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#1
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new vanadium toner
Hello, all of you photographers,
I have done quite some research on toning with different colors and could not find a suitable recipe for yellow and green toners with common chemicals. I have some knowledge of chemistry, although I'm not a professional in that field. Based on my knowledge of vanadium chemistry, I have come up with a vanadium toner (yellow base toner with lots of variations, allowing greens, olive greens and sepia variations). I would like to share the results with other people and would appreciate feedback and improvements (no, nothing is perfect in this world and everything can be improved...). The toner gives good results, but preparation is still somewhat cumbersome and for many darkroom hobbyists there may be too much hassle with chemicals, although I expect that many others will not have any problems with it. If somebody sees a way to make preparation easier, then this would really be a nice toner. In order to keep this posting short, just a link to a PDF file, containing a description of the toner. http://www.woelen.nl/photo/toner.pdf I hope this is interesting for some of you out there. Wilco Oelen PS: The email address , given here, will be removed soon if it receives too much spam. For the definite address replace photo by the dutch word foto and I prefer replies on the foto-address. |
#2
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new vanadium toner
"Wilco Oelen" wrote in message om... Hello, all of you photographers, I have done quite some research on toning with different colors and could not find a suitable recipe for yellow and green toners with common chemicals. I have some knowledge of chemistry, although I'm not a professional in that field. Based on my knowledge of vanadium chemistry, I have come up with a vanadium toner (yellow base toner with lots of variations, allowing greens, olive greens and sepia variations). I would like to share the results with other people and would appreciate feedback and improvements (no, nothing is perfect in this world and everything can be improved...). The toner gives good results, but preparation is still somewhat cumbersome and for many darkroom hobbyists there may be too much hassle with chemicals, although I expect that many others will not have any problems with it. If somebody sees a way to make preparation easier, then this would really be a nice toner. In order to keep this posting short, just a link to a PDF file, containing a description of the toner. http://www.woelen.nl/photo/toner.pdf I hope this is interesting for some of you out there. Wilco Oelen PS: The email address , given here, will be removed soon if it receives too much spam. For the definite address replace photo by the dutch word foto and I prefer replies on the foto-address. This is a very interesting paper. There have been other Green toners in the past using Vanadium compounds. I will see if I can find some formulae. In some books its only mentioned that Vanadium-green toners exist but without description or formula. I think I have one or possibly two formulas somewhere. As you know most published formulas for green toners are combinations of Sulphide sepia and Iron-blue toner and are not completely permanent. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#4
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new vanadium toner
This is a very interesting paper. There have been other Green toners in the past using Vanadium compounds. I will see if I can find some formulae. In some books its only mentioned that Vanadium-green toners exist but without description or formula. I think I have one or possibly two formulas somewhere. Tim Rudman gives formulae for two Vandium-based green toners -- GT-16 and Walls -- in his Toning Book. As you know most published formulas for green toners are combinations of Sulphide sepia and Iron-blue toner and are not completely permanent. Rudman states that while Vandium based toners are not archival, they are "reputed to be very permanent". -- -tony http://www.shapesandshadows.com |
#5
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new vanadium toner
"Robert Feinman" wrote in message ... In article , says... Hello, all of you photographers, I have done quite some research on toning with different colors and could not find a suitable recipe for yellow and green toners with common chemicals. I have some knowledge of chemistry, although I'm not a professional in that field. Based on my knowledge of vanadium chemistry, I have come up with a vanadium toner (yellow base toner with lots of variations, allowing greens, olive greens and sepia variations). From my 1924 edition of Wall, "Photographic Facts and Formulas" A bath: Potassium ferricynaide 50g water l liter ammonia (enough to smell distinctly!) B bath: Vanadium chloride - 2 percent solution ferric chloride 2 percent solution For use: 125cc of A & B water to make 1 liter There are three other formulas as well using oxalic acid It's hard to discover anything new in conventional photography.. -- Robert D Feinman Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs http://robertdfeinman.com mail: I found the following in the "British Journal Almanac" for 1940 For Green Tones Solution A Potassium Fericyanide 2.0 grams Distilled water to make 100.0 ml Solution B Vanadium Chloride stock solution 3.0 ml Ferric Ammonium Citrate (green scales) 1.0 gram Sodium Citrate, neutral 25.0 grams Ammonium Chloride 2.0 grams Hydrochloric Acid 14.0 ml Distilled water to