Finding Bulk Chemicals

I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike wrote:

: I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
: example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
: What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

It would depend largely on where "local" is. Here in the Chicago area I would
imagine it would be easier to find a lot of the chemicals locally then in
a farm town with a population of 200.

In any case I would recommend that you take a look at photograpers formulary.
--




-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

In article ,
Mike wrote:

I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

Thanks,
Mike


To quote one of the best of our own.

http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/bulkchem.htm






--
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

Frank Pittel wrote:
Mike wrote:

: I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
: example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
: What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

It would depend largely on where "local" is. Here in the Chicago area I would
imagine it would be easier to find a lot of the chemicals locally then in
a farm town with a population of 200.

Might depend on the chemical I bet. Farmers buy things in bulk all the
time. The question would be what are the alternative uses for the chemicals?
Sodium thiosfulfate is supposedly used to lower clorine levels in large
indoor pools. It's a different form so you need to adjust the amount used.
The grocery store tends to have a few things. I wouldn't be suprised if a
farm supply place had some things to.

Nick

--
---------------------------------------
"Digital the new ice fishing"
---------------------------------------

This is an interesting site with some cross-reference information:

http://www.jackspcs.com/




On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:15:49 GMT, Mike wrote:


I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

Thanks,
Mike


Craig Schroeder
craig nospam craigschroeder com

From my Photo Clips collection. Whatever happened to Maxim Muir?

C.1993 maxim.M.Muir

The Gamma .55 handouts in the past dealt extensively with mixing various
b&w photochemicals from scratch using bulk chemistry. It is a fortunate
thing indeed that many "household"chemicals are also used in photography.

I briefly discussed some of these in handout#2. I wish to enlarge that
discussion further by giving more information on each chemical and the
substantial savings (in most cases ) that can be made by substitution of
"grocery store" quality chemicals.

Let it be said from the onset that I've not encountered any visible
problems in using these lower grade chemicals with either film or print
developers.

Chemicals are available in different levels of purity with designations
such as A.C.S.Reagent (extreme purity-needed for analytical laboratory
procedure to minimize problems with chemical reaction time, precipitation of
trace metals which upset solution percentage concentration etc.).This is the
most expensive grade and is excessive purity for photographic
purposes.N.F.and U.S.P. grade-Below reagent grade-usually the purity of so
called Photo-Grade chemicals as supplied by Eastman Kodak and others.
Technical or Commercial Grade- Adequate for all pedestrian uses. Sometimes,
tech grade chemicals have a different(usually lower) percentage of active
chemical per weight or per volume. Common examples aAmmonia-Lab grade
typically is a 28% solution whilst store ammonia is usually around a 10%
solution. Hydrogen Peroxide-Reagent grade is usually 37% by volume, while
drugstore solutions are a 3% solution. These differences need to be
compensated for when substitutions are made.

For the most part, the reducing agents are the chemicals that are normally
not supplied in tech grade form, N.F. or U.S.P grade being common. This
explains in part why the reducing agents are by far the most expensive
component of any developing formula.

Now to the chemicals themselves.

Acetic Acid

The chemical used universally for preparing stopbath. Acetic acid as
supplied by Kodak in their Indicator Stopbath is so called Glacial or 99%
strength.Acetic acid happens to be another name for vinegar, albeit in a
more highly purified form.Store white distilled vinegar comes in a 5%
solution. To make a working stopbath, take 1 part white vinegar and dilute
with 2.33 parts water. This is a 1.5% solution, typically recommended for
both film and paper. The substitution will save you money if you usually buy
stopbath in one pint concentrates. The one gallon concentrate of Kodak
Indicator is actually cheaper on a per volume basis , but the vinegar is
always available at a moments notice in an emergency.

