Will Nikon 8008 work with Lithium AAs?

William Graham wrote:

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:dTZRc.279457$XM6.95703@attbi_s53...

"C J D" wrote in message
...
Peter Chant wrote:

In article ,
Roger Halstead writes:

I would expect the initial "infush" current to be higher with
Lithium
batteries than regular. In many instances that probably isn't a
problem, but it could be.

Inrush currents are only normally an issue with transformers. Yes
there
could be a slightly higher current charging capcitors to an extra
200mV but that would be a trivial icrease in current which I could not
see as an issue. Its not like cameras contain large capacitors, there
is not the space.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

'Inrush' currents occur when the load presents an initial near-zero
impedance, so that the current is limited only by the internal
resistance
of
the cells/battery. This effect happens when voltage is applied to
un-charged capacitors and stationary (at-rest) motors. There can be
adverse
effects on mechanical switches - contact burning or sticking - and on
semiconductors if the current exceeds the ratings. Damage can occur to
small motors like those used in film-winding, if the brush current is
not
limited by the battery's internal resistance.

Lithium batteries have a very low internal resistance, plus an
inherently
higher output voltage, 1.7v vs 1.5v for alkalines, which worsens the
inrush
problem.

For a simple explanation, have a look at
http://flashlightreviews.home.att.ne..._explained.htm

Conclusion: do not use lithiums in any equipment unless authorized by
the
maker.

I'd like to see his/her reference for two items. The 1.7 volts he says
lithiums put out. (the specs say 1.5 volts) and the lower internal
resistance. I calculate (from the specs I read) about 1/2 ohm, which is
like
three times what alkalines are supposed to be.......


See the spec sheet in pdf format at:
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets...ithium/l91.pdf

Ok, here is another pdf file on the L91 AA cell. Note on page 2 that the
*nominal* voltage is 1.5v, but the *actual* open-circuit voltage is 1.8v.
Further, on page 6 are discharge graphs for varying loads which clearly show
that the voltage under discharge is 1.7v. Further down is a detailed
explanation of the built-in PTC thermistor which limits the maximum discharge by
heating up and effectively increasing the internal resistance of the cell. What
would a lithium cell do without that PTC?

See http://www.humanedgetech.com/manuals...gizerspecs.pdf

Conclusion: No lithium cells in cameras that are not made for them.

Colin D.

In article ,
C J D writes:

'Inrush' currents occur when the load presents an initial near-zero
impedance, so that the current is limited only by the internal resistance of
the cells/battery. This effect happens when voltage is applied to
un-charged capacitors and stationary (at-rest) motors. There can be adverse
effects on mechanical switches - contact burning or sticking - and on
semiconductors if the current exceeds the ratings. Damage can occur to
small motors like those used in film-winding, if the brush current is not
limited by the battery's internal resistance.


The 13% overvoltage from the lithiums I suspect is far to small an effect
to increase the inrush currents to unacceptable levels. The capacitors
are quite likely to have +- 10 or 20% tolerances and I doubt if
any of the semiconductors are being operated that close to their maximum
ratings. If they were the inevitable scatter in tolerances would make
the cameras very unreliable. As for switch contacts, I doubt if they are
stressed high enough to have a problem at all, if there was a problem it
might be a life problem with an earlyer interval before the contacts
needed replacing. I suspect there simply is not enoug current passed
for that to be an issue.

The matters of internal resistance have been delt with by William Graham.

Pete


Lithium batteries have a very low internal resistance, plus an inherently
higher output voltage, 1.7v vs 1.5v for alkalines, which worsens the inrush
problem.

For a simple explanation, have a look at
http://flashlightreviews.home.att.ne..._explained.htm

Conclusion: do not use lithiums in any equipment unless authorized by the
maker.

Colin D.


--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

In article ,
C J D writes:

'Inrush' currents occur when the load presents an initial near-zero
impedance, so that the current is limited only by the internal resistance of
the cells/battery. This effect happens when voltage is applied to
un-charged capacitors and stationary (at-rest) motors. There can be adverse
effects on mechanical switches - contact burning or sticking - and on
semiconductors if the current exceeds the ratings. Damage can occur to
small motors like those used in film-winding, if the brush current is not
limited by the battery's internal resistance.


The 13% overvoltage from the lithiums I suspect is far to small an effect
to increase the inrush currents to unacceptable levels. The capacitors
are quite likely to have +- 10 or 20% tolerances and I doubt if
any of the semiconductors are being operated that close to their maximum
ratings. If they were the inevitable scatter in tolerances would make
the cameras very unreliable. As for switch contacts, I doubt if they are
stressed high enough to have a problem at all, if there was a problem it
might be a life problem with an earlyer interval before the contacts
needed replacing. I suspect there simply is not enoug current passed
for that to be an issue.

The matters of internal resistance have been delt with by William Graham.

Pete


Lithium batteries have a very low internal resistance, plus an inherently
higher output voltage, 1.7v vs 1.5v for alkalines, which worsens the inrush
problem.

For a simple explanation, have a look at
http://flashlightreviews.home.att.ne..._explained.htm

Conclusion: do not use lithiums in any equipment unless authorized by the
maker.

Colin D.


--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

"C J D" wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:dTZRc.279457$XM6.95703@attbi_s53...

"C J D" wrote in message
...
Peter Chant wrote:

In article ,
Roger Halstead writes:

I would expect the initial "infush" current to be higher with
Lithium
batteries than regular. In many instances that probably isn't a
problem, but it could be.

Inrush currents are only normally an issue with transformers. Yes
there
could be a slightly higher current charging capcitors to an extra
200mV but that would be a trivial icrease in current which I could
not
see as an issue. Its not like cameras contain large capacitors,
there
is not the space.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

'Inrush' currents occur when the load presents an initial near-zero
impedance, so that the current is limited only by the internal
resistance
of
the cells/battery. This effect happens when voltage is applied to
un-charged capacitors and stationary (at-rest) motors. There can be
adverse
effects on mechanical switches - contact burning or sticking - and
on
semiconductors if the current exceeds the ratings. Damage can occur
to
small motors like those used in film-winding, if the brush current
is
not
limited by the battery's internal resistance.

Lithium batteries have a very low internal resistance, plus an
inherently
higher output voltage, 1.7v vs 1.5v for alkalines, which worsens the
inrush
problem.

For a simple explanation, have a look at

http://flashlightreviews.home.att.ne..._explained.htm

Conclusion: do not use lithiums in any equipment unless authorized
by
the
maker.

I'd like to see his/her reference for two items. The 1.7 volts he says
lithiums put out. (the specs say 1.5 volts) and the lower internal
resistance. I calculate (from the specs I read) about 1/2 ohm, which
is
like
three times what alkalines are supposed to be.......


See the spec sheet in pdf format at:
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets...ithium/l91.pdf

Ok, here is another pdf file on the L91 AA cell. Note on page 2 that the
*nominal* voltage is 1.5v, but the *actual* open-circuit voltage is 1.8v.
Further, on page 6 are discharge graphs for varying loads which clearly
show
that the voltage under discharge is 1.7v. Further down is a detailed
explanation of the built-in PTC thermistor which limits the maximum
discharge by
heating up and effectively increasing the internal resistance of the cell.
What
would a lithium cell do without that PTC?

See http://www.humanedgetech.com/manuals...gizerspecs.pdf

Conclusion: No lithium cells in cameras that are not made for them.

Colin D.

Well, at least this article is a little more scientific than the other one
that was written for 8 year olds....
But, it says right off the get-go that LiFeS2 batteries, "can be used in
any application that uses other 1.5 volt AA battery types" Furthermore, I
see nothing in the specs that tells me that your conclusion above is
justified. I have used them everywhere. In cameras, flashes, and all other
electronic devices that take AA batteries, and the only difference that I
have found is that they last like 10 times longer, and they only cost like 5
times as much....IOW, they are a good buy, and I consider changing batteries
a pain....(they only seem to go bad at crucial times.) So, the less I have
to do it, the better. I will continue to use these, and when the first
device I have goes bad because of them, you (and the others on this forum)
will be the first to know.......

"C J D" wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:dTZRc.279457$XM6.95703@attbi_s53...

"C J D" wrote in message
...
Peter Chant wrote:

In article ,
Roger Halstead writes:

I would expect the initial "infush" current to be higher with
Lithium
batteries than regular. In many instances that probably isn't a
problem, but it could be.

Inrush currents are only normally an issue with transformers. Yes
there
could be a slightly higher current charging capcitors to an extra
200mV but that would be a trivial icrease in current which I could
not
see as an issue. Its not like cameras contain large capacitors,
there
is not the space.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

'Inrush' currents occur when the load presents an initial near-zero
impedance, so that the current is limited only by the internal
resistance
of
the cells/battery. This effect happens when voltage is applied to
un-charged capacitors and stationary (at-rest) motors. There can be
adverse
effects on mechanical switches - contact burning or sticking - and
on
semiconductors if the current exceeds the ratings. Damage can occur
to
small motors like those used in film-winding, if the brush current
is
not
limited by the battery's internal resistance.

Lithium batteries have a very low internal resistance, plus an
inherently
higher output voltage, 1.7v vs 1.5v for alkalines, which worsens the
inrush
problem.

For a simple explanation, have a look at

http://flashlightreviews.home.att.ne..._explained.htm

Conclusion: do not use lithiums in any equipment unless authorized
by
the
maker.

I'd like to see his/her reference for two items. The 1.7 volts he says
lithiums put out. (the specs say 1.5 volts) and the lower internal
resistance. I calculate (from the specs I read) about 1/2 ohm, which
is
like
three times what alkalines are supposed to be.......


See the spec sheet in pdf format at:
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets...ithium/l91.pdf

Ok, here is another pdf file on the L91 AA cell. Note on page 2 that the
*nominal* voltage is 1.5v, but the *actual* open-circuit voltage is 1.8v.
Further, on page 6 are discharge graphs for varying loads which clearly
show
that the voltage under discharge is 1.7v. Further down is a detailed
explanation of the built-in PTC thermistor which limits the maximum
discharge by
heating up and effectively increasing the internal resistance of the cell.
What
would a lithium cell do without that PTC?

See http://www.humanedgetech.com/manuals...gizerspecs.pdf

Conclusion: No lithium cells in cameras that are not made for them.

Colin D.

Well, at least this article is a little more scientific than the other one
that was written for 8 year olds....
But, it says right off the get-go that LiFeS2 batteries, "can be used in
any application that uses other 1.5 volt AA battery types" Furthermore, I
see nothing in the specs that tells me that your conclusion above is
justified. I have used them everywhere. In cameras, flashes, and all other
electronic devices that take AA batteries, and the only difference that I
have found is that they last like 10 times longer, and they only cost like 5
times as much....IOW, they are a good buy, and I consider changing batteries
a pain....(they only seem to go bad at crucial times.) So, the less I have
to do it, the better. I will continue to use these, and when the first
device I have goes bad because of them, you (and the others on this forum)
will be the first to know.......

William Graham wrote:

"C J D" wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

"William Graham" wrote in message
news:dTZRc.279457$XM6.95703@attbi_s53...

"C J D" wrote in message
...
Peter Chant wrote:

In article ,
Roger Halstead writes:

I would expect the initial "infush" current to be higher with
Lithium
batteries than regular. In many instances that probably isn't a
problem, but it could be.

Inrush currents are only normally an issue with transformers. Yes
there
could be a slightly higher current charging capcitors to an extra
200mV but that would be a trivial icrease in current which I could
not
see as an issue. Its not like cameras contain large capacitors,
there
is not the space.

--

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

'Inrush' currents occur when the load presents an initial near-zero
impedance, so that the current is limited only by the internal
resistance
of
the cells/battery. This effect happens when voltage is applied to
un-charged capacitors and stationary (at-rest) motors. There can be
adverse
effects on mechanical switches - contact burning or sticking - and
on
semiconductors if the current exceeds the ratings. Damage can occur
to
small motors like those used in film-winding, if the brush current
is
not
limited by the battery's internal resistance.

Lithium batteries have a very low internal resistance, plus an
inherently
higher output voltage, 1.7v vs 1.5v for alkalines, which worsens the
inrush
problem.

For a simple explanation, have a look at

http://flashlightreviews.home.att.ne..._explained.htm

Conclusion: do not use lithiums in any equipment unless authorized
by
the
maker.

I'd like to see his/her reference for two items. The 1.7 volts he says
lithiums put out. (the specs say 1.5 volts) and the lower internal
resistance. I calculate (from the specs I read) about 1/2 ohm, which
is
like
three times what alkalines are supposed to be.......


See the spec sheet in pdf format at:
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets...ithium/l91.pdf

Ok, here is another pdf file on the L91 AA cell. Note on page 2 that the
*nominal* voltage is 1.5v, but the *actual* open-circuit voltage is 1.8v.
Further, on page 6 are discharge graphs for varying loads which clearly
show
that the voltage under discharge is 1.7v. Further down is a detailed
explanation of the built-in PTC thermistor which limits the maximum
discharge by
heating up and effectively increasing the internal resistance of the cell.
What
would a lithium cell do without that PTC?

See http://www.humanedgetech.com/manuals...gizerspecs.pdf

Conclusion: No lithium cells in cameras that are not made for them.

Colin D.

Well, at least this article is a little more scientific than the other one
that was written for 8 year olds....
But, it says right off the get-go that LiFeS2 batteries, "can be used in
any application that uses other 1.5 volt AA battery types" Furthermore, I
see nothing in the specs that tells me that your conclusion above is
justified. I have used them everywhere. In cameras, flashes, and all other
electronic devices that take AA batteries, and the only difference that I
have found is that they last like 10 times longer, and they only cost like 5
times as much....IOW, they are a good buy, and I consider changing batteries
a pain....(they only seem to go bad at crucial times.) So, the less I have
to do it, the better. I will continue to use these, and when the first
device I have goes bad because of them, you (and the others on this forum)
will be the first to know.......

Ok, William, I hope your luck holds there.

Cheers, Colin D.