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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 4th 16, 06:42 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
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Posts: 5,467
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article , RichA
wrote:

You read some of the 300-odd comments and it's pretty clear a lot of
people have no CLUE what medium format is, what it is for. "It's
twice the price of my car!" says one lunkhead. A Nikon D810 and
lens costs twice as much as a 60" 4K TV. What has one got to do
with the other?


http://www.dpreview.com/news/0998933...-100mp-medium-

format-camera-co-developed-with-sony#comments

DPreview seems equally perplexed:

"Despite being described as 'full frame' the sensor is 53.7 x
40.4mm, making it two and a half times larger than the 135 format
to which the term is most often applied"

Eh, a "full frame" MF sensor would be 56x41.5 mm, making this one of the very
few actual full frame (or at least close enough to actually be called full
frame) in existence. Hasselblad's biggest sensor is 53.7 x 40.2 mm so the
difference isn't that huge. I have no problem calling either "full frame".

"Full frame" has nothing to do with the 135 format, it has to do with what
lenses you use. The MF lenses have for many years used crop factor sensors, and
only now recently have sensors started to catch up with the "smallest" version
of the medium format

6x4.5 was the most common format, another common was 6x7, which is a frame of
56x67 mm, which obviously is huge, and these sensors are far from "full frame"
in comparison.

I saw nothing strange about the comments - most seemed to know exactly what MF
was, and made some jokes about it, that's all.

--
Sandman
  #2  
Old January 4th 16, 06:52 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
[email protected]
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Posts: 91
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

On 4 Jan 2016 17:42:18 GMT, Sandman wrote:

In article , RichA
wrote:

You read some of the 300-odd comments and it's pretty clear a lot of
people have no CLUE what medium format is, what it is for. "It's
twice the price of my car!" says one lunkhead. A Nikon D810 and
lens costs twice as much as a 60" 4K TV. What has one got to do
with the other?


http://www.dpreview.com/news/0998933...-100mp-medium-

format-camera-co-developed-with-sony#comments

DPreview seems equally perplexed:

"Despite being described as 'full frame' the sensor is 53.7 x
40.4mm, making it two and a half times larger than the 135 format
to which the term is most often applied"

Eh, a "full frame" MF sensor would be 56x41.5 mm, making this one of the very
few actual full frame (or at least close enough to actually be called full
frame) in existence. Hasselblad's biggest sensor is 53.7 x 40.2 mm so the
difference isn't that huge. I have no problem calling either "full frame".

"Full frame" has nothing to do with the 135 format, it has to do with what
lenses you use. The MF lenses have for many years used crop factor sensors, and
only now recently have sensors started to catch up with the "smallest" version
of the medium format

6x4.5 was the most common format, another common was 6x7, which is a frame of
56x67 mm, which obviously is huge, and these sensors are far from "full frame"
in comparison.

I saw nothing strange about the comments - most seemed to know exactly what MF
was, and made some jokes about it, that's all.


I read that, and, like you, I expected better from DP Review. It's a
"645" format camera, and that sensor is, essentially, full frame for
that format. Clearly some neophytes working there.
  #3  
Old January 4th 16, 07:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article ,
Sandman wrote:

You read some of the 300-odd comments and it's pretty clear a lot of
people have no CLUE what medium format is, what it is for. "It's
twice the price of my car!" says one lunkhead. A Nikon D810 and
lens costs twice as much as a 60" 4K TV. What has one got to do
with the other?


http://www.dpreview.com/news/0998933...-100mp-medium-

format-camera-co-developed-with-sony#comments

DPreview seems equally perplexed:

"Despite being described as 'full frame' the sensor is 53.7 x
40.4mm, making it two and a half times larger than the 135 format
to which the term is most often applied"

Eh, a "full frame" MF sensor would be 56x41.5 mm, making this one of the very
few actual full frame (or at least close enough to actually be called full
frame) in existence. Hasselblad's biggest sensor is 53.7 x 40.2 mm so the
difference isn't that huge. I have no problem calling either "full frame".

"Full frame" has nothing to do with the 135 format, it has to do with what
lenses you use. The MF lenses have for many years used crop factor sensors,
and
only now recently have sensors started to catch up with the "smallest"
version
of the medium format


dpreview is correct.

full frame refers to a 35mm full frame. end of story.

the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced
a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to
differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has
carried into the digital age.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Olympus_Pen
The original Pen was introduced in 1959. It was designed by Maitani
Yoshihisa[1], and was the first half-frame camera produced in Japan.
It was one of the smallest cameras to use 35mm film in regular 135
cassettes. It was thought to be as portable as a pen; thus the name.
The idea was to be much copied by other Japanese makers.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Half-frame
What is called the half-frame format is usually the 18x24mm format on
regular 35mm film. It is the normal exposure format on 35mm movie
cameras. For still cameras using 35mm film, the usual format is
24x36mm, so still cameras taking 18x24mm exposures are called
half-frame cameras.

medium format has never used the term full-frame because there are
multiple sizes in common use. it's always been the actual frame size,
such as 6x7, 6x6 or 6x4.5, sometimes included in the name of the
camera, e.g., pentax 6x7.

