Is there an alternative to Scala?

I doubt Ilford would be interested due to the low demand for a specialty
film like this. The one thing that will keep Ilford going is concentrating
on a smaller volume of higher demand products. The end of Agfa and Kodak's
exit from the B&W paper business will certainly help keep Ilford around for
longer than may have been possible with all three players in the market.

"Peter Chant" wrote in message
...
UC wrote:

Are there alternatives to Scala?

No. It was unique.

Well, if Agfa film production is no more would someone there do the decent
thing and give it to Ilford?

Very doubtful, but it would be nice.

--
http://www.petezilla.co.uk

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:29:45 +0000, Peter Chant
wrote:
....

Are there alternatives to Scala?

1. Kodak Reversal Kit as mentioned above for TMX.

2. dr5 http://www.dr5.com/main.html

3. Photographers Formulary's TMX & TMY reversal kit.

http://www.photoformulary.com/Deskto...rch=re versal

There are probably more.......

In article ,
Ron Todd wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:29:45 +0000, Peter Chant
wrote:
...

Are there alternatives to Scala?

1. Kodak Reversal Kit as mentioned above for TMX.

2. dr5 http://www.dr5.com/main.html

3. Photographers Formulary's TMX & TMY reversal kit.

I am not entirely sure how to calibrate these development systems, but
here's the set of black and white reversal formulae I have. I believe
they should work with almost *any* modern film if appropriately calibrated;
my understanding is that in the past they were restricted to the films
with the thinnest emulsions, but all modern films are at least on a par
with the emulsion thickness of Panatomic-X, which was the old film
preferred for reversal.

I'm sure there's something on calibrating black and white reversal systems
for different films in the published literature. Richard, maybe you know?

The text below here (not quoted because it's indented all wrong, partially
with tabs and partially with spaces) is an old article by Ron Spiers.

In article (Andreas Locicero) writes:
In article , (Ajay Shah)
writes:

Now, after having had a lot of fun with a Nikon 6006 shooting (color)
slides, I'd like to try my hand at B&W slides. What would you suggest
for film? How is it processed? Would Kodalux-as-usual work?

What words of wisdom would you like to contribute on shooting B&W
slides for the first time after having done lots of color slides?

Ajay Shah, (213)749-8133,
As far as I know, no one makes a black and white slide film anymore. You must
shoot a negative film and process it specially for reversal to get black and
white slides. This means doing the processing yourself or trying to find a pro
lab willing to do it for you.

I saw a reference in this newsgroup to processing Tmax for reversal, I an I
have some experience with processing Panatomic X this way years ago. Kodak
makes kits for such things Look in better camera stores.

A.J. LoCicero


Here is how black-and-white reversal processing works:

The First Developer is an ordinary high contrast negative developer with
a silver solvent (sodium thiocyanate or sodium thiosulfate) added to remove
just enough silver to produce clear highlights. The film is then rinsed.
The Bleach (potassium dichromate with sulfuric acid or sodium bisulfate)
removes the *developed* negative image from the film, but leaves the
*undeveloped* silver halides intact. The film is rinsed again and goes
to a Clearing Bath (sodium sulfite) which neutralizes any remaining bleach.
Then the film is either exposed to light or fogged chemically, which
makes the remaining undeveloped silver halides developable. A Second
Developer, essentially the same as the first developer without the
halide solvent, develops the remaining "positive" image. This is followed
by a standard fixer, wash, dry.

Since the image is composed of the same kind of developed silver halides
as in a negative-processed film, I would expect the grain and archival
properties to be the same.

There are several B&W films which can be processed to yield positives
(slides). Unfortunately, the most common, Panatomic X, is discontinued.
However, two other thin-film emulsion films should work as well: Ilford
Pan F and Agfapan 25. Kodak Technical Pan and T-Max 100 will also work
with the appropriate developer. Following are recipes for 4 developers
and other solutions. The first two, Kodak D-67 and Z-7 were for the Pan-X
film, and should be used for Pan F and Agfapan. The next two are for
Tech Pan and T-Max. I tried T-Max 100 film in the Z-7 developer; it didn't
look too good, so I would recommend that you stick with the developer
listed.