make 100.0 ml The Hydrochloric Acid is specified as being Specific Gravity = 1.16 The Vanadium stock solution is made by mixing: Vanadium Chloride ("syrupy") 28.4 ml Hydrochloric Acid 18.0 ml Distilled water to make 62.0 ml In making up the B solution first add teh hydrochloric acid to the vanadium solution. then dissolve the ferric citrate, sodium citrate, and ammonium chloride in 100.0 ml of water and mix the two. Solution should be dull mauve blue; not green - until mixed with A. Both A and B solutions will keep for months at least. To mix the toning solution take 1 part A and 4 parts water, and separately, one part B and 4 parts water. Mix the two diluted solutions together to make the toner. Prints tone in 4 to 8 minutes. Rock constantly, then wash in 5 changes of water, each of 2 minutes, give a bath of hydrochloric acid, 1 part, and water, 50 parts, for 2 minutes, and finally wash for 15 minutes in 7 or 8 changes of water. Prints should be of the ordinary depth. The green tone is permanent. The above is somewhat of the kitchen chemistry type formula. I suspect, that since part of the toner is Iron-blue, the final tone may depend on the acidity of the wash water. Iron toners are bleached by alkaline wash water so must be washed in water which has been acidified, usually with a little Acetic acid. I suspect the color of the final image here is likely affected in a similar way. I stress that I am posting this for reference. I have not tried the formula and have no idea of whether it works. In general, BJA formulas are reasonably reliable. If you try this watch out for the Hydrochloric acid. Concentrated Hydrochloric is nasty stuff and very hazardous. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#6
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new vanadium toner
From my 1924 edition of Wall, "Photographic Facts and
Formulas" A bath: Potassium ferricynaide 50g water l liter ammonia (enough to smell distinctly!) B bath: Vanadium chloride - 2 percent solution ferric chloride 2 percent solution For use: 125cc of A & B water to make 1 liter There are three other formulas as well using oxalic acid It's hard to discover anything new in conventional photography.. I agree that really new things in photography are very hard to find. What may make this 'new' toner interesting, however, is that only common, cheap and easy to obtain chemicals are needed. I have tried to find a source of vanadium chloride of any oxidation state and did not succeed. Finally I could obtain some vanadyl sulfate pentahydrate, which was very expensive ($99 for 100 grams), and which only has a low vanadium contents and hence is used up quickly. This made me look for more economical alternatives. I have used vanadium pentoxide, as stated in the original posting, with great satisfaction and this can be obtained at many ceramics/pottery supply stores at low cost (some sources are given in the article). It has a high vanadium content, so only small amounts of this are needed. Wilco Oelen |
#7
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new vanadium toner
"Wilco Oelen" wrote in message om... From my 1924 edition of Wall, "Photographic Facts and Formulas" A bath: Potassium ferricynaide 50g water l liter ammonia (enough to smell distinctly!) B bath: Vanadium chloride - 2 percent solution ferric chloride 2 percent solution For use: 125cc of A & B water to make 1 liter There are three other formulas as well using oxalic acid It's hard to discover anything new in conventional photography.. I agree that really new things in photography are very hard to find. What may make this 'new' toner interesting, however, is that only common, cheap and easy to obtain chemicals are needed. I have tried to find a source of vanadium chloride of any oxidation state and did not succeed. Finally I could obtain some vanadyl sulfate pentahydrate, which was very expensive ($99 for 100 grams), and which only has a low vanadium contents and hence is used up quickly. This made me look for more economical alternatives. I have used vanadium pentoxide, as stated in the original posting, with great satisfaction and this can be obtained at many ceramics/pottery supply stores at low cost (some sources are given in the article). It has a high vanadium content, so only small amounts of this are needed. Wilco Oelen You've now put a bee in my bonnet because I saw somewhere a method of making Vanadium chloride. I don't remember where but it seems to me it wasn't too difficult. A toner which does not use concentrated Hydrochloric is an improvement right the-) -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#8
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new vanadium toner
You've now put a bee in my bonnet because I saw somewhere
a method of making Vanadium chloride. I don't remember where but it seems to me it wasn't too difficult. A toner which does not use concentrated Hydrochloric is an improvement right the-) I strongly doubt that you had a method for making vanadium chloride. Vanadium chloride is very hard to prepare for the average home hobbyist/chemist. This compound comes in three oxidation states, of which VCl2 (+2 oxidation state) and VCl3 (+3 oxidation state) are very prone to oxidation and extremely moisture sensitive and hardly can be kept outside the laboratory. VCl4 is more stable, with respect to oxidation, but it is even more sensitive to moisture than VCl3 and VCl2. It is a brown fuming liquid. This may be the 'sirupy' vanadium chloride mentioned in a recipe from the 1940's in this sequence of postings, but I'm not sure. Compounds of vanadium, which are easier to handle are hydrated vanadYL chloride and hydrated vanadYL sulfate. Vanadyl is vanadium in oxidation state +4, very tightly bound to one oxygen, hence [VO]2+, which is nice bright blue, when hydrated. I have bought some vanadyl sulfate (VOSO4 . 