a techie sort of question about p&s cameras and optical viewfinders

I currently shoot with a Panasonic Lumix fz50 -- and I am generally pleased
with the camera [I was an SLR shutterbug in the days of film, I chose the
Panasonic fz50, and previously had an fz20, because I no longer wanted to
lug around all the lenses and such with a digital SLR]. I now find that I
would like to have something that was even easier to shoot with -- something
I could fasten to my belt, and have ready in a moment [I carry the Lumix in
my backpack, and by the time I get the backpack off my back, fight with the
zippers, and pull out the camera, the shot I saw is often gone]........

What I would like is a 10X [or better] optical zoom, competent at 200 ISO
[but really wish for 400 -800] -- *with an **optical** viewfinder* [and
motion compensation, and shutter/aperture flexibility, etc., of course]. I
see that there are digital cameras of the size I'd like with an optical
viewfinder [e.g., the Canon PowerShot A590 IS] -- but currently, that
size/feature set of camera does not offer more that 4-5X optical zoom. At
the same time, I see cameras with roughly the same dimensions [e.g.,
something on the order of the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H10 or Canon PowerShot
SX110 IS, size-wise] -- which offer the kind of zoom I'd like, but do not
have an optical viewfinder.

So, my question for the experts here -- how is it that optical viewfinders
are not available ["yet" I presume] with compact/subcompact cameras that
offer 5X optical zoom? Is it an engineering problem? Is it a consumer
market, consumer profile, consumer demand factor? It seems to me, as a
layperson, that it should not be all that difficult, or expensive, to graft
on an optical zoom apparatus to any camera -- and it would seem that
offering such would be a postive selling point. But obviously, since there
is no such camera I can find, there is some factor or factor set I am not
aware of. I'd much appreciate any insight into this question.

tia
albert

albert wrote:
[]
So, my question for the experts here -- how is it that optical
viewfinders are not available ["yet" I presume] with
compact/subcompact cameras that offer 5X optical zoom? Is it an
engineering problem? Is it a consumer market, consumer profile,
consumer demand factor? It seems to me, as a layperson, that it
should not be all that difficult, or expensive, to graft on an
optical zoom apparatus to any camera -- and it would seem that
offering such would be a postive selling point. But obviously,
since there is no such camera I can find, there is some factor or
factor set I am not aware of. I'd much appreciate any insight into
this question.
tia
albert

Albert,

Such viewfinders would be too big and too expensive, or too in accurate.

For a much more compact camera than your Panasonic FZ50, you could
consider the TZ3/4/5 series. 28-280mm image-stabilised lens:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz3/

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz5/

You may appreciate the wider 28mm end of the zoom range.
I had the Panasonic FZ5 and my wife the FZ20, but we have now moved on to
Nikon DSLRs and a shared TZ3. The DSLR has a top-quality optical finder,
of course, and isn't a lot bigger than the FZ50....

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor wrote:
albert wrote:
[]
So, my question for the experts here -- how is it that optical
viewfinders are not available ["yet" I presume] with
compact/subcompact cameras that offer 5X optical zoom? Is it an
engineering problem? Is it a consumer market, consumer profile,
consumer demand factor? It seems to me, as a layperson, that it
should not be all that difficult, or expensive, to graft on an
optical zoom apparatus to any camera -- and it would seem that
offering such would be a postive selling point. But obviously,
since there is no such camera I can find, there is some factor or
factor set I am not aware of. I'd much appreciate any insight into
this question.
tia
albert

Albert,

Such viewfinders would be too big and too expensive, or too in accurate.
Yes, creating a bright and accurate zooming viewfinder linked to such
lenses is a bit of an engineering challenge.. Also, in this market, the
OVF has a few additional issues:
- because it is not through the lens, it cannot be used to help with
knowing how the sensor will render the image, eg focus, d-o-f effects
and to some extent shadow/highlight definition
- it cannot easily display overlaid shooting info

It seems to me that the better solution to this problem is to create the
proverbial *decent* EVF. The Panasonic G1 suggests it's not far away
and hopefully this technology will trickle down into p&s cameras.

For a much more compact camera than your Panasonic FZ50, you could
consider the TZ3/4/5 series. 28-280mm image-stabilised lens:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz3/

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz5/

You may appreciate the wider 28mm end of the zoom range.
I had the Panasonic FZ5 and my wife the FZ20, but we have now moved on
to Nikon DSLRs and a shared TZ3. The DSLR has a top-quality optical
finder, of course, and isn't a lot bigger than the FZ50....

Good advice, as long as you add that the Pana's are possibly not the
best choice if you shoot in low light frequently. But then, not many
similar cameras are..

Hi Albert,
If what you're looking for is an accessory coupled-zoom viewfinder for
your fz50, then you're essentially out of luck.
The best you can hope for is an add-on VF that matches the widest end of
the zoom range, ie: a 3.5cm VF that may have been intended for use with
a rangefinder camera or something similar.
The only alternative (apart from a DSLR camera) that is available with a
coupled zoom optical VF is something like the Canon G10
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/ which has the whole thing
(camera and optical VF) built into a single unit.
The G10 also has the advantage that it's small enough that it should fit
in a large pocket, rather than having to carry it in your pack as you do
with your FZ50.
I'm sure that there are other compact digicams with an optical
viewfinder and using the "buying guide"
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp on dpreview.com is a good
start, but may not have some recent compacts (other than Canon) in their
database.

dj_nme wrote:
Hi Albert,
If what you're looking for is an accessory coupled-zoom viewfinder for
your fz50, then you're essentially out of luck.
The best you can hope for is an add-on VF that matches the widest end of
the zoom range, ie: a 3.5cm VF that may have been intended for use with
a rangefinder camera or something similar.
The only alternative (apart from a DSLR camera) that is available with a
coupled zoom optical VF is something like the Canon G10
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/ which has the whole thing
(camera and optical VF) built into a single unit.
The G10 also has the advantage that it's small enough that it should fit
in a large pocket, rather than having to carry it in your pack as you do
with your FZ50.
I'm sure that there are other compact digicams with an optical
viewfinder and using the "buying guide"
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp on dpreview.com is a good
start, but may not have some recent compacts (other than Canon) in their
database.

Most of us (certainly myself) do prefer an optical viewfinder. However,
when out in public, I notice a lot of casual shooters holding the camera
at arm's length even when the camera has an optical finder. Maybe
marketing feedback has persuaded camera makers they can dispense with
the optical finder. Apart from cost it enables a larger lcd in a compact
size.
Dave Cohen

Dave Cohen wrote:
dj_nme wrote:
Hi Albert,
If what you're looking for is an accessory coupled-zoom viewfinder for
your fz50, then you're essentially out of luck.
The best you can hope for is an add-on VF that matches the widest end
of the zoom range, ie: a 3.5cm VF that may have been intended for use
with a rangefinder camera or something similar.
The only alternative (apart from a DSLR camera) that is available with
a coupled zoom optical VF is something like the Canon G10
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/ which has the whole thing
(camera and optical VF) built into a single unit.
The G10 also has the advantage that it's small enough that it should
fit in a large pocket, rather than having to carry it in your pack as
you do with your FZ50.
I'm sure that there are other compact digicams with an optical
viewfinder and using the "buying guide"
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp on dpreview.com is a
good start, but may not have some recent compacts (other than Canon)
in their database.

Most of us (certainly myself) do prefer an optical viewfinder. However,
when out in public, I notice a lot of casual shooters holding the camera
at arm's length even when the camera has an optical finder.

My guess is that the optical VF on most compacts (those which have one)
tends to be quite small to look through and has quite a bit of parallax
error, especially when shooting up-close.
So it ends up being easier to look at the LCD, rather than squinting
through a little tunnel which can't really be trusted for framing anyway.

Maybe
marketing feedback has persuaded camera makers they can dispense with
the optical finder. Apart from cost it enables a larger lcd in a compact
size.
Dave Cohen

Also that it's cheaper to dispense with another set of lenses and a zoom
coupling mechanism which are needed for a decent optical VF on a compact
digicam.

"albert" wrote in message
...

snip

would like to have something that was even easier to shoot with --
something
I could fasten to my belt, and have ready in a moment [I carry the Lumix
in
my backpack, and by the time I get the backpack off my back, fight with
the
zippers, and pull out the camera, the shot I saw is often gone]........

What I would like is a 10X [or better] optical zoom, competent at 200 ISO
[but really wish for 400 -800] -- *with an **optical** viewfinder* [and


snip


It appears that what I currently would like is just over the horizon, but
not quite here yet.

Thank you all for the explanations, observations and recommendations.

albert

"Marty Fremen" wrote in message
...
"albert" wrote:

What I would like is a 10X [or better] optical zoom, competent at 200 ISO
[but really wish for 400 -800] -- *with an **optical** viewfinder*

A compromise you might try is an adaptor which turns the LCD into a sort
of
EVF - you can get gizmos which look like a loupe on a little bellows unit,
they clip onto the LCD and fold flat when not in use. I don't know how
good
they are, but the prices I've seen weren't too bad.


I will take a look, thanks.

dj_nme wrote:
Dave Cohen wrote:
dj_nme wrote:
Hi Albert,
If what you're looking for is an accessory coupled-zoom viewfinder
for your fz50, then you're essentially out of luck.
The best you can hope for is an add-on VF that matches the widest end
of the zoom range, ie: a 3.5cm VF that may have been intended for use
with a rangefinder camera or something similar.
The only alternative (apart from a DSLR camera) that is available
with a coupled zoom optical VF is something like the Canon G10
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/ which has the whole thing
(camera and optical VF) built into a single unit.
The G10 also has the advantage that it's small enough that it should
fit in a large pocket, rather than having to carry it in your pack as
you do with your FZ50.
I'm sure that there are other compact digicams with an optical
viewfinder and using the "buying guide"
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp on dpreview.com is a
good start, but may not have some recent compacts (other than Canon)
in their database.

Most of us (certainly myself) do prefer an optical viewfinder.
However, when out in public, I notice a lot of casual shooters holding
the camera at arm's length even when the camera has an optical finder.

My guess is that the optical VF on most compacts (those which have one)
tends to be quite small to look through and has quite a bit of parallax
error, especially when shooting up-close.
So it ends up being easier to look at the LCD, rather than squinting
through a little tunnel which can't really be trusted for framing anyway.

Maybe marketing feedback has persuaded camera makers they can dispense
with the optical finder. Apart from cost it enables a larger lcd in a
compact size.
Dave Cohen

Also that it's cheaper to dispense with another set of lenses and a zoom
coupling mechanism which are needed for a decent optical VF on a compact
digicam.

The optical finder tends to crop somewhat, so if shooting close I mainly
film the frame and leave a little room at the top. Seems to work ok and
I can always keep the shutter button depressed to check the playback
(not doing so displays the image for 2 secs). Those lcd images are hard
to see in sunlight (when reviewing you can shield somewhat). However,
having said that I should add I always review and crop prior to printing.
Dave Cohen