the 4/3rds groupies wanted to call their cameras 'full frame' because
they claimed their lenses were designed for the entire frame. if that
was true then every camera is full frame, so clearly that's wrong.

there can only be one meaning of the term full frame, which is 24x36mm,
the same as 35mm film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR
The term Full Frame is used by D-SLR users as a short-hand for an
image sensor which is the same size as 35mm format (36?24*mm) film
.[1][2] Historically, 35*mm was considered a small film format
compared with medium format, large format and even larger. This is in
contrast to cameras with smaller sensors (for instance, those with a
size equivalent to APS-C-size film), much smaller than a full 35*mm
frame. Currently, the majority of digital cameras, both compact and
SLR models, use a smaller-than-35*mm frame, as it is easier and
cheaper to manufacture imaging sensors at a smaller size.
Historically, the earliest digital SLR models, such as the Nikon NASA
F4 or Kodak DCS 100, also used a smaller sensor. Kodak states that
35mm film has the equivalent of 6K resolution according to a Senior
Vice President of IMAX.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format
The image sensor format of a digital camera determines the angle of
view of a particular lens when used with a particular camera. In
particular, image sensors in digital SLR cameras tend to be smaller
than the 24*mm*?*36*mm image area of full-frame 35*mm cameras, and
therefore lead to a narrower angle of view.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/photogr...as-deliver-imp
ressive-image-quality-but-heres-why-you-might-not-need-it/
First, letıs talk about what full-frame entails. Full-frame digital
cameras*use a sensor thatıs equivalent in size to 35mm film (36 x
24mm), and is the largest you can buy without moving up to truly
professional (and expensive) gear like medium format.

as far as the lenses go, they only need to have an image circle that
covers the frame size. ideally it covers more than just the diagonal
because aberrations are highest at the edges, but it will still work
(some dx lenses cover full frame at some focal lengths).

that's why a standard 35mm lens works with the smaller crop sensors and
also why a medium format lens can be used on a full frame or crop frame
camera, with an appropriate adapter.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/611...ch-reducer-to-
mount-medium-format-lenses-on-full-frame-cameras
Chinese lens manufacturer Kipon has announced that next year it will
make available a reducing adapter thatıs designed to allow medium
format lenses to fit on full frame cameras. The adapter will have a
magnification factor of 0.7x which it says will both widen the
effective focal length of the lens in use and widen its effective
aperture.*
  #4  
Old January 4th 16, 07:56 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
android
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,854
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article ,
nospam wrote:

dpreview is correct.

full frame refers to a 35mm full frame. end of story.

the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced
a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to
differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has
carried into the digital age.


Half frame (or APS-C) was the standard film format for movies in the
first half of the 20th century. Engineer Barnac of Ernst Leitz AG
constructed a camera for twice that format using the same film. It was
an instant hit among cinematographers that could use spare bulk.
--
teleportation kills
  #5  
Old January 4th 16, 09:32 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mort[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 396
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

nospam wrote:
the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced
a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to
differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has
carried into the digital age.



Hi,

The Germans made a half frame camera, called the Robot, if my memory
serves me correctly, before W.W.II. During the war, among other uses,
they were placed in the wings of German airplanes for rapid sequence
pix. They had a spring-wound motor for the sequence shots.

Mort Linder
  #6  
Old January 4th 16, 10:04 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
android
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,854
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article , Mort
wrote:

nospam wrote:
the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced
a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to
differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has
carried into the digital age.



Hi,

The Germans made a half frame camera, called the Robot, if my memory
serves me correctly, before W.W.II. During the war, among other uses,
they were placed in the wings of German airplanes for rapid sequence
pix. They had a spring-wound motor for the sequence shots.

Mort Linder


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_%28camera%29

Canon made the Honeywell Dial on the same concept. An uncle of mine had
one. Canon sold stuff under store brands once upon a time...

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Canon_Dial_35

Anyways, the dial lives on style wise in Ixus line of digital point and
shoots.

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_digital_ixus_50_unveiled/

I got one of those.:-)
--
teleportation kills
  #7  
Old January 4th 16, 11:18 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,467
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article , nospam wrote:

the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus
introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago


Of course not, using a smaller part of the 135-film has been done far longer.
The Robot camera shot 24x24mm on 135-film as well as 18x24mm and that was 85
years ago. Back then, the 36x24 format was called the "Leica" format, and
24x18 was the normal cine format, used for film cameras.

and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras.
the terminology has carried into the digital age.


Difference is, of course, that the term "full frame" these days means a
camera without a crop factor. And crop factor, as we know, is only a variable
when it comes to the lens.

medium format has never used the term full-frame because there are
multiple sizes in common use. it's always been the actual frame
size, such as 6x7, 6x6 or 6x4.5, sometimes included in the name of
the camera, e.g., pentax 6x7.


Ironic that you should make this claim in a thread about a news article about
a medium format sensor manufacturer that is using the term "full frame" to
designate a sensor that is as close as the smallest version of medium format
as has been done.

https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/XF100MP.aspx

"We were the first to offer Full Frame Medium Format CCD systems
and now we?re proud to be the first to offer a Full Frame Medium
Format CMOS solution."

there can only be one meaning of the term full frame, which is
24x36mm, the same as 35mm film.