5H2O) at $99 per 100 g, which to my opinion is expensive. Vanadyl chloride (VOCl2 . xH2O) is even more expensive. Both the vanadyl sulfate and the chloride can be used for vanadium toning, but because of the low vanadium content, a fairly large amount of this stuff is needed. What can be done fairly easily is preparation of a vanadyl-salt (either sulfate or chloride) in solution from a vanadium compound in oxidation state +5, albeit that some noxious chemicals are needed for this. All recipes, based on vanadium toning mention vanadium chloride, but I personally believe these recipes are based on vanadyl chloride. If vanadium chloride of oxidation state, other than +4 is used, then these will be oxidized at once on addition of ferricyanide solution, as prescribed by many recipes. I tried my own recipe, as described in the paper, but without the use of hydrochloric acid or sulphuric acid, using sodium bisulfate instead. My attempt was not succesful, the result was really crappy. The toner, described in the paper gives remarkably white highlights, while with the bisulfate the highlights were almost as dark as the shadows, hence it is virtually useless. I'll try lateron with some other ratio's of chemicals, but I do not expect much of it. O.t.o.h., the toner itself does not require concentrated acids, the starting concentration is just 10%. Wilco |
#9
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new vanadium toner
"Wilco Oelen" wrote in message m... You've now put a bee in my bonnet because I saw somewhere a method of making Vanadium chloride. I don't remember where but it seems to me it wasn't too difficult. A toner which does not use concentrated Hydrochloric is an improvement right the-) I strongly doubt that you had a method for making vanadium chloride. Vanadium chloride is very hard to prepare for the average home hobbyist/chemist. This compound comes in three oxidation states, of which VCl2 (+2 oxidation state) and VCl3 (+3 oxidation state) are very prone to oxidation and extremely moisture sensitive and hardly can be kept outside the laboratory. VCl4 is more stable, with respect to oxidation, but it is even more sensitive to moisture than VCl3 and VCl2. It is a brown fuming liquid. This may be the 'sirupy' vanadium chloride mentioned in a recipe from the 1940's in this sequence of postings, but I'm not sure. Compounds of vanadium, which are easier to handle are hydrated vanadYL chloride and hydrated vanadYL sulfate. Vanadyl is vanadium in oxidation state +4, very tightly bound to one oxygen, hence [VO]2+, which is nice bright blue, when hydrated. I have bought some vanadyl sulfate (VOSO4 . 5H2O) at $99 per 100 g, which to my opinion is expensive. Vanadyl chloride (VOCl2 . xH2O) is even more expensive. Both the vanadyl sulfate and the chloride can be used for vanadium toning, but because of the low vanadium content, a fairly large amount of this stuff is needed. What can be done fairly easily is preparation of a vanadyl-salt (either sulfate or chloride) in solution from a vanadium compound in oxidation state +5, albeit that some noxious chemicals are needed for this. All recipes, based on vanadium toning mention vanadium chloride, but I personally believe these recipes are based on vanadyl chloride. If vanadium chloride of oxidation state, other than +4 is used, then these will be oxidized at once on addition of ferricyanide solution, as prescribed by many recipes. I tried my own recipe, as described in the paper, but without the use of hydrochloric acid or sulphuric acid, using sodium bisulfate instead. My attempt was not succesful, the result was really crappy. The toner, described in the paper gives remarkably white highlights, while with the bisulfate the highlights were almost as dark as the shadows, hence it is virtually useless. I'll try lateron with some other ratio's of chemicals, but I do not expect much of it. O.t.o.h., the toner itself does not require concentrated acids, the starting concentration is just 10%. Wilco This was a vague memory, I nearly always remember anyting I've read, but not always where it was. What I saw was instructions for making some Vanadium compound that was needed for the particular toner but not easily avialable off the shelf. I think there may be some material on green or yellow toners among the papers published on the old three-color Cinecolor process. Its been many years since I read these. Super-Cinecolor was a process intended to compete with Technicolor for motion pictures. It used duplitized film (film coated with emulsion on both sides), each toned to an appropriate color, with a dye image printed on top of one side for the third color. It was not a successful process. I don't remember ever seeing a movie made in it. There was an earlier Cinecolor process which was two color, it was awful. I think only Republic Pictures ever used it for features. From what I've seen on Turner Classic Movies Paramount evidently tried Super-Cinecolor for a few short subjects. In any case, most of the technical papers were published in the Journal of the Society of Motion Picture Engineers (now the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) c. late 1940's. Authors are Allan Gundlefinger and possibly others. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
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