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Leaf Shutter questions for project camera



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 9th 04, 09:55 PM
Gordon Moat
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"David J. Littleboy" wrote:

"Bob Monaghan" wrote:

Hasselblad Hyper-wide 17mm? ;-)

And yes, I am still looking locally for those 17mm ultrawide cheapy
disposable truely panoramic cameras so I can salvage the lens and see how
much it covers, and how well? ;-) Now that would be a fun lens to try on
MF, even if a circular fisheye on 6x6cm, it has its own shutter already
;-) just build a shim with rubber bands to hold it onto a hassy 12 back
(with easy to advance peephole back) and you have a really different
"hasselblad" hyper-wide 17mm ;-)


http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/33533884/large

While you guys are talking, some of us are out taking pictures: stitching
two frames together isn't all that much of a pain.


I know . . . I have been doing that a bit. One way is to shift this same lens
on 35 mm body in one direction and take one shot, then shift it the opposite
direction and take the second shot. Both frames then overlap a bit, and I run
them through Panorama Maker 3, and clean up in PhotoShop. Not a bad solution,
though it restricts one to a tripod only shot.

I would like to be out doing more pictures at the moment, even for work. This
little project takes up very little time. Unfortunately, I am working on a
music CD package currently, so most of my time is on print design currently. I
have a few exhibits coming up, and no images prepared yet, so that is the next
photography opportunity.

Lunch hour, or late at night, I like the little break of this project, and
this news group. You guys are a great wealth of knowledge.

Glad to here you are out taking more pictures. Thanks for sharing the nice
image.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html Updated!

  #22  
Old September 9th 04, 10:25 PM
Gordon Moat
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Good afternoon,

Dan Fromm wrote:

. . . . . . . . To answer y'r question re shutters, there's nothing wrong with Ilex
shutters except that they have a low marked top speed that few
actually attain. The Ilex Universal is self-cocking, nominal top
speed usually 1/100; the Ilex Acme is cock-and-shoot, nominal top
speed 1/150 or 1/200, I've seen both.


Okay, I think 1/125 and f2.8 on ISO 100 film is near EV 10, which is not bad. I have the 52
mm filter mount on the Nikkor, which allows for mounting ND filters. Hand held shooting at
even 1/30 is not bad, though obviously a tripod taken shot would be clearer.



But and however, many of the used Ilex Universals, especially #3s,
came from oscilloscope cameras. O'scope camera Ilexes are usually NOT
threaded externally at the rear.


Thanks so much for that. I was wondering why I have seen some like that. While it might be
okay if I remove material from the shutter, it would be tougher if I wanted to use the
threads for mounting.

They can be used with front-mounted
lenses, but can't be put on board with a lens in shutter. Putting on
board requires an externally threaded flange that screws into the back
of the shutter and clamps the board between itself and the shutter.
The flange's inner diameter is what will matter for vignetting by the
shutter.


I found specifications for the Ilex #3, and it seems that if I reverse mounted it, then it
would better avoid vignetting. It looks like it would block the 82 mm width, though it should
all around 74 mm. Another possibility is machining to open it up, or remove some material.

Another headache with 'scope camera Ilexes is that they all
seem to need to be overhauled.


I am sort of expecting that. So far, I have ten folder camera shutter that I have overhauled,
and all now work perfectly.



Rapaxes are not sized to the modern Compur/Prontor/Copal standard.
Neither are Alphaxes or Betaxes or Ilexes. My choice for
front-mounting is the Copal #1. Ex-Polaroid MP-4 #1 Press is the
nicest of the inexpensive lot, but top speed is only 1/125.


I am still looking at those, though the maximum Iris is smaller than with the Ilex #3.
Another camera that got me started on this was an NPC Polaroid camera that took Nikon lenses.
The mount was a Nikon bayonet placed into a Copal #3. These are somewhat rare cameras, though
the idea of the mounting made one workable solution. A similar set-up, maybe with Ilex #4,
could be used on an aluminium plate going to a Mamiya RB67 back, and still make a hand
holdable camera. More complexity and expense, but it would work.

Generally
not too limiting, but for out-and-about shooting with my 47/5.6 SA in
#00 Prontor Press and ISO 100 film 1/125 has been very limiting.


On a bright day (EV 15 or brighter) only ND filters could help.


If you're looking for an inexpensive 6x9 camera that will take wide
angle lenses, just get a 2x3 Graphic. Century or 2x3 Crown, not
Speed. Don't screw around with doing it yourself, you'll end up with
something less flexible and more costly.


