Finally, the GPS manufacturers realize a common power supply is the right approach

"ASAAR" wrote

As for P&S cameras, most of my CoolPixen and all of the
Fujis and Canons and one Panny use AA batteries.

Unfortunately, my Coolpix 995 uses the EN-EL1 battery, so I have to use the
supplied battery charger, which has US style pins. Luckily it will accept
both 110v and 240v inputs so I can use it here.

The previous model (990) used AA batteries.

Paul

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:27:33 +1000, "Paul Bartram" paul.bartram AT OR
NEAR lizzy.com.au wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote

I have no problem at all with the government requiring standardized
interfaces for common electrical devices.

They should start with the common household power supply then. Different
voltages and different pin configurations depending on where you are in the
world. I have to use a clunky converter to make my Coolpix battery charger
fit an Australian power socket!

Which government do you think should deal with the compatability
problems of US and Australian power sockets?



Eric Stevens

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:32:27 +1200, Eric Stevens wrote:

They should start with the common household power supply then. Different
voltages and different pin configurations depending on where you are in the
world. I have to use a clunky converter to make my Coolpix battery charger
fit an Australian power socket!

Which government do you think should deal with the compatability
problems of US and Australian power sockets?

Clearly, the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

On 2009-07-01 06:12:51 -0700, ASAAR said:

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:32:27 +1200, Eric Stevens wrote:

They should start with the common household power supply then. Different
voltages and different pin configurations depending on where you are in the
world. I have to use a clunky converter to make my Coolpix battery charger
fit an Australian power socket!

Which government do you think should deal with the compatability
problems of US and Australian power sockets?

Clearly, the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

The mouse. Quite appropriate.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Pete D wrote:
"sarah bennett" wrote in message
...
As a followup to the two-year old article
A portable GPS should use standard mini-USB power (but which ones do)?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.g...c54a0185621cc9

Note the Europeans finally, two years later, have made the small USB
connector the standard for power supplies starting next year!

Micro-USB to be universal EU phone charger
http://blogs.zdnet.com/igeneration/?p=1964

Hopefully this adherance to standards will migrate to the United States so
that all our portable electronics uses the same port for charging and
data.

IMHO, the following should all use a standard-sized power/data port:
1. Cellphones
2. Earbuds
3. GPS
4. Cameras
5. Disks





My Mio C520 already does this.

It's interesting that so few cameras can even do in-camera charging of
batteries. My old Canon G2 could do it, the Kodak I got for my mom (with
a dock) could charge the Kodak proprietary dual NiMH AA pack, but few
current models charge internally via either a proprietary or USB
charger. Some of the toy Oregon Scientific cameras could charge via USB.
What other current cameras have this capability?

For the cheaper cameras with AA batteries it's not really practical
because the camera would have to detect the type of batteries and decide
whether it's a rechargeable or a disposable before charging. So you're
adding costs to the camera for more sophisticated circuitry (but at
least the USB jack) is already there. Charging a pair of 2500mA AA cells
would take about 5 hours at 5V/500mA, while you can do it in 1/5 that
time with a fast charger. You also have the issue that the AA batteries
don't give you all that many pictures per charge and users like to swap
them out and have one set charging while they're using the other set. I
made the mistake of taking one of my Canon P&S AA cameras (A570IS) on a
3 day backpacking trip rather than the SD800IS, and was taking batteries
out of flashlights to get through the trip, I had forgotten how poorly
AA batteries performed and thought the Energizer Lithiums would last
longer than they did.

For higher end P&S cameras with Li-Ion batteries you don't have the
chargeable/disposable problem, but you still have the long charge time
problem, though since a Li-Ion battery will give most people at least a
days worth of photos, you can charge overnight where time isn't a big
factor.

"Paul Bartram" paul.bartram AT OR NEAR lizzy.com.au wrote:
They should start with the common household power supply then. Different
voltages and different pin configurations depending on where you are in the
world. I have to use a clunky converter to make my Coolpix battery charger
fit an Australian power socket!

Never going to happen. After all, while 99% of the world's countries
agree on how to measure things like distance or volume or power there is
one that steadfastly insists on doing it different. And that is just for
virtual items, i.e. numbers that are printed on paper.

Now imagine doing that for real things that exist in physical form like
plugs and sockets.

Never ever going to happen.

jue

On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:50:36 -0700, SMS wrote:

For the cheaper cameras with AA batteries it's not really practical
because the camera would have to detect the type of batteries and decide
whether it's a rechargeable or a disposable before charging. So you're
adding costs to the camera for more sophisticated circuitry

Nonsense. There are many inexpensive chargers (about $15 or so)
that autodetect the type of AA cell. Considering that $15 includes
the store and the manufacturer's profit, the chip used in the
charger probably costs less than $1.00, even with the relatively low
sales volume of chargers. For the much more expensive cameras, the
extra cost of this chip would be negligible.


Charging a pair of 2500mA AA cells would take about 5 hours at
5V/500mA, while you can do it in 1/5 that time with a fast charger.

Wrong again. Charging is not 100% efficient and even the dullest
battery "expert" should know this, as well as the industry rule of
thumb that the real charging time is about 1.4 times the theoretical
time which would make it 7, not 5 hours to charge your 2500mA cells.

You also have the issue that the AA batteries don't give you all that
many pictures per charge and users like to swap them out and have
one set charging while they're using the other set. I made the mistake
of taking one of my Canon P&S AA cameras (A570IS) on a 3 day
backpacking trip rather than the SD800IS, and was taking batteries
out of flashlights to get through the trip, I had forgotten how poorly
AA batteries performed and thought the Energizer Lithiums would last
longer than they did.

More nonsense, and you've been spouting this for claptrap for so
many years that it's pretty obvious that you think nothing of lying.
Repeatedly. What is it with your pro Li-Ion, anti-AA obsession?
The A570 IS has *better* battery life than the SD800 IS, 400 shots
per charge versus 270 for the SD800. But this is using the standard
CIPA test that uses the flash for many shots at full power as well
as the LCD display. On a backpacking trip it's much less likely
that you'd use the flash, and since another of your often stated
"must have" features is a viewfinder, you could even use alkaline AA
cells to get 400 shots per pair of alkalines according to Canon.
Lithiums would probably get you much closer to 1,000 shots.

Saying "I had forgotten how poorly AA batteries performed" is
another obvious lie. Do you expect anyone to believe that you'd
forget what you've stated hundreds of time? You have your own
"battery" website dedicated to proving the inferiority of AA cells
vs. Li-Ion batteries. In fact, your website still repeats the
whopper you first told us here a couple of years ago, that the A570
IS gets only 10 shot per pair of fresh alkaline batteries.

Alkaline batteries should be used only as a last resort in digital
cameras because they are unable to deliver the high peak currents
that most digital cameras require. I didn't realize just how bad
alkaline batteries were until I lent an AA powered camera (Canon
A570IS) to a relative that tried to use alkaline AA batteries while
on a cruise. She reported getting about ten pictures per set of
batteries. When I inquired if this was normal on rec.photo.digital
I got a slew of responses and every one of them reported similar
results with alkaline batteries.

http://batterydata.com/

Another falsehood. Most of the replies reported the opposite. If
there was even one reply that reported similar results it would
*not* have been with the A570 or a similar camera, but with a camera
that was *many* years older, when battery life was a serious problem
with some poorly designed cameras. You repeated the "10 shots" claim
several times and said that when your relative returned from the
trip you'd check out the A570. You *never* told us what you found,
but it's virtually impossible that the camera performed that poorly,
unless your relative was so clueless that she used really cheap
non-alkaline batteries and also (as is so typical of clueless
photographers) had the camera set to fire the flash for all shots,
even daytime landscapes. And then months after that you not only
reported that the A570 IS was on sale (at Sears, I believe, "get 'em
while you can"), you bought another A570 not long after that. Not
very likely if the camera only got 10 shots per set of alkalines.


For higher end P&S cameras with Li-Ion batteries you don't have the
chargeable/disposable problem, but you still have the long charge time
problem, though since a Li-Ion battery will give most people at least a
days worth of photos, you can charge overnight where time isn't a big
factor.

What's a "days worth of photos"? If it's a couple hundred shots,
I have several cameras that can get about that many shots every day
for a week from NiMH rechargeables, and more than enough from
alkalines to have one set last for your entire three day outing.
The worst would last for two days per charge. If you bring your own
AA charger, you know that they're available with all kinds of
recharge time capabilities, from very slow chargers to models that
take less than an hour or less to charge.

Strongbox wrote:

It would be great if our congressmen had the same balls as the EU.
Unfortunately there is much money to be had selling custom interface
devices for power and data ports. US manufacturers have strong lobbys.

There are probably no U.S. manufacturers of these devices, and the
manufacturers would probable welcome some standardization. They make
very little selling extra power supplies or cables.

It would take more different power ports than many people realize to
cover the many different voltages and currents needed for different
devices, just as it would take more different "standard" Li-Ion packs
than many people realize, unless they go to an "intelligent
charger/power port" approach.

The way it should work is for an industry group (to avoid anti-trust
issues) to come up with a standard, using a smart charger that
negotiates with the device for the proper current and voltage. But that
would add cost versus the super-cheap power adapters we have now.

As to USB charging, it works okay for things like phones, where the 3.7V
Li-Ion batteries are usually well under 1000mAH. As I pointed out
earlier, charging two 2500mAH AA batteries from a 500mA USB port would
take longer than many people are willing to tolerate. Remember, two
2500mA AA batteries have a nominal volttage of 2.4V. To charge them from
a 5V/500mA USB port, with a DC-DC converter stepping the voltage down to
about 3V and the current up to around 750mA (allowing for the conversion
losses), you're going to take about 5 hours to charge them from fully
discharged (charging is not 100% efficient of course, more like 60-70%).
Of course since you usually won't be charging them from fully
discharged, the time will be more like 3-4 hours, so it might be
acceptable, but nothing like the present fast chargers. Since the
"charge one battery while using the other battery" seems to be desirable
for digital cameras, I don't think there's any rush to add several
dollars of cost for a feature that few people care about. With USB 3.0's
higher current, it becomes a little more practical to use the USB port
as a power port.

Almost no standard AA powered or Li-Ion cameras have internal charging
capability from USB(actually I don't know of a single one!), though
there have been cameras with internal chargers that were not USB based.
The manufacturer would rather not spend anything extra for internal
charging circuitry, as well as the circuitry to detect a rechargeable
NiMH cell versus a lithium or alkaline cell, and be responsible for any
problems. The way Kodak did the internal charging was that their
proprietary two NiMH cell pack is physically different than two AA
batteries.

I added some information about USB charging the battery data web site.

Let's keep congress out of this please.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

In article , SMS
wrote:

There are probably no U.S. manufacturers of these devices, and the
manufacturers would probable welcome some standardization. They make
very little selling extra power supplies or cables.

Apple makes a healthy profit selling such things.

As to USB charging, it works okay for things like phones, where the 3.7V
Li-Ion batteries are usually well under 1000mAH. As I pointed out
earlier, charging two 2500mAH AA batteries from a 500mA USB port would
take longer than many people are willing to tolerate.

Its a good job the USB charger spec allows upto 1.5A supplies.

--
Barry
http://www.netbox.com/barry
------
(I should put something down here).

Barry Twycross wrote:

Its a good job the USB charger spec allows upto 1.5A supplies.

Yes, this is true. But how many notebooks or desktops or hubs have those
high current ports yet? I have one tablet with one, but it was pre-USB
charger spec and it was to enable the use of an external DVD drive back
when you couldn't get by with 500mA, and you couldn't plug the drive
into a normal USB port (the connector on the tablet had a key hole off
to the side, and the cable from the DVD had a corresponding key.

But as long as you can charge from any USB port, albeit at a slower rate
than a dedicated USB charger, it'd be an improvement.

On digital cameras with Li-Ion packs, you get a very small, relatively
high rate charger with an integral flip out AC plug. To me, this is more
convenient than a USB adapter plugged directly into the camera since I
don't have to tie up the camera while charging. For cameras, USB
charging may be an answer to a question nobody asked, while for phones
it should be a legal requirement.