As far as the other solutions go, I cannot explain the differences in
the formulas. Since the bleach and second developer reactions go to
completion, I really don't think that the different formulas would make
much difference. I would discourage the use of Sulfuric Acid in the bleach
because it is hazardous and hard for a private person to obtain. The
Sodium Bisulfate works just as well. Also, I wouldn't bother with the
FD-70a redeveloper; it only lasts an hour once mixed and light reversal
is easy enough and much cheaper.

FIRST DEVELOPER
Kodak D67 Z-7 Tech Pan T-Max

Metol (Elon) 2.0 g 4.0 g 2.0 g
Phenidone 0.25 g
Sodium Sulfite 90 g 34 g 25 g 100 g
Hydroquinone 8 g 5.6 g 5.0 g 5.0 g
Sodium Carbonate Mono 52 g 36 g 30 g 60 g
Potassium Bromide 5 g 1.6 g 2.0 g 4.0 g
Benzotriazole 0.25 g .03 g
Sodium Thiosulfate Penta 16 g
Sodium Thiocyanate 51% 3.0 mL 4.0 mL 3.0 mL
Potassium Iodide 0.1% 10 mL
Water to make 1 L 1 L 1 L 1 L
Time 8 min 6 min 10 min 10 min
Temperature F 68 68 75 68


BLEACH

Potassium Dichromate 9.5 g 11 g 9.5 g 9.5 g
Sodium Bisulfate 22.9 g 66 g
Sulfuric Acid 12 mL 12 mL
Water to make 1 L 1 L 1 L 1 L

CLEAR BATH

Sodium Sulfite 90 g 34 g 90 g 50 g
Water to make 1 L 1 L 1 L 1 L

SECOND DEVELOPER
FD-70a Same as D-19 Dektol 1:2
First Dev
without
Thiocyanate

FIXER F-5 or Usual F-5 Usual film
F-6 Film Fixer Fixer

Processing Schedule

First Developer See times under formulas
Rinse 2 minutes
Bleach 2-3 minutes
Rinse 1 minute
Clear Bath 1.5-2 minutes
Rinse 1-2 minutes
Re-exposure 30-60 seconds each side
Second Developer 3-4 minutes
Rinse 30-60 seconds
Fixer Normal time for fixer used
Wash Appropriate time for fixer used, 10-20 minutes
Photo-flo Wash
Dry

__________________________________________________ _________________
Agitation in the solutions should be 5 seconds of every 30 seconds.
Re-exposure to light renders the remaining silver developable. The use of
stainless steel or clear plastic processing reels makes it possible to
re-expose the film while on the reel. Optimum re-exposure is about 800
foot-candle seconds, but the amount of re-exposure is not critical. Both
sides of the reel should be exposed for 30-60 seconds to a 60 or 75 watt
bulb at 12 to 18 inches. The reel should be rotated constantly during
re-exposure. A 30 to 40 second exposure to a 40 watt fluorescent tube at
2 to 4 inches can also be used. No variation in density will be apparent
until these exposure values are changed to about 1/10 or 10 times the
given amounts.

As can be seen from the formulas, the steps following the first developer
are not too critical; although the clear bath should not exceed 2 minutes.
Also, room light is OK after the bleach step. I shot Pan-X (developed
in D-67 or Z-7) at ISO 80-100. A similar modification in speed would
be expected for Pan F or Agfapan 25. My source for T-Max indicates
ISO 100. The Tech Pan was rated at ISO 40. My sources also indicate that
D-67 can be made by adding 3 mL of Sodium Thiocyanate 51% to D-19 developer.

If anyone decides to try these formulas, be sure to shoot a test roll first
and bracket to find optimum exposure. Since you will get a positive, follow
the exposure rules as for color slide film: More exposure = lighter, less
dense image; less exposure = darker, denser image.

I have not tried the Ilford XP-1 or XP-2 in E-6; you would get a positive
image, but I remember reading an article that said the results weren't too
great.

(P.S. I saw a T-Max reversal kit in the local photo store for $30. I
think this price is unjustified knowing what approximately what is in the
kit (the main ingredients are on the box). Their older reversal kit for
Pan-X was only $15.)

Ron Speirs, Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah


--
Thor Lancelot Simon

"We cannot usually in social life pursue a single value or a single moral
aim, untroubled by the need to compromise with others." - H.L.A. Hart

Thor --

Your list looks pretty good. Richard has posted a bunch of reversal
formulae to this group in the past, which a Google Groups search
should easily turn up.

I am using a variation on the Ilford method, based on Ilford PQ
Universal (appropriately diluted) with added sodium thiosulfate. With
the appropriate optimization, I think most paper developers could be
used as the basis for B&W reversal first developers.

Instead of re-exposure and re-development, I use a chemical
redevelopment step. I use an alkaline solution of thiourea, which is
essentially the "toner" part of an odourless sepia toner kit. You can
use old-fashioned sepia toner (alkaline solution of sodium sulfide)
for this purpose too if the smell doesn't bother you. I find that the
thiourea treatment gives the resulting slides a very nice warm
brown-black tone (with FP4+ and Pan-F+ -- with TMAX the tone is sickly
yellow). I go straight to the final wash after this treatment -- I
believe that the toning step is thorough enough that fixing is not
necessary.

There are also chemical foggants that give a neutral black tone. They
are harder to come by and I have no experience with them.

More info on B&W slides here (including links):
http://www.photosensitive.ca/BWslides.shtml



Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
In article ,
Ron Todd wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:29:45 +0000, Peter Chant
wrote:
...

Are there alternatives to Scala?
1. Kodak Reversal Kit as mentioned above for TMX.

2. dr5 http://www.dr5.com/main.html

3. Photographers Formulary's TMX & TMY reversal kit.

I am not entirely sure how to calibrate these development systems, but
here's the set of black and white reversal formulae I have. I believe
they should work with almost *any* modern film if appropriately calibrated;
my understanding is that in the past they were restricted to the films
with the thinnest emulsions, but all modern films are at least on a par
with the emulsion thickness of Panatomic-X, which was the old film
preferred for reversal.

I'm sure there's something on calibrating black and white reversal systems
for different films in the published literature. Richard, maybe you know?

The text below here (not quoted because it's indented all wrong, partially
with tabs and partially with spaces) is an old article by Ron Spiers.

In article (Andreas Locicero) writes:
In article , (Ajay Shah)
writes:
Now, after having had a lot of fun with a Nikon 6006 shooting (color)
slides, I'd like to try my hand at B&W slides. What would you suggest
for film? How is it processed? Would Kodalux-as-usual work?

What words of wisdom would you like to contribute on shooting B&W
slides for the first time after having done lots of color slides?

Ajay Shah, (213)749-8133,
As far as I know, no one makes a black and white slide film anymore. You must
shoot a negative film and process it specially for reversal to get black and
white slides. This means doing the processing yourself or trying to find a pro
lab willing to do it for you.

I saw a reference in this newsgroup to processing Tmax for reversal, I an I
have some experience with processing Panatomic X this way years ago. Kodak
makes kits for such things Look in better camera stores.

A.J. LoCicero


Here is how black-and-white reversal processing works:

The First Developer is an ordinary high contrast negative developer with
a silver solvent (sodium thiocyanate or sodium thiosulfate) added to remove
just enough silver to produce clear highlights. The film is then rinsed.
The Bleach (potassium dichromate with sulfuric acid or sodium bisulfate)
removes the *developed* negative image from the film, but leaves the
*undeveloped* silver halides intact. The film is rinsed again and goes
to a Clearing Bath (sodium sulfite) which neutralizes any remaining bleach.
Then the film is either exposed to light or fogged chemically, which
makes the remaining undeveloped silver halides developable. A Second
Developer, essentially the same as the first developer without the
halide solvent, develops the remaining "positive" image. This is followed
by a standard fixer, wash, dry.

Since the image is composed of the same kind of developed silver halides
as in a negative-processed film, I would expect the grain and archival
properties to be the same.

There are several B&W films which can be processed to yield positives
(slides). Unfortunately, the most common, Panatomic X, is discontinued.
However, two other thin-film emulsion films should work as well: Ilford
Pan F and Agfapan 25. Kodak Technical Pan and T-Max 100 will also work
with the appropriate developer. Following are recipes for 4 developers
and other solutions. The first two, Kodak D-67 and Z-7 were for the Pan-X
film, and should be used for Pan F and Agfapan. The next two are for
Tech Pan and T-Max. I tried T-Max 100 film in the Z-7 developer; it didn't
look too good, so I would recommend that you stick with the developer
listed.

As far as the other solutions go, I cannot explain the differences in
the formulas. Since the bleach and second developer reactions go to
completion, I really don't think that the different formulas would make
much difference. I would discourage the use of Sulfuric Acid in the bleach
because it is hazardous and hard for a private person to obtain. The
Sodium Bisulfate works just as well. Also, I wouldn't bother with the
FD-70a redeveloper; it only lasts an hour once mixed and light reversal
is easy enough and much cheaper.

FIRST DEVELOPER
Kodak D67 Z-7 Tech Pan T-Max

Metol (Elon) 2.0 g 4.0 g 2.0 g
Phenidone 0.25 g
Sodium Sulfite 90 g 34 g 25 g 100 g
Hydroquinone 8 g 5.6 g 5.0 g 5.0 g
Sodium Carbonate Mono 52 g 36 g 30 g 60 g
Potassium Bromide 5 g 1.6 g 2.0 g 4.0 g
Benzotriazole 0.25 g .03 g
Sodium Thiosulfate Penta 16 g
Sodium Thiocyanate 51% 3.0 mL 4.0 mL 3.0 mL
Potassium Iodide 0.1% 10 mL
Water to make 1 L 1 L 1 L 1 L
Time 8 min 6 min 10 min 10 min
Temperature F 68 68 75 68


BLEACH

Potassium Dichromate 9.5 g 11 g 9.5 g 9.5 g
Sodium Bisulfate 22.9 g 66 g
Sulfuric Acid 12 mL 12 mL
Water to make 1 L 1 L 1 L 1 L

CLEAR BATH

Sodium Sulfite 90 g 34 g 90 g 50 g
Water to make 1 L 1 L 1 L 1 L

SECOND DEVELOPER
FD-70a Same as D-19 Dektol 1:2
First Dev
without
Thiocyanate

FIXER F-5 or Usual F-5 Usual film
F-6 Film Fixer Fixer

Processing Schedule

First Developer See times under formulas
Rinse 2 minutes
Bleach 2-3 minutes
Rinse 1 minute
Clear Bath 1.5-2 minutes
Rinse 1-2 minutes
Re-exposure 30-60 seconds each side
Second Developer 3-4 minutes
Rinse 30-60 seconds
Fixer Normal time for fixer used
Wash Appropriate time for fixer used, 10-20 minutes
Photo-flo Wash
Dry

__________________________________________________ _________________
Agitation in the solutions should be 5 seconds of every 30 seconds.
Re-exposure to light renders the remaining silver developable. The use of
stainless steel or clear plastic processing reels makes it possible to
re-expose the film while on the reel. Optimum re-exposure is about 800
foot-candle seconds, but the amount of re-exposure is not critical. Both
sides of the reel should be exposed for 30-60 seconds to a 60 or 75 watt
bulb at 12 to 18 inches. The reel should be rotated constantly during
re-exposure. A 30 to 40 second exposure to a 40 watt fluorescent tube at
2 to 4 inches can also be used. No variation in density will be apparent
until these exposure values are changed to about 1/10 or 10 times the
given amounts.

As can be seen from the formulas, the steps following the first developer
are not too critical; although the clear bath should not exceed 2 minutes.
Also, room light is OK after the bleach step. I shot Pan-X (developed
in D-67 or Z-7) at ISO 80-100. A similar modification in speed would
be expected for Pan F or Agfapan 25. My source for T-Max indicates
ISO 100. The Tech Pan was rated at ISO 40. My sources also indicate that
D-67 can be made by adding 3 mL of Sodium Thiocyanate 51% to D-19 developer.

If anyone decides to try these formulas, be sure to shoot a test roll first
and bracket to find optimum exposure. Since you will get a positive, follow
the exposure rules as for color slide film: More exposure = lighter, less
dense image; less exposure = darker, denser image.

I have not tried the Ilford XP-1 or XP-2 in E-6; you would get a positive
image, but I remember reading an article that said the results weren't too
great.

(P.S. I saw a T-Max reversal kit in the local photo store for $30. I
think this price is unjustified knowing what approximately what is in the
kit (the main ingredients are on the box). Their older reversal kit for
Pan-X was only $15.)

Ron Speirs, Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah

Is the dr.5 lab still around? http://www.dr5.com/main.html
They offer reversal processing options for a lot of films.

Additionally the Ilford website has a pdf for reversal processing at
http://www.ilford.com/html/us_englis...versal_web.pdf

I've used the Kodak Kit (back before it was labeled TMax.

Additionally I've produced black and white slides with a home-brew formula
(I have the formula somewhere, got it when I took a course in Biological
photography way back when) and by projection printing negatives onto Kodak
positive stock processed in Dektol.

They all work fine depending on your needs and expectations.

--
darkroommike

"Peter Chant" wrote in message
...
Everyone has been talking about Rodinal, and from the discussions its
certainly not the end of the world if you are a Rondinal fan, but I've not
seen many comments about film.

I've only shot one roll of Scala, quite an interesting experience. My own
attempts at reversal processing were poor, so if tempted again to do B&W
slide Scala would have been my best option.

Are there alternatives to Scala?


--
http://www.petezilla.co.uk

Ron Todd wrote:

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:29:45 +0000, Peter Chant
wrote:
...

Are there alternatives to Scala?

1. Kodak Reversal Kit as mentioned above for TMX.

2. dr5 http://www.dr5.com/main.html

3. Photographers Formulary's TMX & TMY reversal kit.


http://www.photoformulary.com/Deskto...rch=re versal

There are probably more.......


Cheers.

However I was looking at UK based solutions. Primary Colour who process
Scala are doing if for only a few more weeks and don't do reveral
processing otherwise.

My own efforts have been poor.

It looks like the Fomopan R is the choice of film but I need to look again
into my own processing.

I just did not manage to do a good job with the Speediebrews kit.

Actually, on reflection I've just looked at my second attempt with
Speediebrews Celerea reversa. It's actually not so bad. Only one or two
frames have staining (probally more washing needed). Probally not the most
exciting subject either. Perhaps a re-try with Fomopan R (for a clear
film base) might be in order.

Pete


--
http://www.petezilla.co.uk

In article ,
Jordan W. wrote:

There are also chemical foggants that give a neutral black tone. They
are harder to come by and I have no experience with them.

The "FD-70a" referred to in the message I posted should be one such, I
think -- but I don't think the formula's given.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon

"We cannot usually in social life pursue a single value or a single moral
aim, untroubled by the need to compromise with others." - H.L.A. Hart

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 04:47:29 +0000 (UTC), (Thor Lancelot
Simon) wrote:

There are several B&W films which can be processed to yield positives
(slides). Unfortunately, the most common, Panatomic X, is discontinued.
However, two other thin-film emulsion films should work as well: Ilford
Pan F and Agfapan 25.

Good luck in finding the Agfapan 25 !

Peter Chant wrote:

Are there alternatives to Scala?

From what I've read in the newsgroup, you have to use a film reversal kit.
Unfortunately for me, I am not a darkroom guy, I liked the convenience of
shooting Scala and leaving it at the counter for processing..
I hope that some company will re-start Scala, or something like that.

N.F.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:29:45 +0000, Peter Chant
wrote:

Everyone has been talking about Rodinal, and from the discussions its
certainly not the end of the world if you are a Rondinal fan, but I've not

i still haven't tried --also because finding "prime" chemicals here in
italy is almost impossible and importing them from abroad is even
harder--, but ilford has a nice paper about how to reverse delta100 or
panf.

results are said to be nice.

regards,
--
Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com