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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article , RichA
wrote: You read some of the 300-odd comments and it's pretty clear a lot of people have no CLUE what medium format is, what it is for. "It's twice the price of my car!" says one lunkhead. A Nikon D810 and lens costs twice as much as a 60" 4K TV. What has one got to do with the other? http://www.dpreview.com/news/0998933...-100mp-medium- format-camera-co-developed-with-sony#comments DPreview seems equally perplexed: "Despite being described as 'full frame' the sensor is 53.7 x 40.4mm, making it two and a half times larger than the 135 format to which the term is most often applied" Eh, a "full frame" MF sensor would be 56x41.5 mm, making this one of the very few actual full frame (or at least close enough to actually be called full frame) in existence. Hasselblad's biggest sensor is 53.7 x 40.2 mm so the difference isn't that huge. I have no problem calling either "full frame". "Full frame" has nothing to do with the 135 format, it has to do with what lenses you use. The MF lenses have for many years used crop factor sensors, and only now recently have sensors started to catch up with the "smallest" version of the medium format 6x4.5 was the most common format, another common was 6x7, which is a frame of 56x67 mm, which obviously is huge, and these sensors are far from "full frame" in comparison. I saw nothing strange about the comments - most seemed to know exactly what MF was, and made some jokes about it, that's all. -- Sandman |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
On 4 Jan 2016 17:42:18 GMT, Sandman wrote:
In article , RichA wrote: You read some of the 300-odd comments and it's pretty clear a lot of people have no CLUE what medium format is, what it is for. "It's twice the price of my car!" says one lunkhead. A Nikon D810 and lens costs twice as much as a 60" 4K TV. What has one got to do with the other? http://www.dpreview.com/news/0998933...-100mp-medium- format-camera-co-developed-with-sony#comments DPreview seems equally perplexed: "Despite being described as 'full frame' the sensor is 53.7 x 40.4mm, making it two and a half times larger than the 135 format to which the term is most often applied" Eh, a "full frame" MF sensor would be 56x41.5 mm, making this one of the very few actual full frame (or at least close enough to actually be called full frame) in existence. Hasselblad's biggest sensor is 53.7 x 40.2 mm so the difference isn't that huge. I have no problem calling either "full frame". "Full frame" has nothing to do with the 135 format, it has to do with what lenses you use. The MF lenses have for many years used crop factor sensors, and only now recently have sensors started to catch up with the "smallest" version of the medium format 6x4.5 was the most common format, another common was 6x7, which is a frame of 56x67 mm, which obviously is huge, and these sensors are far from "full frame" in comparison. I saw nothing strange about the comments - most seemed to know exactly what MF was, and made some jokes about it, that's all. I read that, and, like you, I expected better from DP Review. It's a "645" format camera, and that sensor is, essentially, full frame for that format. Clearly some neophytes working there. |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article ,
Sandman wrote: You read some of the 300-odd comments and it's pretty clear a lot of people have no CLUE what medium format is, what it is for. "It's twice the price of my car!" says one lunkhead. A Nikon D810 and lens costs twice as much as a 60" 4K TV. What has one got to do with the other? http://www.dpreview.com/news/0998933...-100mp-medium- format-camera-co-developed-with-sony#comments DPreview seems equally perplexed: "Despite being described as 'full frame' the sensor is 53.7 x 40.4mm, making it two and a half times larger than the 135 format to which the term is most often applied" Eh, a "full frame" MF sensor would be 56x41.5 mm, making this one of the very few actual full frame (or at least close enough to actually be called full frame) in existence. Hasselblad's biggest sensor is 53.7 x 40.2 mm so the difference isn't that huge. I have no problem calling either "full frame". "Full frame" has nothing to do with the 135 format, it has to do with what lenses you use. The MF lenses have for many years used crop factor sensors, and only now recently have sensors started to catch up with the "smallest" version of the medium format dpreview is correct. full frame refers to a 35mm full frame. end of story. the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has carried into the digital age. http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Olympus_Pen The original Pen was introduced in 1959. It was designed by Maitani Yoshihisa[1], and was the first half-frame camera produced in Japan. It was one of the smallest cameras to use 35mm film in regular 135 cassettes. It was thought to be as portable as a pen; thus the name. The idea was to be much copied by other Japanese makers. http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Half-frame What is called the half-frame format is usually the 18x24mm format on regular 35mm film. It is the normal exposure format on 35mm movie cameras. For still cameras using 35mm film, the usual format is 24x36mm, so still cameras taking 18x24mm exposures are called half-frame cameras. medium format has never used the term full-frame because there are multiple sizes in common use. it's always been the actual frame size, such as 6x7, 6x6 or 6x4.5, sometimes included in the name of the camera, e.g., pentax 6x7. the 4/3rds groupies wanted to call their cameras 'full frame' because they claimed their lenses were designed for the entire frame. if that was true then every camera is full frame, so clearly that's wrong. there can only be one meaning of the term full frame, which is 24x36mm, the same as 35mm film. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR The term Full Frame is used by D-SLR users as a short-hand for an image sensor which is the same size as 35mm format (36?24*mm) film .[1][2] Historically, 35*mm was considered a small film format compared with medium format, large format and even larger. This is in contrast to cameras with smaller sensors (for instance, those with a size equivalent to APS-C-size film), much smaller than a full 35*mm frame. Currently, the majority of digital cameras, both compact and SLR models, use a smaller-than-35*mm frame, as it is easier and cheaper to manufacture imaging sensors at a smaller size. Historically, the earliest digital SLR models, such as the Nikon NASA F4 or Kodak DCS 100, also used a smaller sensor. Kodak states that 35mm film has the equivalent of 6K resolution according to a Senior Vice President of IMAX.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format The image sensor format of a digital camera determines the angle of view of a particular lens when used with a particular camera. In particular, image sensors in digital SLR cameras tend to be smaller than the 24*mm*?*36*mm image area of full-frame 35*mm cameras, and therefore lead to a narrower angle of view. http://www.digitaltrends.com/photogr...as-deliver-imp ressive-image-quality-but-heres-why-you-might-not-need-it/ First, letıs talk about what full-frame entails. Full-frame digital cameras*use a sensor thatıs equivalent in size to 35mm film (36 x 24mm), and is the largest you can buy without moving up to truly professional (and expensive) gear like medium format. as far as the lenses go, they only need to have an image circle that covers the frame size. ideally it covers more than just the diagonal because aberrations are highest at the edges, but it will still work (some dx lenses cover full frame at some focal lengths). that's why a standard 35mm lens works with the smaller crop sensors and also why a medium format lens can be used on a full frame or crop frame camera, with an appropriate adapter. http://www.dpreview.com/articles/611...ch-reducer-to- mount-medium-format-lenses-on-full-frame-cameras Chinese lens manufacturer Kipon has announced that next year it will make available a reducing adapter thatıs designed to allow medium format lenses to fit on full frame cameras. The adapter will have a magnification factor of 0.7x which it says will both widen the effective focal length of the lens in use and widen its effective aperture.* |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article ,
nospam wrote: dpreview is correct. full frame refers to a 35mm full frame. end of story. the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has carried into the digital age. Half frame (or APS-C) was the standard film format for movies in the first half of the 20th century. Engineer Barnac of Ernst Leitz AG constructed a camera for twice that format using the same film. It was an instant hit among cinematographers that could use spare bulk. -- teleportation kills |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
nospam wrote:
the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has carried into the digital age. Hi, The Germans made a half frame camera, called the Robot, if my memory serves me correctly, before W.W.II. During the war, among other uses, they were placed in the wings of German airplanes for rapid sequence pix. They had a spring-wound motor for the sequence shots. Mort Linder |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article , Mort
wrote: nospam wrote: the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has carried into the digital age. Hi, The Germans made a half frame camera, called the Robot, if my memory serves me correctly, before W.W.II. During the war, among other uses, they were placed in the wings of German airplanes for rapid sequence pix. They had a spring-wound motor for the sequence shots. Mort Linder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_%28camera%29 Canon made the Honeywell Dial on the same concept. An uncle of mine had one. Canon sold stuff under store brands once upon a time... http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Canon_Dial_35 Anyways, the dial lives on style wise in Ixus line of digital point and shoots. http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_digital_ixus_50_unveiled/ I got one of those.:-) -- teleportation kills |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article , nospam wrote:
the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago Of course not, using a smaller part of the 135-film has been done far longer. The Robot camera shot 24x24mm on 135-film as well as 18x24mm and that was 85 years ago. Back then, the 36x24 format was called the "Leica" format, and 24x18 was the normal cine format, used for film cameras. and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has carried into the digital age. Difference is, of course, that the term "full frame" these days means a camera without a crop factor. And crop factor, as we know, is only a variable when it comes to the lens. medium format has never used the term full-frame because there are multiple sizes in common use. it's always been the actual frame size, such as 6x7, 6x6 or 6x4.5, sometimes included in the name of the camera, e.g., pentax 6x7. Ironic that you should make this claim in a thread about a news article about a medium format sensor manufacturer that is using the term "full frame" to designate a sensor that is as close as the smallest version of medium format as has been done. https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/XF100MP.aspx "We were the first to offer Full Frame Medium Format CCD systems and now we?re proud to be the first to offer a Full Frame Medium Format CMOS solution." there can only be one meaning of the term full frame, which is 24x36mm, the same as 35mm film. 36x24mm, what was first called the Leica format, was called both "full frame" and "double frame" in the really early days, but 135-film has been used in "fuller" frames than that. There were 58x24mm panoramic cameras that used far more of the film. It is true, however, that the 18x24mm format was generally called "half frame" because it was half the frame of the most widely used format; 36x24mm, but there wasn't people going around saying they're shooting "full frame" with their Nikon F3, because that would be the normal film size, so no need for a distinction, the distinction was only needed when cameras used a smaller (or larger) film size on 135-film. Contrast with digital cameras, that came about in an era where just about everyone shot with 135-film in the normal 36x24mm size, but their sensors weren't "full frame", so again the distinction was important, as was the crop factor since you were using your normal Nikon and Canon lenses with your digital sensor but not getting the same result. that's why a standard 35mm lens works with the smaller crop sensors and also why a medium format lens can be used on a full frame or crop frame camera, with an appropriate adapter. Correct. And with digital medium format cameras up until a few years ago, the same crop factor math was applicable when using an 80mm medium format lens on a digital back with a smaller-than-645 sensor. http://www.dpreview.com/articles/611...ch-reducer-to- mount-medium-format-lenses-on-full-frame-cameras Chinese lens manufacturer Kipon has announced that next year it will make available a reducing adapter thatıs designed to allow medium format lenses to fit on full frame cameras. The adapter will have a magnification factor of 0.7x which it says will both widen the effective focal length of the lens in use and widen its effective aperture.* Yes, adapters such as these are called "speed boosters" and exists for most of the crop cameras out there. Hadn't heard of such a solution for MF lenses on 35mm cameras though -- Sandman |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article ,
Sandman wrote: the terms half-frame and full-frame came to be when olympus introduced a half-frame film camera over 50 years ago Of course not, using a smaller part of the 135-film has been done far longer. The Robot camera shot 24x24mm on 135-film as well as 18x24mm and that was 85 years ago. Back then, the 36x24 format was called the "Leica" format, and 24x18 was the normal cine format, used for film cameras. even better. the point is that full frame refers to 35mm and has for a very long time. and there was a need to differentiate it from standard 35mm cameras. the terminology has carried into the digital age. Difference is, of course, that the term "full frame" these days means a camera without a crop factor. if that were true, then the term 'full frame' is meaningless. an iphone 6 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full frame camera. a samsung galaxy s6 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full frame camera. a nikon coolpix 990 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full frame camera. a canon g12 camera doesn't have a crop factor, making it a full frame camera. the reality is that full frame means 35mm size format and that's what people understand the term to mean. And crop factor, as we know, is only a variable when it comes to the lens. nope. it's the camera/sensor. a nikon d800 can choose from full frame or 1.5x from a menu. similarly, a nikon d7100 can choose from dx or 1.3x. the lens does not change. lenses have image circles that must cover at least the size of the frame being used. the largest frame size that fits into that image circle is what the lens is marketed as. a lens that covers a larger circle will work, as many slr users know. and crop factor isn't really an accurate term anyway. nothing is being cropped. it's just a number to normalize the focal lengths to a 35mm (full frame) equivalent because that's what people have come to understand. medium format has never used the term full-frame because there are multiple sizes in common use. it's always been the actual frame size, such as 6x7, 6x6 or 6x4.5, sometimes included in the name of the camera, e.g., pentax 6x7. Ironic that you should make this claim in a thread about a news article about a medium format sensor manufacturer that is using the term "full frame" to designate a sensor that is as close as the smallest version of medium format as has been done. https://www.phaseone.com/en/Products/Camera-Systems/XF100MP.aspx "We were the first to offer Full Frame Medium Format CCD systems and now we?re proud to be the first to offer a Full Frame Medium Format CMOS solution." note that they're not saying 'full frame', but rather 'full frame medium format'. the difference is very important. they *have* to say 'full frame medium format' because 'full frame' means 35mm. however, what they say in marketing materials isn't the defining factor. it's what common usage is, and as i said (and previously linked), common usage is that full frame is 35mm size. |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
On 1/4/2016 10:30 PM, nospam wrote:
snip however, what they say in marketing materials isn't the defining factor. it's what common usage is, and as i said (and previously linked), common usage is that full frame is 35mm size. That statement is the opposite of what you said when you were arguing that a DSLR is the same as an SLR. I guess when I say you'll either deny that, or try to wriggle out, it will be "projection." -- PeterN |
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Phase launches 100mp med. format camera, morons comment on it
In article , PeterN
wrote: however, what they say in marketing materials isn't the defining factor. it's what common usage is, and as i said (and previously linked), common usage is that full frame is 35mm size. That statement is the opposite of what you said when you were arguing that a DSLR is the same as an SLR. nope I guess when I say you'll either deny that, or try to wriggle out, it will be "projection." wrong. |
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