View cameras do allow much more options for image control. However, they are not as compact
and portable as the solution I would like to create. I already have the Nikkor shift lens,
and I have some extra 6x9 folder bodies. I also have access to some Sherline lathes and an 8
way mill, and I know how to use them. I have several blocks of left over aluminium from when
I was making custom parts for road racing motorcycles, so my only big expense would be a
shutter at this point.


If you're looking for an inexpensive w/a lens that will cover much, if
not all, of nominal 6x9, I don't think the PC Nikkor is what you want.
If using one were a good idea, we'd all do it.


Perhaps . . . I was wondering why I have not seen something like this. It is also important
to remember that a PC-Nikkor is not a cheap lens, even used. I agree with you that if someone
did not already own and use this lens, then this would not be a good project to get into.

Also, remember, the
Nikon F flange to film distance at infinity is 46.5 mm. This is very
limiting, leaves little room for a leaf shutter behind the lens.
Shutter in front of lens will vignette unless the shutter is enormous.


That is somewhat illustrated in this drawing:

http://www.allgstudio.com/support_files/PC-Nikkor_mount.jpg

I have a couple other working drawings with shutters of accurate dimensions. I have been
moving those around, to check the fitting, and see if any material would need to be removed
from the AGFA folder body. The Ilex #3 is about 86 mm diameter, which would involve trimming
to top and bottom edges of the AGFA body. The Ilex #4 (largest shutter considered) just fits
lengthways at about 102 mm diameter, and would require slightly more material be removed from
the AGFA body.



If you insist on trying, set y'r PC-Nikkor up on an improvised rig and
shoot before investing much in machining etc. Remember that
impressions of sharpness on a ground glass can mislead.


It does seem that way, just judging on ground glass. I think the initial testing will just be
lens cap shutter, and maybe a low light, or night exposure test. Obviously, getting a shutter
mounted will be much more complicated. The machining will only cost me some time, and maybe a
small amount of materials.

You want
reasonable sharpness to the edge; a test shot is the only way to find
out what the lens will do.


Agreed. I am not expecting a miracle, and I would even be happy with a smaller view, like
645. Also, since it would be so wide, and I want to use the final camera mostly hand held, I
will not be super critical of the results. It might just become another camera that I use
solely for fine art exhibit images, and not one that I use for any commercial work . . . but,
who knows . . . it might be interesting.



47/8 Ilex Acugons are in the same price range as 35/2.8 PC Nikkors,
cover around 123 mm. So do 47/8 SAs, which tend to be a little more
expensive.


I think it is really important to mention those lenses. Again, if someone did not already
have a Nikkor shift lens, then I think a true large format (or 6x9) wide lens would make a
better choice. It is still tempting to me to get one of these lenses, and graft it onto a
folder body; it would make a nice walk around camera.

Everything shorter that will cover the format is much more
expensive. Longer classic wide angles that will cover 2x3, e.g.,
65/6.8 Angulon, Raptar, Leitmeyr Weitwinkel/Aristostigmat, aren't too
expensive.


The Biogon thread got me started on this, then I saw the Nikon to Xpan adapter on EBAY; it
really got me thinking about this project. Strange stuff, but the idea is to have fun in a
small challenge. There is also no rush, and no time limit to get it done. If it turns out to
be an easy solution for me to make, I might even be tempted to make another one like it.



Good luck,

Dan


Thanks Dan for all the great information.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html Updated!


  #23  
Old September 9th 04, 10:25 PM
Gordon Moat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Good afternoon,

Dan Fromm wrote:

. . . . . . . . To answer y'r question re shutters, there's nothing wrong with Ilex
shutters except that they have a low marked top speed that few
actually attain. The Ilex Universal is self-cocking, nominal top
speed usually 1/100; the Ilex Acme is cock-and-shoot, nominal top
speed 1/150 or 1/200, I've seen both.


Okay, I think 1/125 and f2.8 on ISO 100 film is near EV 10, which is not bad. I have the 52
mm filter mount on the Nikkor, which allows for mounting ND filters. Hand held shooting at
even 1/30 is not bad, though obviously a tripod taken shot would be clearer.



But and however, many of the used Ilex Universals, especially #3s,
came from oscilloscope cameras. O'scope camera Ilexes are usually NOT
threaded externally at the rear.


Thanks so much for that. I was wondering why I have seen some like that. While it might be
okay if I remove material from the shutter, it would be tougher if I wanted to use the
threads for mounting.

They can be used with front-mounted
lenses, but can't be put on board with a lens in shutter. Putting on
board requires an externally threaded flange that screws into the back
of the shutter and clamps the board between itself and the shutter.
The flange's inner diameter is what will matter for vignetting by the
shutter.


I found specifications for the Ilex #3, and it seems that if I reverse mounted it, then it
would better avoid vignetting. It looks like it would block the 82 mm width, though it should
all around 74 mm. Another possibility is machining to open it up, or remove some material.

Another headache with 'scope camera Ilexes is that they all
seem to need to be overhauled.


I am sort of expecting that. So far, I have ten folder camera shutter that I have overhauled,
and all now work perfectly.



Rapaxes are not sized to the modern Compur/Prontor/Copal standard.
Neither are Alphaxes or Betaxes or Ilexes. My choice for
front-mounting is the Copal #1. Ex-Polaroid MP-4 #1 Press is the
nicest of the inexpensive lot, but top speed is only 1/125.


I am still looking at those, though the maximum Iris is smaller than with the Ilex #3.
Another camera that got me started on this was an NPC Polaroid camera that took Nikon lenses.
The mount was a Nikon bayonet placed into a Copal #3. These are somewhat rare cameras, though
the idea of the mounting made one workable solution. A similar set-up, maybe with Ilex #4,
could be used on an aluminium plate going to a Mamiya RB67 back, and still make a hand
holdable camera. More complexity and expense, but it would work.

Generally
not too limiting, but for out-and-about shooting with my 47/5.6 SA in
#00 Prontor Press and ISO 100 film 1/125 has been very limiting.


On a bright day (EV 15 or brighter) only ND filters could help.


If you're looking for an inexpensive 6x9 camera that will take wide
angle lenses, just get a 2x3 Graphic. Century or 2x3 Crown, not
Speed. Don't screw around with doing it yourself, you'll end up with
something less flexible and more costly.


View cameras do allow much more options for image control. However, they are not as compact
and portable as the solution I would like to create. I already have the Nikkor shift lens,
and I have some extra 6x9 folder bodies. I also have access to some Sherline lathes and an 8
way mill, and I know how to use them. I have several blocks of left over aluminium from when
I was making custom parts for road racing motorcycles, so my only big expense would be a
shutter at this point.


If you're looking for an inexpensive w/a lens that will cover much, if
not all, of nominal 6x9, I don't think the PC Nikkor is what you want.
If using one were a good idea, we'd all do it.


Perhaps . . . I was wondering why I have not seen something like this. It is also important
to remember that a PC-Nikkor is not a cheap lens, even used. I agree with you that if someone
did not already own and use this lens, then this would not be a good project to get into.

Also, remember, the
Nikon F flange to film distance at infinity is 46.5 mm. This is very
limiting, leaves little room for a leaf shutter behind the lens.
Shutter in front of lens will vignette unless the shutter is enormous.


That is somewhat illustrated in this drawing:

http://www.allgstudio.com/support_files/PC-Nikkor_mount.jpg

I have a couple other working drawings with shutters of accurate dimensions. I have been
moving those around, to check the fitting, and see if any material would need to be removed
from the AGFA folder body. The Ilex #3 is about 86 mm diameter, which would involve trimming
to top and bottom edges of the AGFA body. The Ilex #4 (largest shutter considered) just fits
lengthways at about 102 mm diameter, and would require slightly more material be removed from
the AGFA body.



If you insist on trying, set y'r PC-Nikkor up on an improvised rig and
shoot before investing much in machining etc. Remember that
impressions of sharpness on a ground glass can mislead.


It does seem that way, just judging on ground glass. I think the initial testing will just be
lens cap shutter, and maybe a low light, or night exposure test. Obviously, getting a shutter
mounted will be much more complicated. The machining will only cost me some time, and maybe a
small amount of materials.

You want
reasonable sharpness to the edge; a test shot is the only way to find
out what the lens will do.


Agreed. I am not expecting a miracle, and I would even be happy with a smaller view, like
645. Also, since it would be so wide, and I want to use the final camera mostly hand held, I
will not be super critical of the results. It might just become another camera that I use
solely for fine art exhibit images, and not one that I use for any commercial work . . . but,
who knows . . . it might be interesting.



47/8 Ilex Acugons are in the same price range as 35/2.8 PC Nikkors,
cover around 123 mm. So do 47/8 SAs, which tend to be a little more
expensive.


I think it is really important to mention those lenses. Again, if someone did not already
have a Nikkor shift lens, then I think a true large format (or 6x9) wide lens would make a
better choice. It is still tempting to me to get one of these lenses, and graft it onto a
folder body; it would make a nice walk around camera.

Everything shorter that will cover the format is much more
expensive. Longer classic wide angles that will cover 2x3, e.g.,
65/6.8 Angulon, Raptar, Leitmeyr Weitwinkel/Aristostigmat, aren't too
expensive.


The Biogon thread got me started on this, then I saw the Nikon to Xpan adapter on EBAY; it
really got me thinking about this project. Strange stuff, but the idea is to have fun in a
small challenge. There is also no rush, and no time limit to get it done. If it turns out to
be an easy solution for me to make, I might even be tempted to make another one like it.



Good luck,

Dan


Thanks Dan for all the great information.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html Updated!


  #24  
Old September 9th 04, 10:34 PM
jjs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gordon Moat" wrote in message
...

Uh, you nudged a couple of my brain cells. I have Nikon and Leica-S body
mounts and a few LF shutters. Sounds like a project.


  #25  
Old September 9th 04, 10:34 PM
jjs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gordon Moat" wrote in message
...

Uh, you nudged a couple of my brain cells. I have Nikon and Leica-S body
mounts and a few LF shutters. Sounds like a project.


  #26  
Old September 9th 04, 11:04 PM
Gordon Moat
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Posts: n/a
Default

jjs wrote:

"Gordon Moat" wrote in message
...

Uh, you nudged a couple of my brain cells. I have Nikon and Leica-S body
mounts and a few LF shutters. Sounds like a project.


If you are really, really, really curious, I can upload some EPS files for
you. Those are the mock-up files I am using in Adobe Illustrator to
investigate spacing and dimensions. I could also e-mail them to you.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html Updated!

  #27  
Old September 9th 04, 11:04 PM
Gordon Moat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

jjs wrote:

"Gordon Moat" wrote in message
...

Uh, you nudged a couple of my brain cells. I have Nikon and Leica-S body
mounts and a few LF shutters. Sounds like a project.


If you are really, really, really curious, I can upload some EPS files for
you. Those are the mock-up files I am using in Adobe Illustrator to
investigate spacing and dimensions. I could also e-mail them to you.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html Updated!

  #28  
Old September 10th 04, 12:36 AM
Bob Monaghan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/polaroidtest.html polaroid lens specs by
models, hacking EE100s range and so on. there are some hacker's guides to
the polaroid cameras (SX-70..) online. Most of them have very simple light
meter controls, easy to rework, replacing CdS sensor with potentiometer of
desired range, or ND filters over sensor, and so on (typically
lighten-darken is a 2 1/2 stop range on many models). I picked up a
captiva awhile back to do some hacking, but turned up a bellows leak, so
now a parts camera. But the idea of replacing the polaroid film holder
with a MF back, creating a compact autofocus MF camera, was a passing
interest ;-) Ditto, I keep thinking of adapting a polaroid 250 style
camera to a 4x5" film holder, and ending up with an auto-exposure LF kit
that folds up into a jacket pocket ;-) (mf/budgetlf.html ;-).

So many ideas, so little time ;-)

grins bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************
  #29  
Old September 10th 04, 12:36 AM
Bob Monaghan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/polaroidtest.html polaroid lens specs by
models, hacking EE100s range and so on. there are some hacker's guides to
the polaroid cameras (SX-70..) online. Most of them have very simple light
meter controls, easy to rework, replacing CdS sensor with potentiometer of
desired range, or ND filters over sensor, and so on (typically
lighten-darken is a 2 1/2 stop range on many models). I picked up a
captiva awhile back to do some hacking, but turned up a bellows leak, so
now a parts camera. But the idea of replacing the polaroid film holder
with a MF back, creating a compact autofocus MF camera, was a passing
interest ;-) Ditto, I keep thinking of adapting a polaroid 250 style
camera to a 4x5" film holder, and ending up with an auto-exposure LF kit
that folds up into a jacket pocket ;-) (mf/budgetlf.html ;-).

So many ideas, so little time ;-)

grins bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************
  #30  
Old September 10th 04, 12:36 AM
Bob Monaghan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/polaroidtest.html polaroid lens specs by
models, hacking EE100s range and so on. there are some hacker's guides to
the polaroid cameras (SX-70..) online. Most of them have very simple light
meter controls, easy to rework, replacing CdS sensor with potentiometer of
desired range, or ND filters over sensor, and so on (typically
lighten-darken is a 2 1/2 stop range on many models). I picked up a
captiva awhile back to do some hacking, but turned up a bellows leak, so
now a parts camera. But the idea of replacing the polaroid film holder
with a MF back, creating a compact autofocus MF camera, was a passing
interest ;-) Ditto, I keep thinking of adapting a polaroid 250 style
camera to a 4x5" film holder, and ending up with an auto-exposure LF kit
that folds up into a jacket pocket ;-) (mf/budgetlf.html ;-).

So many ideas, so little time ;-)

grins bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************
 




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