A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » Digital Photography » Digital Photography
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Travel without a camera



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old June 13th 17, 11:43 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 02:06:18 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 23:15:23 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 00:02:39 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 17:35:03 +0200, android wrote:

In article , PAS wrote:

On 6/6/2017 1:03 PM, android wrote:
In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Many photos are blown out and it's nowhere near to compete with a full
format
sensor when it comes to dynamic range or ISO
No surprise there. Get a better phone next time you're to renew your
contract:

No, nothing wrong with the performance of the iPhone 7 at all. dxomark
scores don't tell the entire story but the score of the iPhone 7 is so
close to the top score that I defy you to tell the difference with your
eye between the same photo from an iPhone 7 and any Xperia.

perhaps if you into SOOC only... If you BSI and such then that is
something that APPL can't offer and that gives you more to work with in
post.

Wanna have an one inch sensor "in" your iPhone? Then get one of these:

http://www.dxo.com/us/dxo-one

Samples galore he

https://www.flickr.com/groups/dxoone/pool/

THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you lok at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?


Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.


Do canon and nikon and others show you things their cameras can't do ?


What's that got to do with it?

Seems a strange request.


Not if you are trying to establish the limits.


But maybe you're used to looking at failures having to run a PC ;-)


Oh yes! I can try all kinds of exciting things which are not possible
in a Mac. :-)


No failures exactly, but right now I'm having a lovely battle betwee
X-Rite and Dell, although I must give Dell top marks for the
assistance they are bringing to the battle.


Best of luck with that, I've been asked (unofficially) to take photos of the HRH Princess Royal when she visits the new graduate centre today, personally I can't think of anything less interesting to photograph :-(

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #22  
Old June 13th 17, 11:46 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 09:11:38 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 15:49:27 UTC+1, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:19:53 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 13:45:56 UTC+1, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 5:06:24 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 23:15:23 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 00:02:39 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 17:35:03 +0200, android wrote:

In article , PAS wrote:

On 6/6/2017 1:03 PM, android wrote:
In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Many photos are blown out and it's nowhere near to compete with a full
format
sensor when it comes to dynamic range or ISO
No surprise there. Get a better phone next time you're to renew your
contract:

No, nothing wrong with the performance of the iPhone 7 at all. dxomark
scores don't tell the entire story but the score of the iPhone 7 is so
close to the top score that I defy you to tell the difference with your
eye between the same photo from an iPhone 7 and any Xperia.

perhaps if you into SOOC only... If you BSI and such then that is
something that APPL can't offer and that gives you more to work with in
post.

Wanna have an one inch sensor "in" your iPhone? Then get one of these:

http://www.dxo.com/us/dxo-one

Samples galore he

https://www.flickr.com/groups/dxoone/pool/

THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you lok at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.

Do canon and nikon and others show you things their cameras can't do ?

Seems a strange request.

YMMV, but it is spot-on AFAIC.

For example, I've talked before about the assessment of dSLR's
for use in underwater photography and how there was a lot of
discussion & hands-on experimentation by the Pros for each
major new product, to learn what worked / what didn't. The
primary example of which (and which motivated me to delay
changing over from film for ~5 years) was how they did poorly
(vs film) in capturing "sunballs" in CFWA compositions.


But not from the manufacters that is the point and they don't
show how they fail either, it just doesn't happen.


Fair enough that an OEM will avoid admitting to a weakness,


It's hardly a weakness.


but that's also the consumer-centric power of the Internet:
more opportunities to hear from (hopefully) less biased
independent third parties.


You mean like when they put an iphone in a vice to bend it ?


With sufficient public awareness/pressure, OEMs are confronted
with the dilemma of better-informed customers, which can lead
to relevant improvements getting to market (hopefully) sooner.


but that isn't the situation.


For example, Canon got a black eye with one of the versions
of the 5D when a bunch of them crapped out on customers in
Antarctica ... Nikons in literally the same boat didn't fail.


That's a manufactuing issue not a performacne one.

Subsequent versions of Canon dSLR's in that class ended up
having more/better waterproofing and Canon's literature made
very deliberate notation of same: it had become harder for
them to try to ignore such design features (shortcomings).

-hh


That's nothing like what eric was asking for.

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.


No show me any OEM canera maker that shows what their cameras can't do.

