weak plain hypo, sodium thiosulfate bath.
An ounce of the anhydrous or half again as much of the penta
in a quart or liter of water may do. Agitate every few minute
and allow plenty of time. If nothing is happening I'd pull
after an hour. BUT the print may clear in seconds.
I don't know, never tried it. Should be safe. Dan

"David Vincent-Jones" wrote in message
news:WdTpg.787$iW2.431@trnddc03...
I have some paper B&W prints (20 x 24) made some 30 years
ago that are showing signs of my sloppy processing in that
parts of the image are now looking 'sepia like'.

The change is not so bad that I feel in need of reprinting
but I really do need to stop further degredation.

Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain
status-quo or are more extreme measures needed.
Thanks;

David
A late answer. Its hard to know exactly what caused this.
Yellow or brown stains are often from sulfiding of the
silver caused by decomposition of thiosulfate left in the
emulsion although it can also be caused by residual silver
halide. When its halide it can appear in the clear areas
giving the print an overall yellow or brownish color,
perhaps a bit blotchy. Atmospheric polutants will affect the
image silver causing staining of the image but not the clear
areas. Sulfides from mounting or storage material can also
cause yellow staining, often concentrated near the edges of
the print. Yellow stains can also be caused by the developer
but these usually show up during processing.
The other cause of degradation is oxidation, usually from
gasses in the atmosphere, but oxidants can also come from
mounting materials. Silver oxide can be yellow or brown but
it is often black or metallic looking. The oxides are very
fine and can migrate through the gelatin causing "mirroring"
at the surface and a slight border around dark areas.
Once either process has occured there is not very that
can be done about it.
Sulfide stains can sometimes be removed by the use of a
Permanganate bleach. For instance:

Kodak S-6 Stain Remover

Stock Solution A
Potassium Permanganate 5.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter
Make sure all the Permanganate particles are fully dissolved

Stock Solution B
Cold Water 500.0 ml
Sodium Chloride 75.0 grams
Sulfuric Acid, concentrated 16.0 ml
Water to make 1.0 liter

Sulfuric acid produces great heat when dissolving. Add the
acid to the water slowly with constant stirring. Mix this
solution in a heat proof container.


To use mix equal amounts of A and B. Mix just before use,
the mixed solution does not last.

Bleach the negative or print in this solution until the
image is fullty bleached, about 3 or 4 minutes should be
sufficient.
Then clear in a 1% solution of Sodium Bisulfite or
metabisulfite.
Then rinse well and expose to strong light, preferably
sunlight, and redevelop in a low sulfite developer like
Dektol or D-72 1:2. Then wash thoroughly.

There are other treatments but they have proved to
result in non-permanent images.

You can try refixing but after a couple of weeks of the
original fixing the residual silver halides change into a
form wich can no longer be made completely soluble by the
fixer.

I think it would be easier to reprint. If you do (or after
this treatment) tone the print using Kodak Brown Toner. The
toner will give substantial protection to the image for both
sulfiding and oxidation. This should be routine for any
display print (you can also use Gold toner if you want a
cold tone print).


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"David Vincent-Jones" wrote in message
news:WdTpg.787$iW2.431@trnddc03...
I have some paper B&W prints (20 x 24) made some 30 years
ago that are showing signs of my sloppy processing in that
parts of the image are now looking 'sepia like'.

The change is not so bad that I feel in need of reprinting
but I really do need to stop further degredation.

Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain
status-quo or are more extreme measures needed.
Thanks;

David
I left out a part. If there is "mirroring" from oxidation
you may be able to remove it with a mild silver bleach. The
mirroring is from image silver which has been converted to
Silver Oxide by some polutant, migrated to the surface, and
been reduced back to metallic silver by other polutants.
A good bleach for removing this (also works for dichroic
fog) is a Rapid fixer, like Kodak Rapid Fixer with Hardener,
at film strength, with the addition of 15 grams/liter of
Citric Acid. This solution works slowly but will also bleach
some of the image silver if not watched carefully. Once
bleached the print should be treated in a sulfite wash aid
and washed. The treatment will remove the mirroring but not
restore the image. Keep in mind that some of the silver
making up the image has been lost, there is no way to
replace it.
This treatment can probably be used in conjuction with
the permanganate bleach I described in my first post. This
should be done first and the bleach and redevelopment
afterward.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:04:01 GMT, "Richard Knoppow"
wrote:

A late answer. Its hard to know exactly what caused this.
Yellow or brown stains are often from sulfiding of the
silver caused by decomposition of thiosulfate left in the
emulsion although it can also be caused by residual silver
halide.

How about washing in water that is high in sulfur ? Much of my family
lives in the Owensboro, KY area and when we go for a visit I have to
take bottled water as the sulfur content is high enough to cause my
nose to burn.

==
John S. Douglas
Photographer & Webmaster
Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net

Richard;

Thanks for the very detailed feedback .. both replies.. they gave me some
most useful information.

As a result of selling a house in which I had been living for more than 30
years I came across a ton of images that had been buried and forgotten ..
some processed for commercial purposes in just too much of a hurry .. but a
few that I now feel are well worth salvaging and giving greater prominence
in my current (digital photographic) life.

I have, at any rate, now at least refixed and thoroughly washed the
offending images to prevent further degradation but honestly I think your
ultimate solution of reprinting is probably the best answer to the problem.

Thanks again;

David

"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message
k.net...

"David Vincent-Jones" wrote in message
news:WdTpg.787$iW2.431@trnddc03...
I have some paper B&W prints (20 x 24) made some 30 years ago that are
showing signs of my sloppy processing in that parts of the image are now
looking 'sepia like'.

The change is not so bad that I feel in need of reprinting but I really
do need to stop further degredation.

Is simply refixing and a good wash sufficient to maintain status-quo or
are more extreme measures needed.
Thanks;

David
I left out a part. If there is "mirroring" from oxidation you may be able
to remove it with a mild silver bleach. The mirroring is from image silver
which has been converted to Silver Oxide by some polutant, migrated to the
surface, and been reduced back to metallic silver by other polutants.
A good bleach for removing this (also works for dichroic fog) is a Rapid
fixer, like Kodak Rapid Fixer with Hardener, at film strength, with the
addition of 15 grams/liter of Citric Acid. This solution works slowly but
will also bleach some of the image silver if not watched carefully. Once
bleached the print should be treated in a sulfite wash aid and washed. The
treatment will remove the mirroring but not restore the image. Keep in
mind that some of the silver making up the image has been lost, there is
no way to replace it.
This treatment can probably be used in conjuction with the permanganate
bleach I described in my first post. This should be done first and the
bleach and redevelopment afterward.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"John" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:04:01 GMT, "Richard Knoppow"
wrote:

A late answer. Its hard to know exactly what caused
this.
Yellow or brown stains are often from sulfiding of the
silver caused by decomposition of thiosulfate left in the
emulsion although it can also be caused by residual silver
halide.

How about washing in water that is high in sulfur ? Much
of my family
lives in the Owensboro, KY area and when we go for a visit
I have to
take bottled water as the sulfur content is high enough to
cause my
nose to burn.

==
John S. Douglas
Photographer & Webmaster
Legacy-photo.com - Xs750.net

Beyond my knowledge but it certainly sounds possible.
Other sulfur compounds will certainly cause image
degradation problems.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA