The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!

In message , Neil
Harrington writes

"DRS" wrote in message
.au...
"Chris H" wrote in message

In message , DRS
writes

[...]

And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world.

A rouge state? Only by the wingnuts in here.

It is not acceptable to merely
deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be
established by evidence.

Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible
evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans
did not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded.

There is genuine dispute among international jurists about the legitimacy
of the Taliban government given the state of armed resistance to it.

The "Taliban GOVERNMENT"?!

You seem to be saying that there is some question about whether the Taliban
is or is not the legitimate government there

At the time of the invasion the Taliban were the legitimate government
of Afghanistan

because the Afghan government
and army are showing "armed resistance to it." That certainly seems an odd
view.

After the invasion "elections" were held at which some parties were not
permitted to run for office.... So it was hardly free and democratic.
This is why there is still a war going on.

It is also why the US has now followed the UK's lead (and greater
experience) in saying any solution must now involve discussions with the
Taliban. An "organisation" that has run the US military into the ground
for the last 7 years, as it did the Russians.



--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message , Neil
Harrington writes

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , DRS
writes
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message


[...]

The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection
whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military
force. If you think it does, show me where.

Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no
rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot.
That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years.

Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been
shown
to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by
mistake.

However the experience of several years illegal detention and torture
turned most of them and their families into at least sympathisers of Al-
Qeada.

Worse, it has gotten them used to good food and other amenities that they'll
have to do without when they go home again. I read recently that the average
Guantanamo prisoner has gained 20 pounds while there.

That is what happens when you have junk food and not enough exercise.
They may be able to sue the US over that :-)


That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where
no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush
administration fought every step of the way.

And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world.

Until they need help again, and then all is forgiven."We've changed our
minds, Americans are wonderful Send money."

Nope.. Not need the US help for a LONG while. Not since we needed some
cannon fodder in 1994.

However the US has needed the UK's help many times since 1946

It is not acceptable to merely
deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by
evidence.

Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible
evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did
not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded.

We "illegally invaded" whom?

Afghanistan and Iraq.

We have been there and are there now trying to
shore up the Afghan government itself, which admittedly seems a hopeless
task, not to mention thankless.

Hopeless because of the way it is done. You need free elections that
includes letting the Taliban run for office (and if they win supporting
them).

As far as "Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US (etc.)" is concerned,
what nonsense.

No it is a FACT

What on earth makes you think the Afghan government could
have made good on any such offer?

According to you the Taliban knew all about OBL so one assume they knew
where he was.

The government's support from its own
people, police and army is marginal to none.

The current government true but the Taliban had a lot of support
initially.

Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little
waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being
summarily executed.

There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and
under
the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and
ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute
those who engaged in it.

Agreed. The right wing in the USA sound just like the N.Koreans, Chinese
and the Israelis.

You have a very strange world view.

Based on travelling in it and talking to people in other countries and
seeing their news.

Tell me how much travel have you done outside North America ?

Next time your country gets its ass in a
sling in some war, I trust you will look elsewhere for help and not across
the big pond to the country that got you through those two big ones. Or do
you suppose the *left* wing in the U.S. will rush to your aid?

We have not needed any help from the US since 1946.... on the other hand
the US has needed the UK's help on many occasions.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 15:12:37 +0100, Chris H wrote:

In message , tony cooper
writes
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:51:48 +0100, Chris H wrote:

However this was fully discussed in 2001 in UK.current-events.terrorisum

Well that's sorted, then. Nothing like a bunch of know-nothing net
kooks to set us straight on "terrorisum".

See link
http://www.phaedsys.com/news/index.html

The "kooks" I spend my time with are people at the defence industry and
counter terrorist business.

You have no idea of the legitimacy of the people you exchange posts
with in that newsgroup. You have no idea of the real extent of their
knowledge. You accept what you want to hear.

My own personal experiences having years of experience in the Military,

Years of experience in the military doesn't mean squat to me. It is
what was done and at what level, that makes a difference. You don't
impress me as someone who functioned at a level important enough to be
in on much. For all I know, your years in the military could have
been as a cook and all you really know is how to prepare bubble and
squeak for 200.

Most here calling me a "kook" don't even use real id's and email
addresses let alone have any real information other than stuff on the TV
and the web.

Speaking of TV, when are you going to reply to my questions about your
"real information" about Fox News? Were your "informed" comments
about the news segments or the political commentary segments? Have
you ever actually watched Fox News? Do you know the difference
between a political commentary segment and a news segment?


They have no credibility at all. They do have a political
bias which clouds their view of the media they use for information to
make up for their real lack of any first hand knowledge.

That pretty much sums up my take on you.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."
So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If
you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any
suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things".
So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or
help at all.....

But before you loaned that neighbour that gun, all your friends (and, yes,
they were real friends) from around the World told you that it was
dangerous and a bad idea to loan a gun to that neighbour, giving you very
good reasons not to.
You responded by calling them cowards, renaming food items and being
generally insulting and abnoxious.
It is little wonder that those friends are now thinking "I told you so"
and are totally convinced that it is *your* problem.

Well congratulations. You too have joined the blame game club. So you too
have no useful suggestion as to what should now be done to fix the
situation. Just remember that when WW-III starts, you too will suffer from
the fallout.

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200910020108596853-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom...
On 2009-10-02 00:29:07 -0700, "Bill Graham" said:

I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."
So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If
you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any
suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things".
So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or
help at all.....

Huh?
WTF are you trying to say? Are making some sort of online confession? or
is this another "Oregon Bill, all the World is against me" parable?

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Your stupidity is beyond belief. What kind of a parable do you think it is?
You have just joined the "blame game club" Thanks for your useful input.

Bill Graham wrote:

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200910020108596853-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom...
On 2009-10-02 00:29:07 -0700, "Bill Graham" said:

I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."
So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If
you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any
suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things".
So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or
help at all.....

Huh?
WTF are you trying to say? Are making some sort of online confession? or
is this another "Oregon Bill, all the World is against me" parable?

Your stupidity is beyond belief.

96% on the irony meter.

--
Ray Fischer

In message , Bill Graham
writes

"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend
himself against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen
people. Now, I am worried about what I should do about it. So, I
asked Chris H what he thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned
him the gun to begin with." So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what
should I do? and, Chris says, "If you hadn't loaned him your gun to
begin with, you wouldn't have the problem you have now." And, I say,
"Even if that's true, I still would like to find a way to solve the
present situation. Do you have any suggestions?" And Chris says,
"You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is the logic of
Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at all.....

But before you loaned that neighbour that gun, all your friends (and,
yes, they were real friends) from around the World told you that it
was dangerous and a bad idea to loan a gun to that neighbour, giving
you very good reasons not to.
You responded by calling them cowards, renaming food items and being
generally insulting and abnoxious.
It is little wonder that those friends are now thinking "I told you
so" and are totally convinced that it is *your* problem.

Well congratulations. You too have joined the blame game club. So you
too have no useful suggestion as to what should now be done to fix the
situation.

You really are an idiot. Without understanding how we go to where we are
in this mess you can't get out of it.

Just remember that when WW-III starts, you too will suffer from the
fallout.

WW3 is all but over and the USA lost.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message , Ray Fischer
writes
Bill Graham wrote:

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:200910020108596853-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom...
On 2009-10-02 00:29:07 -0700, "Bill Graham" said:

I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."
So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If
you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any
suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things".
So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or
help at all.....

Huh?
WTF are you trying to say? Are making some sort of online confession? or
is this another "Oregon Bill, all the World is against me" parable?

Your stupidity is beyond belief.

96% on the irony meter.

Have to agree...

I am never ceased to be amazed how delusion these Us Republicans can
get. They ignore anything they don't like. Then when they can't ignore
it they move the goal posts and redefine words like torture. They
prevaricate, equivocate and get evasive.

They will argue a missing comma and say that invalidates the whole
argument.

They will not accept any evidence that disagrees with them usually using
the cry that it is "liberal bias" even when the evidence comes from
CinC UK forces in Iraq or Afghanistan.

I have come to the conclusion that to get into the US republican party
you hate to take a test and not score over 40% :-)


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message , tony cooper
writes
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 15:12:37 +0100, Chris H wrote:

In message , tony cooper
writes
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:51:48 +0100, Chris H wrote:

However this was fully discussed in 2001 in UK.current-events.terrorisum

Well that's sorted, then. Nothing like a bunch of know-nothing net
kooks to set us straight on "terrorisum".

See link
http://www.phaedsys.com/news/index.html

The "kooks" I spend my time with are people at the defence industry and
counter terrorist business.

You have no idea of the legitimacy of the people you exchange posts
with in that newsgroup. You have no idea of the real extent of their
knowledge. You accept what you want to hear.

I do not get my information from them. I discuss things with them but as
I have told you many times my information comes from other sources

However. As I use my real name and am quite well known in the industry I
do know several people in both that NG and this one in real life...

My own personal experiences having years of experience in the Military,

Years of experience in the military doesn't mean squat to me.

OF course it doesn't It is real life and relevant. You don't have an
argument for that so you just ignore it.

It is
what was done and at what level, that makes a difference.

Yes. 90% of the Grunts in the US military don't understand what they are
doing or why. (One of the complaints from the UK military about working
with the US in Iraq)

You don't
impress me as someone who functioned at a level important enough to be
in on much. For all I know, your years in the military could have
been as a cook and all you really know is how to prepare bubble and
squeak for 200.

Not, as you can tell from my company web site it was in the technical
branch. Cooks don't deliver key note speeches at technical conferences


Most here calling me a "kook" don't even use real id's and email
addresses let alone have any real information other than stuff on the TV
and the web.

Speaking of TV, when are you going to reply to my questions about your
"real information" about Fox News? Were your "informed" comments
about the news segments or the political commentary segments? Have
you ever actually watched Fox News? Do you know the difference
between a political commentary segment and a news segment?

Yes I have watched Fox. Also I have seen the comments from CNN, BBC and
others on Fox and their handling of stores.

They have no credibility at all. They do have a political
bias which clouds their view of the media they use for information to
make up for their real lack of any first hand knowledge.

That pretty much sums up my take on you.

The difference is I have shown that I doe move in the circles I claim
and as I am well enough known if I were bull****ting there are several
people here who would have blown the whistle.

On the other hand all we have for you is your "opinion" and that has
equivocated and just plain ignored things you don't like.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , Neil
Harrington writes

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , DRS
writes
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message


[...]

The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection
whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military
force. If you think it does, show me where.

Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no
rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot.
That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years.

Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been
shown
to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by
mistake.

However the experience of several years illegal detention and torture
turned most of them and their families into at least sympathisers of Al-
Qeada.

Worse, it has gotten them used to good food and other amenities that
they'll
have to do without when they go home again. I read recently that the
average
Guantanamo prisoner has gained 20 pounds while there.

That is what happens when you have junk food and not enough exercise.
They may be able to sue the US over that :-)


That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where
no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush
administration fought every step of the way.

And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world.

Until they need help again, and then all is forgiven."We've changed our
minds, Americans are wonderful Send money."

Nope.. Not need the US help for a LONG while. Not since we needed some
cannon fodder in 1994.

However the US has needed the UK's help many times since 1946

It is not acceptable to merely
deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established
by
evidence.

Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible
evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did
not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded.

We "illegally invaded" whom?

Afghanistan and Iraq.

We have been there and are there now trying to
shore up the Afghan government itself, which admittedly seems a hopeless
task, not to mention thankless.

Hopeless because of the way it is done. You need free elections that
includes letting the Taliban run for office (and if they win supporting
them).

As far as "Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US (etc.)" is concerned,
what nonsense.

No it is a FACT

What on earth makes you think the Afghan government could
have made good on any such offer?

According to you the Taliban knew all about OBL so one assume they knew
where he was.

The government's support from its own
people, police and army is marginal to none.

The current government true but the Taliban had a lot of support
initially.

Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little
waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being
summarily executed.

There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and
under
the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and
ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute
those who engaged in it.

Agreed. The right wing in the USA sound just like the N.Koreans, Chinese
and the Israelis.

You have a very strange world view.

Based on travelling in it and talking to people in other countries and
seeing their news.

Tell me how much travel have you done outside North America ?

Next time your country gets its ass in a
sling in some war, I trust you will look elsewhere for help and not across
the big pond to the country that got you through those two big ones. Or do
you suppose the *left* wing in the U.S. will rush to your aid?

We have not needed any help from the US since 1946.... on the other hand
the US has needed the UK's help on many occasions.

What's this, "We" crap? fortunately, there are many Brits that do not
believe the way you do, especially about the US and it's foreign
policies.....I know a number of them. You are the "rogue" thinker in your
country, Chris.