You notice that they only normally show things they can do, not what they can't

I said I would like to see some failures. I *didn't* say I would like
the manufacturer to show some failures.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #23  
Old June 14th 17, 05:35 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
android
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,854
Default Travel without a camera

In article ,
Eric Stevens wrote:

I said I would like to see some failures. I *didn't* say I would like
the manufacturer to show some failures.


http://trustwaymetal.com/can-you-scrap-digital-cameras/

http://tinyurl.com/mj84mql
--
teleportation kills
  #24  
Old June 14th 17, 10:02 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Wed, 14 Jun 2017 02:14:54 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 23:46:55 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 09:11:38 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 15:49:27 UTC+1, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:19:53 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 13:45:56 UTC+1, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 5:06:24 AM UTC-4, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 June 2017 23:15:23 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 00:02:39 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 17:35:03 +0200, android wrote:

In article , PAS wrote:

On 6/6/2017 1:03 PM, android wrote:
In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Many photos are blown out and it's nowhere near to compete with a full
format
sensor when it comes to dynamic range or ISO
No surprise there. Get a better phone next time you're to renew your
contract:

No, nothing wrong with the performance of the iPhone 7 at all. dxomark
scores don't tell the entire story but the score of the iPhone 7 is so
close to the top score that I defy you to tell the difference with your
eye between the same photo from an iPhone 7 and any Xperia.

perhaps if you into SOOC only... If you BSI and such then that is
something that APPL can't offer and that gives you more to work with in
post.

Wanna have an one inch sensor "in" your iPhone? Then get one of these:

http://www.dxo.com/us/dxo-one

Samples galore he

https://www.flickr.com/groups/dxoone/pool/

THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you lok at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.

Do canon and nikon and others show you things their cameras can't do ?

Seems a strange request.

YMMV, but it is spot-on AFAIC.

For example, I've talked before about the assessment of dSLR's
for use in underwater photography and how there was a lot of
discussion & hands-on experimentation by the Pros for each
major new product, to learn what worked / what didn't. The
primary example of which (and which motivated me to delay
changing over from film for ~5 years) was how they did poorly
(vs film) in capturing "sunballs" in CFWA compositions.


But not from the manufacters that is the point and they don't
show how they fail either, it just doesn't happen.

Fair enough that an OEM will avoid admitting to a weakness,

It's hardly a weakness.


but that's also the consumer-centric power of the Internet:
more opportunities to hear from (hopefully) less biased
independent third parties.

You mean like when they put an iphone in a vice to bend it ?


With sufficient public awareness/pressure, OEMs are confronted
with the dilemma of better-informed customers, which can lead
to relevant improvements getting to market (hopefully) sooner.

but that isn't the situation.


For example, Canon got a black eye with one of the versions
of the 5D when a bunch of them crapped out on customers in
Antarctica ... Nikons in literally the same boat didn't fail.

That's a manufactuing issue not a performacne one.

Subsequent versions of Canon dSLR's in that class ended up
having more/better waterproofing and Canon's literature made
very deliberate notation of same: it had become harder for
them to try to ignore such design features (shortcomings).

-hh

That's nothing like what eric was asking for.

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.

No show me any OEM canera maker that shows what their cameras can't do.

You notice that they only normally show things they can do, not what they can't

I said I would like to see some failures. I *didn't* say I would like
the manufacturer to show some failures.


What sort of failures ?, as it makes no sense .
When you brought yuor camera did you ask for examples of where the camera fails.


I knew what it was supposed to be good at and pushed hard at the
limits to find out where the limits lay. Here is one I took in
extremely poor and patchy lighting, with the lens at 70mm long focus
and the camera held over my head doing the focusing without any
guidance from me. I wouldn't have been surprised by a failure but have
a look: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0fximp4dt...00601.jpg?dl=0

Just give some examples, but I can tell you one failure, it can't brew beer, another failure is that it can;t bake bread either.



--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #25  
Old June 14th 17, 10:13 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Wed, 14 Jun 2017 02:10:36 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 23:43:55 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 02:06:18 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 23:15:23 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 00:02:39 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 17:35:03 +0200, android wrote:

In article , PAS wrote:

On 6/6/2017 1:03 PM, android wrote:
In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Many photos are blown out and it's nowhere near to compete with a full
format
sensor when it comes to dynamic range or ISO
No surprise there. Get a better phone next time you're to renew your
contract:

No, nothing wrong with the performance of the iPhone 7 at all. dxomark
scores don't tell the entire story but the score of the iPhone 7 is so
close to the top score that I defy you to tell the difference with your
eye between the same photo from an iPhone 7 and any Xperia.

perhaps if you into SOOC only... If you BSI and such then that is
something that APPL can't offer and that gives you more to work with in
post.

Wanna have an one inch sensor "in" your iPhone? Then get one of these:

http://www.dxo.com/us/dxo-one

Samples galore he

https://www.flickr.com/groups/dxoone/pool/

THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you look at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.

Do canon and nikon and others show you things their cameras can't do ?


What's that got to do with it?


everything.


Seems a strange request.


Not if you are trying to establish the limits.


you weren't trying to find limits.
You wanted to know what it couldn't do or when it would fail.