36x24mm, what was first called the Leica format, was called both "full frame"
and "double frame" in the really early days, but 135-film has been used in
"fuller" frames than that. There were 58x24mm panoramic cameras that used far
more of the film.

It is true, however, that the 18x24mm format was generally called "half
frame" because it was half the frame of the most widely used format; 36x24mm,
but there wasn't people going around saying they're shooting "full frame"
with their Nikon F3, because that would be the normal film size, so no need
for a distinction, the distinction was only needed when cameras used a
smaller (or larger) film size on 135-film.

Contrast with digital cameras, that came about in an era where just about
everyone shot with 135-film in the normal 36x24mm size, but their sensors
weren't "full frame", so again the distinction was important, as was the crop
factor since you were using your normal Nikon and Canon lenses with your
digital sensor but not getting the same result.

that's why a standard 35mm lens works with the smaller crop sensors
and also why a medium format lens can be used on a full frame or
crop frame camera, with an appropriate adapter.


Correct. And with digital medium format cameras up until a few years ago, the
same crop factor math was applicable when using an 80mm medium format lens on
a digital back with a smaller-than-645 sensor.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/611...ch-reducer-to-
mount-medium-format-lenses-on-full-frame-cameras Chinese lens
manufacturer Kipon has announced that next year it will make
available a reducing adapter thatıs designed to allow medium
format lenses to fit on full frame cameras. The adapter will have a
magnification factor of 0.7x which it says will both widen the
effective focal length of the lens in use and widen its effective
aperture.*


Yes, adapters such as these are called "speed boosters" and exists for most
of the crop cameras out there. Hadn't heard of such a solution for MF lenses
on 35mm cameras though

--
Sandman
  #8  
Old January 5th 16, 04:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article ,
Sandman wrote:

the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus
introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago


Of course not, using a smaller part of the 135-film has been done far longer.
The Robot camera shot 24x24mm on 135-film as well as 18x24mm and that was 85
years ago. Back then, the 36x24 format was called the "Leica" format, and
24x18 was the normal cine format, used for film cameras.


even better.

the point is that full frame refers to 35mm and has for a very long
time.

and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras.
the terminology has carried into the digital age.


Difference is, of course, that the term "full frame" these days means a
camera without a crop factor.


if that were true, then the term 'full frame' is meaningless.

an iphone 6 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full frame
camera.

a samsung galaxy s6 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full
frame camera.

a nikon coolpix 990 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full
frame camera.

a canon g12 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full frame
camera.

the reality is that full frame means 35mm size format and that's what
people understand the term to mean.

And crop factor, as we know, is only a variable
when it comes to the lens.


nope. it's the camera/sensor.

a nikon d800 can choose from full frame or 1.5x from a menu. similarly,
a nikon d7100 can choose from dx or 1.3x. the lens does not change.

lenses have image circles that must cover at least the size of the
frame being used. the largest frame size that fits into that image
circle is what the lens is marketed as. a lens that covers a larger
circle will work, as many slr users know.

and crop factor isn't really an accurate term anyway. nothing is being
cropped. it's just a number to normalize the focal lengths to a 35mm
(full frame) equivalent because that's what people have come to
understand.

medium format has never used the term full-frame because there are
multiple sizes in common use. it's always been the actual frame
size, such as 6x7, 6x6 or 6x4.5, sometimes included in the name of
the camera, e.g., pentax 6x7.


Ironic that you should make this claim in a thread about a news article about
a medium format sensor manufacturer that is using the term "full frame" to
designate a sensor that is as close as the smallest version of medium format
as has been done.

https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/XF100MP.aspx

"We were the first to offer Full Frame Medium Format CCD systems
and now we?re proud to be the first to offer a Full Frame Medium
Format CMOS solution."


note that they're not saying 'full frame', but rather 'full frame
medium format'. the difference is very important.

they *have* to say 'full frame medium format' because 'full frame'
means 35mm.

however, what they say in marketing materials isn't the defining
factor. it's what common usage is, and as i said (and previously
linked), common usage is that full frame is 35mm size.
  #9  
Old January 5th 16, 04:01 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_6_]
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Posts: 4,254
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

On 1/4/2016 10:30 PM, nospam wrote:
snip


however, what they say in marketing materials isn't the defining
factor. it's what common usage is, and as i said (and previously
linked), common usage is that full frame is 35mm size.


That statement is the opposite of what you said when you were arguing
that a DSLR is the same as an SLR.
I guess when I say you'll either deny that, or try to wriggle out, it
will be "projection."

--
PeterN
  #10  
Old January 5th 16, 04:08 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it

In article , PeterN
wrote:

however, what they say in marketing materials isn't the defining
factor. it's what common usage is, and as i said (and previously
linked), common usage is that full frame is 35mm size.


That statement is the opposite of what you said when you were arguing
that a DSLR is the same as an SLR.


nope

I guess when I say you'll either deny that, or try to wriggle out, it
will be "projection."


wrong.
 




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