Battery Chargers

I just got a digital camera for Christmas (a Fujifilm FinePix A345) and
my dad (who knows nothing about any technology whatsoever) bought it
for me. The sales clerk apparently took advantage of that (luckily for
me) and he bought quiet a few accessories. One was a kit with a bad and
extra batteries and a charger. The batteries say:

"Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA"

The charger just says:

"RED LED: Battery is under quick charge.
GREEN LED: Standby or battery is fully charged."

I am new to digital photography so this may sound a little dumb, but
what's happening? When I put them in the charger it only charges for a
few minutes and then the LED is green. But the camera doesn't last very
long on that charge. Is this just doing a quick charge? And is there a
way for it/me to do a standard charge? I see the convenience of
charging it quickly but I don't mind waiting a while for long use when
I need it.

Thank you very much,
Kyle

P.S. I searched for similar problems but couldn't find it, so I am
sorry if this is a duplicate.

Kyle Evans wrote:
I just got a digital camera for Christmas (a Fujifilm FinePix A345)
and my dad (who knows nothing about any technology whatsoever) bought
it for me. The sales clerk apparently took advantage of that (luckily
for me) and he bought quiet a few accessories. One was a kit with a
bad and extra batteries and a charger. The batteries say:

"Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA"

The charger just says:

"RED LED: Battery is under quick charge.
GREEN LED: Standby or battery is fully charged."

I am new to digital photography so this may sound a little dumb, but
what's happening? When I put them in the charger it only charges for a
few minutes and then the LED is green. But the camera doesn't last
very long on that charge. Is this just doing a quick charge? And is
there a way for it/me to do a standard charge? I see the convenience
of charging it quickly but I don't mind waiting a while for long use
when I need it.

Thank you very much,
Kyle

P.S. I searched for similar problems but couldn't find it, so I am
sorry if this is a duplicate.

does above info says on batteries or on charger? What says on charger really
matters. Read what says on your charger.
Also write what capacity of your batteries. If above (standard charge 14 hrs
at 200 mA) seems too short for recent capacity batteries.
First, batteries must be empty before you put them into charger, or charger
will soon switch to green LED.
If does so after a few minutes indicates so...or charger is broken. Does
this same happens with both sets of batteries? Do batteries become hot? (i
mean hot as harldy to hold them )?

When charger switches to green (trickle charging), you can leave batteries
in this condition for days of even weeks. In this condition batteries will
slowly charge to their full charge and stay fully charged, but then again
this depends on type of your charger - if this is to be true, standby charge
current shouldn't be bigger than about 80 - 100 mA (say for 2300-2600 mAh
batteries) Also note that NiMH batteries loose their charge appr. 1 % per
day, so in one month of lying in a drawer they loose about 30% of charge.

--
Visit my web page at http://www.protoncek.com

On 27 Dec 2005 10:41:46 -0800, Kyle Evans wrote:

I just got a digital camera for Christmas (a Fujifilm FinePix A345) and
my dad (who knows nothing about any technology whatsoever) bought it
for me. The sales clerk apparently took advantage of that (luckily for
me) and he bought quiet a few accessories. One was a kit with a bad and
extra batteries and a charger. The batteries say:

"Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA"

The charger just says:

"RED LED: Battery is under quick charge.
GREEN LED: Standby or battery is fully charged."

It just so happened that a niece got a Fuji Finepix A360 as a
Christmas present from her parents. It was part of a special $130
"package" produced for Walmart that included in addition to the
standard pieces, an additional camera case, charger (sounds quite
like the one you got) and a pair of 2000 mah NiMH batteries. The
manual stated that the camera should get 100 shots from AA alkalines
and 200 shots from NiMH batteries. This is with the CIPA procedure
described in the manual, but basically it means that the LCD display
was kept turned on, and the flash was used at full power for 1/2 of
the shots, and the lens was fully zoomed for every shot, among other
things. I have reason to believe that these figures are accurate.
Check the back of the A345's manual to see what kind of battery life
the A345 is supposed to get. As it's slightly older than the A360 I
wouldn't be surprised if it was rated for a bit less (but not much
less) than the A360's 100/200 shots.


I am new to digital photography so this may sound a little dumb, but
what's happening? When I put them in the charger it only charges for a
few minutes and then the LED is green. But the camera doesn't last very
long on that charge. Is this just doing a quick charge? And is there a
way for it/me to do a standard charge? I see the convenience of
charging it quickly but I don't mind waiting a while for long use when
I need it.

It's impossible to tell how much of a charge NiMH batteries will
need for their first charge, but I've never seen any new ones that
didn't require almost a full charge the first time. From the
description on the batteries, they should also be 2000 mah NiMH
cells. Not great, but not bad. Supermarkets, drug and convenience
stores currently sell NiMH batteries ranging from about 1800mah to
2500mah. It's possible to find some slightly above or below this
range, but they're pretty rare.

When batteries and chargers are in good condition, if the
batteries only charge for a few minutes, then they were almost fully
charged to begin with. If the charger is good but the batteries
always charge this quickly, then at least one of the batteries is
probably very old or defective, possibly both. It's possible that
the batteries might be good but you have a defective charger, but
that's less likely. If I had your problem, I'd buy a 2 or 4 pack of
NiMH AA batteries, and if they take a good charge, just toss the
original batteries as they're probably bad, and it wouldn't be a
great loss. If even the new batteries won't charge properly, try to
get the original charger and batteries exchanged or returned for
credit or a refund and buy a better charger somewhere else. Also
consider that if the A345's manual indicates that it should be able
to get more than, say, 75 shots from a pair of alkaline batteries,
if the camera isn't used to take many hundreds of shots per year, it
may be more practical to forget about the advantage of NiMH
batteries (about double the number of shots) and stick with
alkalines, which don't have one of NiMH's big disadvantages,
relatively fast self-discharge. Suppose you have two identical
cameras, one using alkalines and the other NiMH batteries, and both
sets of batteries have been used so that the batteries are half
depleted. If you put both cameras in a drawer for several months
and then take them out, the ones with the alkaline batteries will
probably still have half of its charge remaining and can be used
immediately. The one with NiMH batteries will probably be dead and
will need to be recharged before the camera can be used. If the NiMH
batteries are *really* dead, you may also have to reset the
camera's clock/calendar as well. This kind of treatment can also
result in the early death of rechargeable batteries.

"SleeperMan" wrote in message
...
Kyle Evans wrote:
I just got a digital camera for Christmas (a Fujifilm FinePix A345)
and my dad (who knows nothing about any technology whatsoever) bought
it for me. The sales clerk apparently took advantage of that (luckily
for me) and he bought quiet a few accessories. One was a kit with a
bad and extra batteries and a charger. The batteries say:

"Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA"

The charger just says:

"RED LED: Battery is under quick charge.
GREEN LED: Standby or battery is fully charged."

I am new to digital photography so this may sound a little dumb, but
what's happening? When I put them in the charger it only charges for a
few minutes and then the LED is green. But the camera doesn't last
very long on that charge. Is this just doing a quick charge? And is
there a way for it/me to do a standard charge? I see the convenience
of charging it quickly but I don't mind waiting a while for long use
when I need it.

Thank you very much,
Kyle

P.S. I searched for similar problems but couldn't find it, so I am
sorry if this is a duplicate.

does above info says on batteries or on charger? What says on charger
really matters. Read what says on your charger.
Also write what capacity of your batteries. If above (standard charge 14
hrs at 200 mA) seems too short for recent capacity batteries.
First, batteries must be empty before you put them into charger, or
charger will soon switch to green LED.
If does so after a few minutes indicates so...or charger is broken. Does
this same happens with both sets of batteries? Do batteries become hot? (i
mean hot as harldy to hold them )?

When charger switches to green (trickle charging), you can leave batteries
in this condition for days of even weeks. In this condition batteries will
slowly charge to their full charge and stay fully charged, but then again
this depends on type of your charger - if this is to be true, standby
charge current shouldn't be bigger than about 80 - 100 mA (say for
2300-2600 mAh batteries) Also note that NiMH batteries loose their charge
appr. 1 % per day, so in one month of lying in a drawer they loose about
30% of charge.

--



Hello Kyle,

You are lucky today. I have been using rechargeable batteries since the
70's.

There is nothing wrong with your charger or your batteries. Let me explain.

When a rechargeable battery like NiCad or NiMH (NiMH is much better than
NiCad. Avoid buying NiCad), the battery does not hold much charge. You need
to charge and discharge the battery at least 5 to 10 times before it reaches
its full indicated capacity.

So when you first charge the battery, because the battery is new and does
not hold much charge, the voltage will rise rapidly so your charger thinks
it is fully charged and shuts off and begins to trickle charge.

What you should do is use the battery until your camera says it is dead and
then charge the battery again. If you do this for about 5 to 10 times, your
battery will be properly conditioned. You will notice the gradual
lengthening of the time you can use the battery in your camera for the first
few times you recharge your batteries.

Best Regards,

Wannabe
=======

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I started charging the batteries
earlier today and it actually took a few hours. What I really wanted to
know was how do I do a quick charge versus a standard charge? The
charger just mentions a quick charge but the batteries have both (2.5
hours and 14 hours). Also, on the batteries, are the times listed the
amount of time it should take to charge or the amount of time they will
last with each respective charge? I guess I was thinking that the time
meant how long they would last with each type of charge, but now
thinking about it I can see if it means how long it will take to charge
then it doesn't matter if the charger does a quick or standard charge
as long as both will give me the same battery life.

By the way, the batteries are NiMH rechargeable (2000 mAh).

Thanks again, and sorry for not being that clear. I don't know a lot
about this stuff. Also, if you think I need to buy better batteries or
whatever, let me know. I plan on using this pretty frequently but
nothing serious.

"Kyle Evans" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I started charging the batteries
earlier today and it actually took a few hours. What I really wanted to
know was how do I do a quick charge versus a standard charge? The
charger just mentions a quick charge but the batteries have both (2.5
hours and 14 hours). Also, on the batteries, are the times listed the
amount of time it should take to charge or the amount of time they will
last with each respective charge? I guess I was thinking that the time
meant how long they would last with each type of charge, but now
thinking about it I can see if it means how long it will take to charge
then it doesn't matter if the charger does a quick or standard charge
as long as both will give me the same battery life.

By the way, the batteries are NiMH rechargeable (2000 mAh).

Thanks again, and sorry for not being that clear. I don't know a lot
about this stuff. Also, if you think I need to buy better batteries or
whatever, let me know. I plan on using this pretty frequently but
nothing serious.


Hello Evans,

The time and current printed on your NiMH battery

Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA (14 x 200 = 2800 mAH)
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA" (2.5 x 900 = 2250 mAH)

and your battery is rated at 2000mAH.

The extra input is to account for the loss because the charging process is
not 100% efficient.

The suggested charging methods are by fixed duration of time with fixed
charging current. It is hard to buy a charger other than the one that is
made by the same company that makes the battery to meet these figures.

What your father have bought is a more advanced charger which is controlled
by a circuit that detects the voltage of the battery to determine if the
battery is fully charged. These are sometimes called automatic chargers.
This kind of charger is not likely to overcharge your battery like the
traditional ones which has a fixed rate, because even if you put a fully
charged battery into your automatic charger the charger will shut off after
just a short time.

The nominal terminal voltage of a NiMH battery is 1.2 volt. An automatic
charger will charge the battery with a high current to about 1.48 volt and
then stop the quick charge mode (your light goes from red to green) and go
into trickle charge mode which will slowly charge the battery to full
capacity. You can believe that when your charger changes from red to green,
your battery is about 80% full.

The ability of a battery to accept "quick charge" varies with different
brand. Some cheaper or less advanced brands will be damaged if quick charged
too many times. Normally a good NiMH that can accept quick charge will not
heat up too much during quick charge. If you notice your batteries heat up
too hot for your fingers to stay in touch for more than 30 seconds, it is a
good sign that the brand of NiMH battery is not suitable for quick charging.
Note that even good NiMH batteries will heat up in the first few times of
quick charging (because they are not yet properly conditioned).

The above is from my thirty years of using rechargeable batteries. Hope that
will help you.


Best Regards,

Wannabe
=======

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:29:57 -0500, WannabeSomeone wrote:

There is nothing wrong with your charger or your batteries. Let me explain.

When a rechargeable battery like NiCad or NiMH (NiMH is much better than
NiCad. Avoid buying NiCad), the battery does not hold much charge. You need
to charge and discharge the battery at least 5 to 10 times before it reaches
its full indicated capacity.

So when you first charge the battery, because the battery is new and does
not hold much charge, the voltage will rise rapidly so your charger thinks
it is fully charged and shuts off and begins to trickle charge.

Perhaps that's true if you buy batteries that have aged 5 or more
years on a warehouse shelf and are in a less than ideal state. I've
bought and used well over 100, probably close to 200 rechargeable
batteries (mostly NiCad and NiMH) and have always tested them the
first several times they were used. I have never found any (except
for one set) that didn't provide more than 90% of their claimed
capacity from the first charge on. The one set that didn't was a
no-name brand purchased in CompUSA that was supposed to have been
2100mah, but provided a capacity equivalent to only about 1400 to
1500mah consistently over the first half dozen charges.


By the way, the batteries are NiMH rechargeable (2000 mAh).

Yep, I calculated that and mentioned it in the previous message,
based on the recommended charge rates that you quoted.


Thanks again, and sorry for not being that clear. I don't know a lot
about this stuff. Also, if you think I need to buy better batteries or
whatever, let me know. I plan on using this pretty frequently but
nothing serious.

You do NOT have to buy better batteries. The best NiMH
rechargeable batteries are currently about 2500 or 2600 mah, and
they'll last longer in your camera, but only about 25% longer. In a
year or two you'll probably be able to buy 3200 mah NiMH cells, and
while they'll last even longer than today's batteries, if 2000man or
2500mah does an adequate job, there's no reason to waste money on
higher capacity batteries. As you use *any* battery, its capacity
will decline with time. In two years, your 2000mah batteries may
provide no better service than new 1600mah batteries would. If you
find that that has you recharging the batteries more often than
you'd like, it might be time to replace the batteries. But if your
batteries, reduced to only 1600mah capacity, last all day on a
single charge (for *your* camera, using your shooting style), then
there won't be an urgent reason to replace them. Only you know will
know when the time will come to replace them, and if you're not
sure, then it probably hasn't reached that time yet . . .

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:29:57 -0500, WannabeSomeone wrote:

What you should do is

Not what I just did. In simultaneously replying to your message
and Kyle's, I tacked on to the end of my last reply to you, what was
intended for the reply to Kyle. SBT

On 27 Dec 2005 18:49:53 -0800, Kyle Evans wrote:

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I started charging the batteries
earlier today and it actually took a few hours. What I really wanted to
know was how do I do a quick charge versus a standard charge? The
charger just mentions a quick charge but the batteries have both (2.5
hours and 14 hours). Also, on the batteries, are the times listed the
amount of time it should take to charge or the amount of time they will
last with each respective charge? I guess I was thinking that the time
meant how long they would last with each type of charge, but now
thinking about it I can see if it means how long it will take to charge
then it doesn't matter if the charger does a quick or standard charge
as long as both will give me the same battery life.

Unless you have one of a very small number of chargers (I'm fairly
sure that you don't) that allows the selection of charge rate,
you'll get only what the charger was designed to do. This usually
amounts to the default "quick" charge rate for the first part of the
charge cycle. If you have a so-called "smart" charger, this will be
for a variable amount of time, depending on the capacity of the
batteries, typically ending when the batteries are about 85% to 90%
charged. If you have a no-so-smart charger, the amount of time will
be based on a timer circuit, and when the time limit has been
reached, the batteries might not be fully charged or they might be
overcharged, depending on the batteries that were used. For both
types of chargers, they will then often switch to a much slower
trickle charge rate. What you should know is that you usually have
no say in the matter.

The batteries mention the 2.5 and 14 hour charge times, but that's
pretty meaningless, and is only provided as a clue to how long it
should take to charge the batteries (from a fully discharged state)
if they are charged at the given rates, and usually if you do the
math, you'll see that the charge rate (in amps or ma) times the time
(in hours) is about 40% greater than the capacity of the batteries,
due to inefficiencies in the charging process:

"Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA"

14 hrs * 200ma == 2,800 maHrs (40% greater than 2,000 mah)
2.5 hrs * 900ma == 2,250 maHrs (only about 10% greater)

I think that this means that to prevent heat damage to the
batteries when quick charging, the manufacturer wants the batteries
to be charged for only 2.5 hours at the 900 ma rate, leaving them
undercharged, but avoiding heat damage. Then the chargers should
switch to a trickle charge rate in order to complete the charge,
even if it takes several additional hours to finish. For the
charger to fully charge the batteries using the quick charge rate,
they'd have to be charged longer than 2.5 hours, about 3.11 hours at
the 900 ma rate, but the heat generated at the end of the charge
cycle would probably substantially shorten the life of the
batteries. When charging at the much lower 200 ma rate, which isn't
much greater than a trickle charge rate anyway, heat damage won't be
much of a concern.


By the way, the batteries are NiMH rechargeable (2000 mAh).

Yep, I calculated that and mentioned it in the previous message,
based on the recommended charge rates that you quoted.


Thanks again, and sorry for not being that clear. I don't know a lot
about this stuff. Also, if you think I need to buy better batteries or
whatever, let me know. I plan on using this pretty frequently but
nothing serious.

You do NOT have to buy better batteries. The best NiMH
rechargeable batteries are currently about 2500 or 2600 mah, and
they'll last longer in your camera, but only about 25% longer. In a
year or two you'll probably be able to buy 3200 mah NiMH cells, and
while they'll last even longer than today's batteries, if 2000man or
2500mah does an adequate job, there's no reason to waste money on
higher capacity batteries. As you use *any* battery, its capacity
will decline with time. In two years, your 2000mah batteries may
provide no better service than new 1600mah batteries would. If you
find that that has you recharging the batteries more often than
you'd like, it might be time to replace the batteries. But if your
batteries, reduced to only 1600mah capacity, last all day on a
single charge (for *your* camera, using your shooting style), then
there won't be an urgent reason to replace them. Only you know will
know when the time will come to replace them, and if you're not
sure, then it probably hasn't reached that time yet . . .

"ASAAR" wrote in message
...
On 27 Dec 2005 18:49:53 -0800, Kyle Evans wrote:

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I started charging the batteries
earlier today and it actually took a few hours. What I really wanted to
know was how do I do a quick charge versus a standard charge? The
charger just mentions a quick charge but the batteries have both (2.5
hours and 14 hours). Also, on the batteries, are the times listed the
amount of time it should take to charge or the amount of time they will
last with each respective charge? I guess I was thinking that the time
meant how long they would last with each type of charge, but now
thinking about it I can see if it means how long it will take to charge
then it doesn't matter if the charger does a quick or standard charge
as long as both will give me the same battery life.

Unless you have one of a very small number of chargers (I'm fairly
sure that you don't) that allows the selection of charge rate,
you'll get only what the charger was designed to do. This usually
amounts to the default "quick" charge rate for the first part of the
charge cycle. If you have a so-called "smart" charger, this will be
for a variable amount of time, depending on the capacity of the
batteries, typically ending when the batteries are about 85% to 90%
charged. If you have a no-so-smart charger, the amount of time will
be based on a timer circuit, and when the time limit has been
reached, the batteries might not be fully charged or they might be
overcharged, depending on the batteries that were used. For both
types of chargers, they will then often switch to a much slower
trickle charge rate. What you should know is that you usually have
no say in the matter.

The batteries mention the 2.5 and 14 hour charge times, but that's
pretty meaningless, and is only provided as a clue to how long it
should take to charge the batteries (from a fully discharged state)
if they are charged at the given rates, and usually if you do the
math, you'll see that the charge rate (in amps or ma) times the time
(in hours) is about 40% greater than the capacity of the batteries,
due to inefficiencies in the charging process:

"Standard Charge: 14 Hrs at 200mA
Quick Charge: 2.5 Hrs at 900mA"

14 hrs * 200ma == 2,800 maHrs (40% greater than 2,000 mah)
2.5 hrs * 900ma == 2,250 maHrs (only about 10% greater)

I think that this means that to prevent heat damage to the
batteries when quick charging, the manufacturer wants the batteries
to be charged for only 2.5 hours at the 900 ma rate, leaving them
undercharged, but avoiding heat damage. Then the chargers should
switch to a trickle charge rate in order to complete the charge,
even if it takes several additional hours to finish. For the
charger to fully charge the batteries using the quick charge rate,
they'd have to be charged longer than 2.5 hours, about 3.11 hours at
the 900 ma rate, but the heat generated at the end of the charge
cycle would probably substantially shorten the life of the
batteries. When charging at the much lower 200 ma rate, which isn't
much greater than a trickle charge rate anyway, heat damage won't be
much of a concern.


By the way, the batteries are NiMH rechargeable (2000 mAh).

Yep, I calculated that and mentioned it in the previous message,
based on the recommended charge rates that you quoted.


Thanks again, and sorry for not being that clear. I don't know a lot
about this stuff. Also, if you think I need to buy better batteries or
whatever, let me know. I plan on using this pretty frequently but
nothing serious.

You do NOT have to buy better batteries. The best NiMH
rechargeable batteries are currently about 2500 or 2600 mah, and
they'll last longer in your camera, but only about 25% longer. In a
year or two you'll probably be able to buy 3200 mah NiMH cells, and
while they'll last even longer than today's batteries, if 2000man or
2500mah does an adequate job, there's no reason to waste money on
higher capacity batteries. As you use *any* battery, its capacity
will decline with time. In two years, your 2000mah batteries may
provide no better service than new 1600mah batteries would. If you
find that that has you recharging the batteries more often than
you'd like, it might be time to replace the batteries. But if your
batteries, reduced to only 1600mah capacity, last all day on a
single charge (for *your* camera, using your shooting style), then
there won't be an urgent reason to replace them. Only you know will
know when the time will come to replace them, and if you're not
sure, then it probably hasn't reached that time yet . . .

Since this came from Walmart, I suspect the charger is one generation later
than the one I have.

1.Mine will charge 4 2000mah Duracells in about 2.5 hrs before switching to
trickle charge.
2. If you remove the fully charged cells and try to re-charge within a few
moments, the charger will not immediately switch to trickle charge and the
cells will get hot. The charger looks for a change in voltage. I might top
off cells which have sat for a month or more with no problem and typically
they will switch to trickle after about 20 minutes.
3. The current Walmart replacement for my charger claims faster times, so
take this into account.
4. I notice they also carry a second model, same mfgr (Digital), only a
dollar or so more and claims even faster times.
5. I believe both models come with an auto cord. As far as I'm concerned
these things are a bargain. I've seen the same units selling elsewhere for
double the price.
Dave Cohen