Here's what you said in case you've already forgotten.
____________________
"THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you look at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?


Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.
________________________________________


I was assuming a certain amount of intelligence on the part of the
reader.


But maybe you're used to looking at failures having to run a PC ;-)


Oh yes! I can try all kinds of exciting things which are not possible
in a Mac. :-)


I can run windows on my Mac, I could have even got the recent wannacry but sadly I could get infected by that unless running windows, I'm not sure how I can live without such a feature.
Does you're PC say it can't run Mac OS X somewhere in the instructions or perhaps on the box or case.

Can you install an Nvidia GTX 1070 graphics card?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #26  
Old June 15th 17, 10:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 02:01:15 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 14 June 2017 22:13:42 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jun 2017 02:10:36 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 23:43:55 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 02:06:18 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 23:15:23 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 June 2017 00:02:39 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 17:35:03 +0200, android wrote:

In article , PAS wrote:

On 6/6/2017 1:03 PM, android wrote:
In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Many photos are blown out and it's nowhere near to compete with a full
format
sensor when it comes to dynamic range or ISO
No surprise there. Get a better phone next time you're to renew your
contract:

No, nothing wrong with the performance of the iPhone 7 at all. dxomark
scores don't tell the entire story but the score of the iPhone 7 is so
close to the top score that I defy you to tell the difference with your
eye between the same photo from an iPhone 7 and any Xperia.

perhaps if you into SOOC only... If you BSI and such then that is
something that APPL can't offer and that gives you more to work with in
post.

Wanna have an one inch sensor "in" your iPhone? Then get one of these:

http://www.dxo.com/us/dxo-one

Samples galore he

https://www.flickr.com/groups/dxoone/pool/

THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you look at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.

Do canon and nikon and others show you things their cameras can't do ?

What's that got to do with it?

everything.


Seems a strange request.

Not if you are trying to establish the limits.

you weren't trying to find limits.
You wanted to know what it couldn't do or when it would fail.

Here's what you said in case you've already forgotten.
____________________
"THey are quite impressive but, I would like to see some failures also.

Why ?, when you by a camera do you look at the failure shots taken with that camera or of course lens ?

Because I would like to know what the camera can't do, as well as what
it can do.
________________________________________


I was assuming a certain amount of intelligence on the part of the
reader.


Manufactuers expect the same and so do advertisers.
Which is why most cameras that aren;t waterproof don;t show you pictures of what happens if their camera is used underwater, those underwater pictures you see are usually taken with cameras capable of being taken underwater.

Most assume that a camera who;s specfified as 5 FPS can go at 5 FPS we dont; need pictures of what happens if we set the shutter speed to 2 seconds and find we no longer get 5 FPS.



But maybe you're used to looking at failures having to run a PC ;-)

Oh yes! I can try all kinds of exciting things which are not possible
in a Mac. :-)

I can run windows on my Mac, I could have even got the recent wannacry but sadly I could get infected by that unless running windows, I'm not sure how I can live without such a feature.
Does you're PC say it can't run Mac OS X somewhere in the instructions or perhaps on the box or case.

Can you install an Nvidia GTX 1070 graphics card?


No, why would I want to it displays 4K graphiccs my imac can display 5K graphics with built in card, Plus I'm not really a games player my friend is who prefers macs, but has a PC for playing games in his spare time and he recenty brought a card for half the cost of the GTX 1070 and it works for him.
So you don;t need that graphics card even as a gamer why do you feel you need one ?
But if you really want a good graphics card why not go for the NVIDIA Quadro GP100 graphics card ?

Because itss only just coming available.

Because it's a work station card.

Because it costs several arms and a leg.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #27  
Old June 15th 17, 09:36 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 06:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

--- snip ---

Oh yes! I can try all kinds of exciting things which are not possible
in a Mac. :-)

I can run windows on my Mac, I could have even got the recent wannacry but sadly I could get infected by that unless running windows, I'm not sure how I can live without such a feature.
Does you're PC say it can't run Mac OS X somewhere in the instructions or perhaps on the box or case.

Can you install an Nvidia GTX 1070 graphics card?

No, why would I want to it displays 4K graphiccs my imac can display 5K graphics with built in card, Plus I'm not really a games player my friend is who prefers macs, but has a PC for playing games in his spare time and he recenty brought a card for half the cost of the GTX 1070 and it works for him.
So you don;t need that graphics card even as a gamer why do you feel you need one ?



But if you really want a good graphics card why not go for the NVIDIA Quadro GP100 graphics card ?

Because itss only just coming available.


So you have a PC and upgradable PC I assume, just swop it out, sorted surely.


Because it's a work station card.


SO yuo cant put it in your PC. Perhaps yuo brought the wrong PC.


It's not the best suited to photography.



Because it costs several arms and a leg.


3 times the cosy of my iMac.

So you went for a cheaper card so you could get 4K well I have 5k on my iMac so I dont need to change my graphics card to get 4k or 5k.

So what advantages does your new 4K graphics card have over what I have.
AMD Radeon Radeon R9 M295X 4GB

Has your card got a thunderbolt connector for using with 2 5K displays ?


Nope, and I don't want/need one.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #28  
Old June 15th 17, 10:11 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Travel without a camera

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


So you went for a cheaper card so you could get 4K well I have 5k on my
iMac so I dont need to change my graphics card to get 4k or 5k.

So what advantages does your new 4K graphics card have over what I have.
AMD Radeon Radeon R9 M295X 4GB

Has your card got a thunderbolt connector for using with 2 5K displays ?


Nope, and I don't want/need one.


why not?

two wide gamut 5k displays is just about the best way to currently work
with photos. a very close second would be one wide gamut 5k display.

three 5k displays is a bit overkill for photos, but for video it can be
useful.
  #29  
Old June 16th 17, 12:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:11:01 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


So you went for a cheaper card so you could get 4K well I have 5k on my
iMac so I dont need to change my graphics card to get 4k or 5k.

So what advantages does your new 4K graphics card have over what I have.
AMD Radeon Radeon R9 M295X 4GB

Has your card got a thunderbolt connector for using with 2 5K displays ?


Nope, and I don't want/need one.


why not?

two wide gamut 5k displays is just about the best way to currently work
with photos. a very close second would be one wide gamut 5k display.


I don't want two (large) 5k monitors. I haven't got the room for them.
I'm quite happy with my two 25" 2.5k monitors. In the unlikely event
that I ever end up with two 5k monitors I expect my GTX 1070 to look
after them via the two DisplayPort 1.4 connections.

three 5k displays is a bit overkill for photos, but for video it can be
useful.


I do no significant video.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #30  
Old June 17th 17, 12:24 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Travel without a camera

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 02:17:18 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 15 June 2017 21:36:31 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 06:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

--- snip ---

Oh yes! I can try all kinds of exciting things which are not possible
in a Mac. :-)

I can run windows on my Mac, I could have even got the recent wannacry but sadly I could get infected by that unless running windows, I'm not sure how I can live without such a feature.
Does you're PC say it can't run Mac OS X somewhere in the instructions or perhaps on the box or case.

Can you install an Nvidia GTX 1070 graphics card?

No, why would I want to it displays 4K graphiccs my imac can display 5K graphics with built in card, Plus I'm not really a games player my friend is who prefers macs, but has a PC for playing games in his spare time and he recenty brought a card for half the cost of the GTX 1070 and it works for him.
So you don;t need that graphics card even as a gamer why do you feel you need one ?


But if you really want a good graphics card why not go for the NVIDIA Quadro GP100 graphics card ?

Because itss only just coming available.

So you have a PC and upgradable PC I assume, just swop it out, sorted surely.


Because it's a work station card.

SO yuo cant put it in your PC. Perhaps yuo brought the wrong PC.


It's not the best suited to photography.


and the Nvidia GTX 1070 graphics card is better suited to photography ?
You do know it's really just a lower spec gaming card.


One of the factors I chose it for was its ability to handle all the
calculations that Adobe is likely to throw at it in the forseeable
future.

So can you tell me how this card will improve photography.


It will speed up the editing experience.

You don't need to know what you're doing to spend a lot of money on a graphics card.
Do yuo know what advantages you getting buying the GTX 1070 over other options.

Yes, including its ability to handle multiple higher density screens.



So what advantages does your new 4K graphics card have over what I have.
AMD Radeon Radeon R9 M295X 4GB

Has your card got a thunderbolt connector for using with 2 5K displays ?


Nope, and I don't want/need one.


Well I dont think I need a GTX 1070, so why ask whethe ror not I can install one ?


I didn't. I said you couldn't.

If you can tell me the reason(s) for having one maybe you'll convince me I'm missing out on something, as that's when I think about upgrading things, so until I find I;m missing out on something I'm happy with my inbuilt M295X .

Are you scratching at a sore spot?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Travel Camera Trundle Digital Photography 14 November 24th 14 09:00 PM
Ideal travel camera... AKT Digital Photography 5 November 18th 07 09:11 PM
Air Travel with LF Camera Ron Gans Large Format Photography Equipment 17 April 10th 07 10:34 PM
Need New Travel Camera rhonda Digital Photography 4 August 4th 06 04:56 PM
Digital travel camera [email protected] Film & Labs 0 January 29th 04 06:33 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.