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#21
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FZ30 battery
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:
SMS wrote: Paul Allen wrote: snip It's too bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have a lot of other advantages. What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages. The major advantages of Li-Ion a 1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH batteries) 2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume 4. Far, far better low-temperature performance 5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than integral to the camera 7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline proportional to charge level 8. Lower maintenance. 9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries. 10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras). NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion rechargeable batteries: 1. Faster charging with high rate chargers 2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are discharged and no charger is available 3. Longer shelf life Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself. I don't see any "evangelism". What do you perceive to the the advantages of NiMH? Paul Allen -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#22
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FZ30 battery
Paul Allen wrote:
SMS wrote: Paul Allen wrote: snip It's too bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have a lot of other advantages. What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages. The major advantages of Li-Ion a 1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH batteries) 2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume 4. Far, far better low-temperature performance 5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than integral to the camera 7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline proportional to charge level 8. Lower maintenance. 9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries. 10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras). NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion rechargeable batteries: 1. Faster charging with high rate chargers 2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are discharged and no charger is available 3. Longer shelf life Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself. I see, so you can't point out any inaccuracies in those statements, and you can't point out the "a lot of other advantages" that you stated existed. A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow Steve |
#23
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FZ30 battery
J. Clarke wrote:
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote: SMS wrote: Paul Allen wrote: snip It's too bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have a lot of other advantages. What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages. The major advantages of Li-Ion a 1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH batteries) 2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume 4. Far, far better low-temperature performance 5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than integral to the camera 7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline proportional to charge level 8. Lower maintenance. 9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries. 10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras). NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion rechargeable batteries: 1. Faster charging with high rate chargers 2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are discharged and no charger is available 3. Longer shelf life Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself. I don't see any "evangelism". Excuse me? I should prefer proprietary batteries because the selection of high-end cameras using them is wider, or because of battery doors? Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how??? Li-ion batteries are really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter? Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion. What do you perceive to the the advantages of NiMH? The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're less expensive and come in one standard size. Until the camera makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes, I'll prefer AA batteries. (And my next camera will most likely use a proprietary battery, because battery type is not the most important factor in choosing a camera.) Paul Allen |
#24
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FZ30 battery
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:
J. Clarke wrote: Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote: SMS wrote: Paul Allen wrote: snip It's too bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have a lot of other advantages. What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages. The major advantages of Li-Ion a 1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH batteries) 2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume 4. Far, far better low-temperature performance 5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than integral to the camera 7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline proportional to charge level 8. Lower maintenance. 9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries. 10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras). NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion rechargeable batteries: 1. Faster charging with high rate chargers 2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are discharged and no charger is available 3. Longer shelf life Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself. I don't see any "evangelism". Excuse me? I should prefer proprietary batteries because the selection of high-end cameras using them is wider, or because of battery doors? Do you deny that either of these is a true statement? Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how??? Whether NiMH batteries benefit from the occasional deep discharge like NiCD do is debateable. But if they do then then need it. Li-ion batteries are really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter? How does life-cycle cost not matter? If a lithium ion battery costs twice as much but is good for three times as many cycles then it's cheaper in the long run. Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion. "Conversion" is not possible. If you think that someone is trying to "convert" you then you need to put a few more layers on your tinfoil hat. What do you perceive to the the advantages of NiMH? The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're less expensive and come in one standard size. Less expensive is debatable unless you consider only purchase price and not life-cycle cost. The standard size was mentioned. Until the camera makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes, I'll prefer AA batteries. (And my next camera will most likely use a proprietary battery, because battery type is not the most important factor in choosing a camera.)\ Precisely. You don't give a damn what kind of battery is in it if the other features are right. Paul Allen -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#25
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FZ30 battery
Paul Allen wrote:
The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're less expensive and come in one standard size. Until the camera makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes, I'll prefer AA batteries. Actually, while it certainly isn't down to one or two, there are many cameras, from different manufacturers, that do use the same Li-Ion battery pack. And of course many manufacturers use the same battery in many different models. As far as cost goes, if you look at the cost of an after-market Li-Ion pack, from a reputable company, the cost is very comparable to that of NiMH AA cells. I.e. at $10 for four Sanyo 2500 mAH NiMH cells, and $11.50 for a Canon BP511 (after-market), the cost per cycle for 300 cycles over three years, is 5/10 of a cent different. If you do the maximum rated cycles (500 for NiMH, 1000 for Li-Ion) then the Li-Ion is much cheaper (with the low self-discharge rate of Li-Ion, you're unlikely to reach 1000 cycles before the battery reaches its end-of-life based on time (3 years). If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more. Steve http://batterydata.com/ |
#26
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FZ30 battery
SMS wrote:
[] If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more. Steve I'm sure you could buy Camera Brand NiMH cells at a vastly inflated price as well, if you try hard enough! G David |
#27
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FZ30 battery
David J Taylor wrote:
SMS wrote: [] If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more. Steve I'm sure you could buy Camera Brand NiMH cells at a vastly inflated price as well, if you try hard enough! For some reason it's much harder for stores to gouge on the NiMH batteries, because I think they're trying to sell them as an alternative to alkalines, rather than trying to position them against a proprietary battery. Fry's is no discount store, yet their AA prices are comparable to Thomas -Distributing, while their proprietary Li-Ion batteries are very expensive. Their proprietary NiMH packs are also expensive, I have an old camcorder and my son wanted to use it, and Fry's wanted about 2x what I bought the NiMH battery pack for on Amazon. |
#28
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FZ30 battery
J. Clarke wrote:
Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how??? Whether NiMH batteries benefit from the occasional deep discharge like NiCD do is debateable. But if they do then then need it. It isn't just that, though it is true that doing a refresh charge on an NiMH will help maintain full capacity. I was also referring to the fact that you can't just charge up a few sets of NiMH batteries and leave them in your camera bag for when they are needed. The self-discharge makes this impractical (it is true that the new Sanyo eneloop batteries will not have this problem). Li-ion batteries are really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter? How does life-cycle cost not matter? If a lithium ion battery costs twice as much but is good for three times as many cycles then it's cheaper in the long run. Many people make the mistake of not looking at the big picture when it comes to figuring out cost. Now to be fair, the Li-Ion battery has about a three year life-span, regardless of the number of cycles, so you really can't base your calculations on the maximum number of cycles unless you are a very heavy user, taking thousands of pictures per week. Still, even with a more reasonable number of cycles, the Li-Ion cost is very comparable to NiMH cost. Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion. "Conversion" is not possible. If you think that someone is trying to "convert" you then you need to put a few more layers on your tinfoil hat. Conversion is sometimes possible. Some cameras can take an RCR-V3 Li-Ion in place of two AA cells. for digital SLRs, sometimes the vertical grip can use either two Li-Ion packs, or six AA cells. Less expensive is debatable unless you consider only purchase price and not life-cycle cost. The standard size was mentioned. Also, don't forget that the Li-Ion powered camera comes with a battery and a charger, two things that most AA powered cameras lack. Add about $20 for a charger and batteries. Steve http://batterydata.com |
#29
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FZ30 battery
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#30
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FZ30 battery
SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote: SMS wrote: Paul Allen wrote: snip It's too bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have a lot of other advantages. What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages. The major advantages of Li-Ion a 1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH batteries) 2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume 4. Far, far better low-temperature performance 5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the maximum number of charge/discharge cycles 6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than integral to the camera 7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline proportional to charge level 8. Lower maintenance. 9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries. 10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras). NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion rechargeable batteries: 1. Faster charging with high rate chargers 2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are discharged and no charger is available 3. Longer shelf life Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself. I see, so you can't point out any inaccuracies in those statements, and you can't point out the "a lot of other advantages" that you stated existed. Actually, you don't see. I noted your bias, but couldn't see any point in actually rebutting the worst of your claims. You're so passionate about defending li-ion batteries that you have a whole web page devoted to proving their superiority. To do more than just acknowledge your bias would just stir the pot to no useful result. A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow Too true. Paul Allen |
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