Borax

Purchased as "20 Mule Team" product, this is the very same Sodium
Tetraborate decahydrate Kodak sells for $8.00 a lb.(as compared to the store
product for $2.50 for five lbs.) Used as a mild accelerator in film
developers (D76). This can also be used in tandem with Sodium Hydroxide (Red
Devil Lye) to make sodium metaborate (aka Kodalk). 1 part sodium hydroxide
mixed in water with five parts borax=1 part sodium metaborate. Used to make
solution B in the PMK formula, as a prewet for film to insure even
development, and as an anti-staining agent with a selenium toning bath. A
useful chemical to have around. It is best to remove it from its box and
store in resealable containers as it gives up its water to the air.

Sodium Hydroxide

See above description of borax. $1.49 a lb vs, $8.00 a lb. for
Kodak product.


Sodium Carbonate

Comes in stores packaged as "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" this is
the decahydrated form of the chemical, meaning it has more molecules of
water attached to its formula then the usually used Sodium Carbonate
Monohydrate. To substitute, multiply the amount of monohydrate specified by
2.33 to arrive at correct amount of washing soda.When buying, look for the
unscented product in the yellow box. Although the perfume in the blue box
variety does not seem to affect print quality, I personally feel funny
processing my "pretty smelling" prints!


Household Ammonia and Hydrogen Peroxide


These are used together to make Kodak's HE-1
hypo eliminating formula. This is designed to convert the difficult to
remove thiosulfate complexes to a sulfate(either sodium or ammonium sulfate,
depending on whether you use a conventional or a rapid fixer.) which is
inert and will not hurt the longevity of the print.

Kodak HE-1

water-500ml.
Hydrogen peroxide 3%(drugstore)-125 ml.
Ammonia-30ml to 70 ml. water to make 3% solution
Combine these in order shown in the water.
Make up to final volume of 1 litre.

After fixing, wash prints about 30 minutes. Place prints in this bath for 6
minutes with agitation . Some feel that by adding 1 gram of potassium
bromide to the formula prevents any unwanted image tone change. Also, some
papers exhibit a yellowing of the whites with use. To clear this, put prints
following HE-1 into a bath of 2% sodium sulfite, or Hypoclear, or Permawash.
Wash prints an additional 30 minutes .


Alum

Cake alum in the grocery stores is aluminum sulfate.Used as a substitute for
potassium alum if you mix your own hardening fixer. Epsom salts (magnesium
sulfate) will also work in this capacity.

Denatured and Ethyl Alcohol

Used to help dissolve chemicals which are recalcitrant, namely Benzotriazole
and Phenidone. The denatured product is fine for this purpose,although be
sure the denaturants used with the available brand are not incompatible with
photographic emulsions.Use 100-200ml.to dissolve the required amount of
phenidone or benzotiazole,and add this to your final stock solution. Pure
ethanol(Everclear Grain Alcohol of frat party fame!)can be used as a film
cleaner. When it is diluted to a 90% solution with distilled water(9 parts
alcohol to 1 part water) it can be used as a rapid film drier. This also
behaves as a surface tension reliever,and thusly it eliminates the need for
Photoflo.

Citric Acid

Used to make odor free stopbath (15 grams to 1 litre water). Also used to
help minimize stains with Amidol paper developers. Available from drug
stores for about $8.00 a pound. Also can be substituted for sodium
metabisulfite in acid non-hardening fixer.

Kodak F24B non-hardening fixer

water-750 ml.
Sodium thiosulfate(penta)-240 grams
Sodium sulfite(anhyd)-10 grams
Citric Acid-22 grams
Water to make 1 litre

Household Bleach (Chlorox etc.)

Used to remove developer oxidation stains from trays, to remove algae from
print washers, and to clear fiberglass drying screens of trace fixer
buildup. Keep away from acid stopbath, unless recreating World War 1 gas
attacks in your darkroom is your idea of fun and excitement!

I may have overlooked a few more, but these are the majority of the most
heavily utilized darkroom chemicals which are as near as your friendly
grocer or pharmacist!

Seong:
Careful, Kodak and the died in the wool archivalists no longer use hypo
eliminator. Sleeping dogs...
-Lew
"seog" wrote in message news:ng0vf.8082$gq4.2782@trndny04...
From my Photo Clips collection. Whatever happened to Maxim Muir?

C.1993 maxim.M.Muir

The Gamma .55 handouts in the past dealt extensively with mixing various
b&w photochemicals from scratch using bulk chemistry. It is a fortunate
thing indeed that many "household"chemicals are also used in photography.

I briefly discussed some of these in handout#2. I wish to enlarge that
discussion further by giving more information on each chemical and the
substantial savings (in most cases ) that can be made by substitution of
"grocery store" quality chemicals.

Let it be said from the onset that I've not encountered any visible
problems in using these lower grade chemicals with either film or print
developers.

Chemicals are available in different levels of purity with designations
such as A.C.S.Reagent (extreme purity-needed for analytical laboratory
procedure to minimize problems with chemical reaction time, precipitation
of trace metals which upset solution percentage concentration etc.).This
is the most expensive grade and is excessive purity for photographic
purposes.N.F.and U.S.P. grade-Below reagent grade-usually the purity of so
called Photo-Grade chemicals as supplied by Eastman Kodak and others.
Technical or Commercial Grade- Adequate for all pedestrian uses.
Sometimes, tech grade chemicals have a different(usually lower) percentage
of active chemical per weight or per volume. Common examples
aAmmonia-Lab grade typically is a 28% solution whilst store ammonia is
usually around a 10% solution. Hydrogen Peroxide-Reagent grade is usually
37% by volume, while drugstore solutions are a 3% solution. These
differences need to be compensated for when substitutions are made.

For the most part, the reducing agents are the chemicals that are normally
not supplied in tech grade form, N.F. or U.S.P grade being common. This
explains in part why the reducing agents are by far the most expensive
component of any developing formula.

Now to the chemicals themselves.

Acetic Acid

The chemical used universally for preparing stopbath. Acetic acid as
supplied by Kodak in their Indicator Stopbath is so called Glacial or 99%
strength.Acetic acid happens to be another name for vinegar, albeit in a
more highly purified form.Store white distilled vinegar comes in a 5%
solution. To make a working stopbath, take 1 part white vinegar and dilute
with 2.33 parts water. This is a 1.5% solution, typically recommended for
both film and paper. The substitution will save you money if you usually
buy stopbath in one pint concentrates. The one gallon concentrate of Kodak
Indicator is actually cheaper on a per volume basis , but the vinegar is
always available at a moments notice in an emergency.

Borax

Purchased as "20 Mule Team" product, this is the very same Sodium
Tetraborate decahydrate Kodak sells for $8.00 a lb.(as compared to the
store product for $2.50 for five lbs.) Used as a mild accelerator in film
developers (D76). This can also be used in tandem with Sodium Hydroxide
(Red Devil Lye) to make sodium metaborate (aka Kodalk). 1 part sodium
hydroxide mixed in water with five parts borax=1 part sodium metaborate.
Used to make solution B in the PMK formula, as a prewet for film to
insure even development, and as an anti-staining agent with a selenium
toning bath. A useful chemical to have around. It is best to remove it
from its box and store in resealable containers as it gives up its water
to the air.

Sodium Hydroxide

See above description of borax. $1.49 a lb vs, $8.00 a lb. for
Kodak product.


Sodium Carbonate

Comes in stores packaged as "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" this
is the decahydrated form of the chemical, meaning it has more molecules of
water attached to its formula then the usually used Sodium Carbonate
Monohydrate. To substitute, multiply the amount of monohydrate specified
by 2.33 to arrive at correct amount of washing soda.When buying, look for
the unscented product in the yellow box. Although the perfume in the blue
box variety does not seem to affect print quality, I personally feel funny
processing my "pretty smelling" prints!


Household Ammonia and Hydrogen Peroxide


These are used together to make Kodak's HE-1
hypo eliminating formula. This is designed to convert the difficult to
remove thiosulfate complexes to a sulfate(either sodium or ammonium
sulfate, depending on whether you use a conventional or a rapid fixer.)
which is inert and will not hurt the longevity of the print.

Kodak HE-1

water-500ml.
Hydrogen peroxide 3%(drugstore)-125 ml.
Ammonia-30ml to 70 ml. water to make 3% solution
Combine these in order shown in the water.
Make up to final volume of 1 litre.

After fixing, wash prints about 30 minutes. Place prints in this bath for
6 minutes with agitation . Some feel that by adding 1 gram of potassium
bromide to the formula prevents any unwanted image tone change. Also, some
papers exhibit a yellowing of the whites with use. To clear this, put
prints following HE-1 into a bath of 2% sodium sulfite, or Hypoclear, or
Permawash. Wash prints an additional 30 minutes .


Alum

Cake alum in the grocery stores is aluminum sulfate.Used as a substitute
for potassium alum if you mix your own hardening fixer. Epsom salts
(magnesium sulfate) will also work in this capacity.

Denatured and Ethyl Alcohol

Used to help dissolve chemicals which are recalcitrant, namely
Benzotriazole and Phenidone. The denatured product is fine for this
purpose,although be sure the denaturants used with the available brand are
not incompatible with photographic emulsions.Use 100-200ml.to dissolve the
required amount of phenidone or benzotiazole,and add this to your final
stock solution. Pure ethanol(Everclear Grain Alcohol of frat party
fame!)can be used as a film cleaner. When it is diluted to a 90% solution
with distilled water(9 parts alcohol to 1 part water) it can be used as a
rapid film drier. This also behaves as a surface tension reliever,and
thusly it eliminates the need for Photoflo.

Citric Acid

Used to make odor free stopbath (15 grams to 1 litre water). Also used to
help minimize stains with Amidol paper developers. Available from drug
stores for about $8.00 a pound. Also can be substituted for sodium
metabisulfite in acid non-hardening fixer.

Kodak F24B non-hardening fixer

water-750 ml.
Sodium thiosulfate(penta)-240 grams
Sodium sulfite(anhyd)-10 grams
Citric Acid-22 grams
Water to make 1 litre

Household Bleach (Chlorox etc.)

Used to remove developer oxidation stains from trays, to remove algae from
print washers, and to clear fiberglass drying screens of trace fixer
buildup. Keep away from acid stopbath, unless recreating World War 1 gas
attacks in your darkroom is your idea of fun and excitement!

I may have overlooked a few more, but these are the majority of the most
heavily utilized darkroom chemicals which are as near as your friendly
grocer or pharmacist!

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:15:49 +0000, Mike wrote:


I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

Retail photo stores that cater to professionals is where I used to buy
all my chemicals, but I haven't mixed from scratch in years. Why don't
you check to see if you have any chemical supply houses nearby? Check
schools', colleges' or universities' photo or chemistry departments. They
might give or sell you small amounts.

Of course, there is always mail order. Try these two places:

http://www.photoformulary.com/
http://www.calumetphoto.com/

USP (United States Pure) is good enough for all photo work.

Stefan

Mike wrote:

... basic bulk chemicals I can find locally.


Make sure to check your local Wine and Beer
Homebrew outlets. Dan

In article ,
Mike writes:

I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For
example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores.
What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite?

Seog has posted a very good summary of most of the chemicals I know can be
obtained locally. I have just a few oddball additions:

- Acetaminophen -- This active ingredient in Tylenol is related to para
aminophenol, the developing agent in Rodinal. It's possible to create a
Rodinal-like developer from acetaminophen, lye, and one or two other
items. Check http://www.apug.org/forums/showthrea...1&page=4&pp=10
for one discussion of this, but there are other formulas.

- Ascorbic acid -- This is used in some newer formulas as a substitute for
hydroquinone. It's sold as vitamin C, but be sure to get the powder, not
the tablets. The cheapest source I know of is not local, though, but is
The Chemistry Store (see below). Erythorbic acid can be used
interchangeably for photographic purposes, and might be just a bit less
expensive. Some formulas call for a less acidic variant, sodium
ascorbate. This can be bought as such or made from ascorbic acid and
sodium bicarbonate (see
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html).

- Boric acid -- This is the main ingredient in some roach powders. Bonide
Roach Powder is supposedly 99% boric acid, but I've not seen it locally,
so I can't verify this from personal experience.

- Coffee -- Several formulas, most of which go by the name "caffeinol,"
use coffee as a developing agent. IIRC, instant crystals are usually
specified.

- Potassium hydroxide -- If you've got any craft stores that cater to
soap makers in your area, you may be able to find potassium hydroxide
there.

- Propylene glycol -- This substance is used as a solvent in a few
formulas, such as Gainer's PC-Glycol. It's the main ingredient in
"eco-friendly" anti-freeze, and I've successfully used that product for
compounding PC-Glycol. An automotive anti-freeze has other components,
though, so using this product as a straight substitute can be a gamble.
I've heard that propylene glycol is also widely used in veterinary
medicine, so you could check with some local vets.

- Sodium carbonate -- As Seog says, this is available in monohydrate form
as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda. I've seen claims that pH Plus (a swimming
pool product) is the anhydrous form.

- Sodium chloride -- This is table salt. Be sure to use the NON-IODIZED
form if you buy it locally for photographic purposes.

- Sodium metaborate -- You can make 100g of this by mixing 69.2g of borax
and 14.5g of sodium hydroxide. (In practice you'd do this in solution,
of course.)

- Sodium thiosulfate -- I keep hearing that this is used as a swimming
pool chemical, but I've not seen it in local Target or similar stores'
swimming pool areas. Maybe a specialty pool shop would have it, but I've
not checked yet.

- Distilled water -- This can be found in grocery stores, drug stores,
etc. Obvious, but worth mentioning.

In practice, unless you use caffeinol or an acetaminophen-based formula,
chances are you won't be able to make developers using nothing but grocery
store chemicals. If you live in or near a big city, you might be able to
find some critical items (metol, etc.) locally. I've used several
mail-order outfits to buy chemistry:

- Photographer's Formulary (http://www.photoformulary.com) -- This place
has the widest selection but also the highest prices. B&H
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com) sells many PF products as "special order"
items, usually at a modest discount.

- Art Craft (http://www.artcraftchemicals.com) -- Next to PF, AC probably
has the best selection of photochemicals, and their prices are usually
lower. They've also got a service where you provide a formula and AC
will send you just the chemicals you need to make one batch. This is
handy if you don't want to buy a lot of something just to try one
formula.

- Digital Truth (http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/rawchemicals.html) --
This outfit has a decent selection and lower prices than PF. They're
also one of the few outfits that has Dimezone S (a phenidone variant
that supposedly has a longer life in solution).

- Tech Chem (http://www.techcheminc.com) -- I suspect this place is
related to Digital Truth; they're located in the same town and have a
very similar product list, although their prices differ slightly.

- The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com) -- This outfit
doesn't specialize in photochemicals, and so they lack a lot of items.
They have the best prices I've seen on most of the items they do carry,
though, such as ascorbic acid, citric acid, potassium carbonate, and
sodium sulfite. Note that their shipping prices are a bit high, and
they've got a per-order handling charge ($3, IIRC). Thus, if you order
from TCS, you should buy a lot of things at once.

The big problem with mail-order is that for cheap chemicals that are used
in large quantities (like sodium thiosulfate), shipping charges can equal
the cost of the chemical itself. Some chemicals (like sodium or potassium
hydroxide) are likely to incur a hazardous product shipping surcharge.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking