Density Streaks on Film

Hello, I asked this question on pure-silver board but did not catch a lot of
attention. My apologies to those who get the message twice because of
crossposting.
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Hi,

I see denser parts in my 35 mm film. These denser parts are in forms of
streaks running vertically when I lay the film strip on a light box.
Actually, they are very faint but becomes visible in prints. They are more
visible if there is happened to be a uniform back ground (like a little
darkened sky). I made a research on the Internet a while ago and suspect
that these streaks have something to do with the flow (hydrodynamics) of
developer through sprocket holes of the film. I might be in error.

I have a current sample frame and would like to share it with you but am not
able to put it on a web page. It is Tri-X and developed in T-Max 1+4. I
agitate in a small Paterson tank. I combine two agitating methods in an
effort to stop this streaking problem (appearently, I failed). I first
agitate by rotating the little stick through the middle point of the
development time and then continue agitating by inverting the tank. This way
I hoped to get more even development. I figured inverting the tank causes a
lot of flow energy through the sprocket holes, and it is better to use it
after film is developed to a certain point and the developer is somewhat
exhausted. I thought this method helped as I did not have the streaks for a
while but now streaks strike back, not as dense but close and visible.

I appreciate every bit of help a lot. Thank you.

Alparslan

Alparslan wrote:
I see denser parts in my 35 mm film. These denser parts are in forms of
streaks running vertically when I lay the film strip on a light box.

So if you have a negative frame and you look it in landscape
orientation, are the streaks vertical? How wide they are, how many of
them there are and are they positioned evenly? Are they allways starting
at a sprocket hole?

I have a current sample frame and would like to share it with you but am not
able to put it on a web page. It is Tri-X and developed in T-Max 1+4. I
agitate in a small Paterson tank.

How do you agitate: how often, how much each time and how do you
precisely invert the tank? Do you presoak? How long is the total
development time?

And forget the stick: it just causes streaks (horizontal streaks along
the whole roll).

If you answer the above questions it will be easier for the other
readers to answer. Every bit of information helps.

Severi Salminen

"Severi Salminen" wrote in message

So if you have a negative frame and you look it in landscape
orientation, are the streaks vertical? How wide they are, how many of
them there are and are they positioned evenly? Are they allways starting
at a sprocket hole?


Thank you for letting me to be more specific. Yes, the streaks are vertical
in landscape orientation. They are not visible under 6X loupe. They are only
visible in print (the darker the more) and in scans when I play with the
levels towards the contrasty and darker side. I think they are about 2 mms
in width. I have seen frames with four or so of them and I have seen frames
with up to seven of them. There would be unaffected frames as well as
affected ones in the same roll. I am not sure; the ones I think not affected
might be affected so subtly that I can not spot with the mentioned methods.
They are not positioned evenly and even if they started at the sprocket
holes I would not know as the perforation part never gets exposed thus,
unaffected.


How do you agitate: how often, how much each time and how do you
precisely invert the tank? Do you presoak? How long is the total
development time?

After I encountered this problem I changed my agitation method (but
apparently it did not help much). I now use the rod that comes with the
Paterson tank until the middle point of the development and than I go by
inverting the tank. As I mentioned earlier, I thought inverting caused a lot
of high energy flow through the reel and sprocket holes and I wanted to
invert the tank towards the end of the development in hopes that the
exhausting developer will not cause any streaks even though the existence of
high energy hydrodynamics created by inverting the tank (I think).

When I use the rod, I turn it towards one direction a few times and then
backwards a few times. This way each agitation period takes more than 15
seconds. When I agitate by inverting the tank, I invert the tank and let the
all developer flow to the bottom (the cap) and than re-invert it back to its
original position. This may take a bit longer than 5 seconds close to 10
seconds. I then rotate the tank in its own axis for the following agitation
and so on.

As I write this, I recall what I have gathered about the issue on the
Internet. It seems that my agitation periods might be too long and I should
keep them under 5 seconds. I am looking forward to hearing your comments on
the issue and will send you a sample frame. I would also like to send the
sample frame to someone who can put it on a WEB page and provide us with a
link here. Regards,

Alparslan

"Alparslan" wrote in message ...
"Severi Salminen" wrote in message

So if you have a negative frame and you look it in landscape
orientation, are the streaks vertical? How wide they are, how many of
them there are and are they positioned evenly? Are they allways starting
at a sprocket hole?


Thank you for letting me to be more specific. Yes, the streaks are vertical
in landscape orientation. They are not visible under 6X loupe. They are only
visible in print (the darker the more) and in scans when I play with the
levels towards the contrasty and darker side. I think they are about 2 mms
in width. I have seen frames with four or so of them and I have seen frames
with up to seven of them. There would be unaffected frames as well as
affected ones in the same roll. I am not sure; the ones I think not affected
might be affected so subtly that I can not spot with the mentioned methods.
They are not positioned evenly and even if they started at the sprocket
holes I would not know as the perforation part never gets exposed thus,
unaffected.


How do you agitate: how often, how much each time and how do you
precisely invert the tank? Do you presoak? How long is the total
development time?

After I encountered this problem I changed my agitation method (but
apparently it did not help much). I now use the rod that comes with the
Paterson tank until the middle point of the development and than I go by
inverting the tank. As I mentioned earlier, I thought inverting caused a lot
of high energy flow through the reel and sprocket holes and I wanted to
invert the tank towards the end of the development in hopes that the
exhausting developer will not cause any streaks even though the existence of
high energy hydrodynamics created by inverting the tank (I think).

When I use the rod, I turn it towards one direction a few times and then
backwards a few times. This way each agitation period takes more than 15
seconds. When I agitate by inverting the tank, I invert the tank and let the
all developer flow to the bottom (the cap) and than re-invert it back to its
original position. This may take a bit longer than 5 seconds close to 10
seconds. I then rotate the tank in its own axis for the following agitation
and so on.

As I write this, I recall what I have gathered about the issue on the
Internet. It seems that my agitation periods might be too long and I should
keep them under 5 seconds. I am looking forward to hearing your comments on
the issue and will send you a sample frame. I would also like to send the
sample frame to someone who can put it on a WEB page and provide us with a
link here. Regards,

Alparslan


Sounds like surge from the sprockets and will be hard to see under a
loupe. To fix this you can agitate this way:
after immersing the film into the developer, agitate for the first 30
seconds. stop, then for 5 seconds every 25 seconds, using for the
most part your current inversion style. However, use this after every
inversion cycle. ROLL the film tank, on its stde, in your sink for
the 5 second agitation sequence. So it goes like this:
30 sec. agitation, wait for 25 seconds, inversion agitation for 5
seconds, wait for 25 seconds, roll tank for 5 seconds (and of course
set back up on its end when finished), wait 25 seconds, inversion
agitation for 5 seconds, wait for 25 seconds, roll agitation for 5
seconds (setting back on its end)...and so on. This gets the
developer/film to go horizontally, and thus not thru the sprockets,
and will eliminate the surge.
BTW, I'd lose the TMX developer and use Xtol.

Good luck.

Alexis

www.alexisneel.com

"Alparslan" wrote in message
...
I see denser parts in my 35 mm film. These denser parts are in forms of
streaks running vertically when I lay the film strip on a light box.
Actually, they are very faint but becomes visible in prints. They are more
visible if there is happened to be a uniform back ground (like a little
darkened sky). I made a research on the Internet a while ago and suspect
that these streaks have something to do with the flow (hydrodynamics) of
developer through sprocket holes of the film. I might be in error.

I have a current sample frame and would like to share it with you but am
not
able to put it on a web page. It is Tri-X and developed in T-Max 1+4. I
agitate in a small Paterson tank. I combine two agitating methods in an
effort to stop this streaking problem (appearently, I failed). I first
agitate by rotating the little stick through the middle point of the
development time and then continue agitating by inverting the tank. This
way
I hoped to get more even development. I figured inverting the tank causes
a
lot of flow energy through the sprocket holes, and it is better to use it
after film is developed to a certain point and the developer is somewhat
exhausted. I thought this method helped as I did not have the streaks for
a
while but now streaks strike back, not as dense but close and visible.

I appreciate every bit of help a lot. Thank you.

Alparslan

Your problem is most likely too much agitation and may be in an improper
technique. I have experienced your problem at least once in some 55 years of
tank development and that was when I over agitated (some say I always over
agitate, but that is a different issue :-) ).

The method I have always found successful with 35mm Tri-X, PXP, HP5, Delta
400, TMX, TMY (not my favorite), and FP4 yesterday, is to invert the tank
three times in succession (not the "cocktail shaker" method), and then
letting the whole thing remain quiescent, in a water bath, for one whole
minute then repeat. Please note this is with D76, HC110b, and other
developers in both s. steel (preferred) and plastic tanks. I have not had
"good" success with your Tmax. My theory is that agitation is only
necessary to remove reaction products from the emulsion and replace it with
fresh reactants. Any more agitation than necessary for this replacement
causes the problems you are observing.

Truly, dr bob.

"Alparslan" wrote in message ...


DO NOT use the rod.

Agitate EXACTLY as I describe he

1. Fill the tank with plain water at the same temperature as the
developer, and lett sit for 5 minutes or so.

2. Empty the tank and fill with developer almost to the top of the
tank. Leave a little room in the neck of the lid.

3. Begin inverting the tank, along with with a twisting action.
Agitate this way for 20 seconds, then drop the tank from a height of 2
inches onto a double thickness of bath towel. This will cushion the
tank against breakage.

4. At the beginning of each minute, invert the tank with rotation
TWICE, and no more. Rotate twice in immediate succesion, then drop the
tank from a height of 2 inches as before described.

5. About 30-45 seconds before the time is due to expire, begin
emptying the tank and fill with stop bath, then fix and wash.

You WILL NOT have any streaks.

"Alparslan" wrote in message ...
Hello, I asked this question on pure-silver board but did not catch a lot of
attention. My apologies to those who get the message twice because of
crossposting.


In agreement with bob, most beginners over-agitate by a considerable margin.

(Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message . com...
"Alparslan" wrote in message ...


DO NOT use the rod.

Agitate EXACTLY as I describe he

1. Fill the tank with plain water at the same temperature as the
developer, and lett sit for 5 minutes or so.

2. Empty the tank and fill with developer almost to the top of the
tank. Leave a little room in the neck of the lid.

3. Begin inverting the tank, along with with a twisting action.
Agitate this way for 20 seconds, then drop the tank from a height of 2
inches onto a double thickness of bath towel. This will cushion the
tank against breakage.

4. At the beginning of each minute, invert the tank with rotation
TWICE, and no more. Rotate twice in immediate succesion, then drop the
tank from a height of 2 inches as before described.

5. About 30-45 seconds before the time is due to expire, begin
emptying the tank and fill with stop bath, then fix and wash.

You WILL NOT have any streaks.

If you do this method, its true, you won't have any streaks, because
you forgot to put the film in the tank, following his directions
EXACTLY, as he said to do! LOL!!!

and be sure to have your ruler handy to get that 2" EXACTLY!

You kill me Michael!

LOL!


And to Dr.Bob, your theory is correct, but only in part. While true
in and of itself that agitation "is necessary to remove reaction
products from the emulsion and replace it with fresh reactants",
agitation also controls contrast, and to an extent, density, but
contrast mostly. You can get rid of the surge/density by the method I
described above.

Alexis

www.alexisneel.com

Michael Scarpitti wrote:

DO NOT use the rod.

I agree, I have also gotten bad results when trying the rod.

Agitate EXACTLY as I describe he

No, agitate exactly the way you want. People are here only giving other
options to try. Some are good advice, some are bad. Pick the best

1. Fill the tank with plain water at the same temperature as the
developer, and lett sit for 5 minutes or so.

Pre-soaking is not recommended (for 35mm and 120) by major film
manufacturers like Kodak and Ilford. This is mainly because of anti
foaming coatings.

2. Empty the tank and fill with developer almost to the top of the
tank. Leave a little room in the neck of the lid.

If you don't fill it to the top, the air itself will act as a "stirrer"
and less shaking is needed when agitating. But both methods work
probably decently.

3. Begin inverting the tank, along with with a twisting action.
Agitate this way for 20 seconds, then drop the tank from a height of 2
inches onto a double thickness of bath towel. This will cushion the
tank against breakage.

Bad advice. Dropping tanks is not a good way to handle your equipment -
even from 2". And anyone ever trying to remove bubbles from water in a
glass knows that the best way is to tap it gently to a _hard_ surface:
fast impulse is the key here. Towels make the impulse slow and bubbles
won't come off so easily.

4. At the beginning of each minute, invert the tank with rotation
TWICE, and no more. Rotate twice in immediate succesion, then drop the
tank from a height of 2 inches as before described.

Even one rotation will suffice if there is some air left inside. Usually
the wisest thing to do is to make things as simple as possible without
compromising the end result.

5. About 30-45 seconds before the time is due to expire, begin
emptying the tank and fill with stop bath, then fix and wash.

It doesn't matter at all where you start/stop the watch: when pouring
the developer in/out or after it is allready filled/empty. Just do
everything allways the same way and the results will be consistent.
Actually it is the easiest to start first the watch, then pour in,
develop, finally start the emptying when the time is up.

Severi

Alexis Neel wrote:
: "Alparslan" wrote in message ...
: "Severi Salminen" wrote in message
:
: So if you have a negative frame and you look it in landscape
: orientation, are the streaks vertical? How wide they are, how many of
: them there are and are they positioned evenly? Are they allways starting
: at a sprocket hole?
:
:
: Thank you for letting me to be more specific. Yes, the streaks are vertical
: in landscape orientation. They are not visible under 6X loupe. They are only
: visible in print (the darker the more) and in scans when I play with the
: levels towards the contrasty and darker side. I think they are about 2 mms
: in width. I have seen frames with four or so of them and I have seen frames
: with up to seven of them. There would be unaffected frames as well as
: affected ones in the same roll. I am not sure; the ones I think not affected
: might be affected so subtly that I can not spot with the mentioned methods.
: They are not positioned evenly and even if they started at the sprocket
: holes I would not know as the perforation part never gets exposed thus,
: unaffected.
:
:
: How do you agitate: how often, how much each time and how do you
: precisely invert the tank? Do you presoak? How long is the total
: development time?
:
: After I encountered this problem I changed my agitation method (but
: apparently it did not help much). I now use the rod that comes with the
: Paterson tank until the middle point of the development and than I go by
: inverting the tank. As I mentioned earlier, I thought inverting caused a lot
: of high energy flow through the reel and sprocket holes and I wanted to
: invert the tank towards the end of the development in hopes that the
: exhausting developer will not cause any streaks even though the existence of
: high energy hydrodynamics created by inverting the tank (I think).
:
: When I use the rod, I turn it towards one direction a few times and then
: backwards a few times. This way each agitation period takes more than 15
: seconds. When I agitate by inverting the tank, I invert the tank and let the
: all developer flow to the bottom (the cap) and than re-invert it back to its
: original position. This may take a bit longer than 5 seconds close to 10
: seconds. I then rotate the tank in its own axis for the following agitation
: and so on.
:
: As I write this, I recall what I have gathered about the issue on the
: Internet. It seems that my agitation periods might be too long and I should
: keep them under 5 seconds. I am looking forward to hearing your comments on
: the issue and will send you a sample frame. I would also like to send the
: sample frame to someone who can put it on a WEB page and provide us with a
: link here. Regards,
:
: Alparslan


: Sounds like surge from the sprockets and will be hard to see under a
: loupe. To fix this you can agitate this way:
: after immersing the film into the developer, agitate for the first 30
: seconds. stop, then for 5 seconds every 25 seconds, using for the
: most part your current inversion style. However, use this after every
: inversion cycle. ROLL the film tank, on its stde, in your sink for
: the 5 second agitation sequence. So it goes like this:
: 30 sec. agitation, wait for 25 seconds, inversion agitation for 5
: seconds, wait for 25 seconds, roll tank for 5 seconds (and of course
: set back up on its end when finished), wait 25 seconds, inversion
: agitation for 5 seconds, wait for 25 seconds, roll agitation for 5
: seconds (setting back on its end)...and so on. This gets the
: developer/film to go horizontally, and thus not thru the sprockets,
: and will eliminate the surge.
: BTW, I'd lose the TMX developer and use Xtol.

: Good luck.

Rolling the tank is a good idea. It would be important to roll the tank back
forth to break up flow currents in the tank. This is the reason processors
like Jobo automatically reverse the rotation of the tank during processing.

Before ditching the Tmax developer try it using a dilution of 1:9 at 75 degrees.
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